Tophat vs ADavidB - Back at It

[Wolfpack_MatrixForum]

David,

One thing about the replacement CVEs. I think I read somewhere that they are designed to replenish planes and not pilots so they have pilots of very low experience so as not to pull pilots from combat commands. I may be completely wrong though.

Paul

[PzB74]

Are you really so sure that you can't fight the Japs in 1942 Dave? Never seen you try [;)]

In all my Allied games I've been rather reckless when called for and each time I manage to surprise the Japs they hurt - big time!
Patiently I feed Warhawks and Wildcats into the fight until the crack Zero Daitais dwindle away....

Your tactic has worked well thus far Dave, but you say the game isn't much fun - so why not throw caution out the window and get at it?
You may risk loosing the war, but it will be a helluva ride [:D]

Hope you don't mind me being blunt, but you know what Churchill said after the landings in Anzio bogged down because of an over cautious Allied commander?
“I had hoped that we were hurling a wildcat onto the shore, but all we got was a stranded whale.” - Winston Churchill

[BLurking]

David,

I think there's entirely too much focus on points by the players. As the Japanese, I just try to work out a strategy to survive past Aug '45 - and as the Allies, how to crush the Japanese before that date. PzB's game is a very poor example, since he's freed most of his Asian troops to the rest of the Pacific. My experience has been that the Japanese are stretched much too thin, but the Allied player doesn't know this until he starts probing those defensive lines. Part of the joy of PBEM is the fact that you're playing a person, not the AI. So psychology plays a factor. Right now, you've been the whipping boy for so long - this and PzB have stuck you into the defensive mindset. A good offensive will help change your outlook, and may change the outlook of your opponent.
At this stage of the war, the US forces took quite a beating at Guadalcanal, but stuck to their guns. In the end, the Japanese were broken - but it was painful getting there (the Allies had what, maybe one carrier left by the end?). Brace yourself for some losses, and go in guns blazing. With proper planning, I think you'll be suprised how successful you are.

Brian

And if you'd like a taste of Allied firepower, I'd be happy to let you beat up on me in the '43 scenario. Might be interesting to see how quickly the Allied forces can advance with a historical setup for the Japanese vs. the more aggressive positions that most players end up with in PBEM games.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

ORIGINAL: BLurking

David,

Relax - sounds like you are winning and don't know it yet [:)].
You've kept his score low, so you must have preserved much of your starting assets. The problem seems to be that BOTH scores are pretty low, thus the proximity (relatively speaking) to the magic 4-1 ratio. Time for you to pick a safe objective, and force the issue. Attrition battles favor the Allies, but you can't attrit (sp?) if you don't engage. Start prepping for an offensive now, you'll have the necessary assets (LR fighters, etc.) in place by the time your LCUs have enough PPs.

End of '42 is the time for the Allies to quit worrying about IJN offensives, and make the IJN worry about Allied offensives...

Brian

Oh, and I frequently use Chinese (and especially Manchuko garrison) LCU objectives to 'spoof' the Allied sigint. I'm sure that's what your opponent is up to.

Thanks for the comments Brian. But I'm still not sure that an "attrition" strategy is a viable way for an Allied player to win. Certainly I haven't seen many AARs here where the Allied player has started to close in on an Allied Auto Victory.

My gut feeling, from playing this game since it first came out, and from reading many AARs, is that the Allied player has to crush the Japanese player, which means crushing the KB, then play "Pacman" with the Japanese bases. The key is - how to crush the KB without losing too many points and losing too much offensive capability?

I'm also not certain that slugging it out on low value outer perimeter bases is such a good idea either. I want to bypass those heavily fortified atolls and go onto attack non-atoll bases that are worth more points. But it all gets down to control of the air. Tophat can put up 600 first class long range fighters right now. The reality is that I won't be able to match that until mid-1943, and then only if I don't fritter away my planes first.

But I've also got to be able to survive all the little things that cumulatively go wrong with the Game. If my ships don't upgrade to get radar, then they are ships that are useless to me. If my replacement aircraft come in with experience 40 pilots then there are a bunch of planes that I can't send into battle. If it rains 90% of the time over my bases then I can neither train my pilots nor fly my planes.

And when it gets down to it, I'm tired of playing turn after turn, month after month (of real time) and not being able to commit my forces with a good hope of success except in few very limited situations. I don't find the Game Design "fun" to play as an Allied player. I'm playing it still out of stubborness, to see if it really can be won, but I don't believe it can be.

And I still have to be terribly careful. Sure, I've got all my starting forces, but so does Tophat. And PzB and others have shown how the Japanese player can keep on with successful offensives well into 1943.

Once again, thanks for the comments. I'm sorry that I'm blowing steam so often here, but this is so close to being a great game that it kills me to stumble into the game's shortcomings time after time.

Dave Baranyi

It really sucks not getting those four Essex class CVs because you did not lose CVs early. Of all things I think the respawn design makes me laugh/cry the most.

[PzB74]

Each time I see your name Ron I think of non respawning Allied carriers [;)]

[frank1970]

Really, I think about too successfull ASW and abundance of Japanese supply!

[Speedysteve]

Amongst supply 'issues', air model 'issues', naval 'issues'...game 'issues'.......[;)]

[saj42]

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

October 21 -

Ah, the "wonders" of the @#$%^&* database and data structure in this game. On top of the return of Bad Weather Everywhere, my new air replenishment CVE is taking on pilots with experience of 40!!!!!!! Where does the Game find them? I have 600+ USN pilots who are supposed to have 55+ experience.
Dave Baranyi

When my first Replenishment CVE arrived the pilots had 35 Exp [:@][:@][:@]
One excuse I heard was that they are only ferry-pilots, for taking the a/c to the CVs. I'm loath to use them yet as, knowing how this game likes to screw us, the pilots will transfer too - NO WAY do I want 35 Exp pilots in my VF Squadrons with high 70s av exp.
I've sat these CVEs in West Coast on 100% training, after a couple of weeks their exp was 40+ (they are getting there slowly[;)])

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Frank

Really, I think about too successfull ASW and abundance of Japanese supply!

Supply period! Japanese, Allied, whatever...[:D] OK, so I tend to bombard the forums about these "issues". Obviously I have too much supply.[:D]

[Speedysteve]

An AAR is not the place for this but people have mentioned CVE 'R' grous...

I've recently found a problem with my one's!

I've been using CVE Nassau in a replenishment role. The problem is that her groups are not filling up when they should be (replacements on, 20K+ supply etc). Is very weird. MichaelM looked at the save and when he ran it on his machine it worked! But not in Fabertong and my game.........

[ADavidB]

October 22 -

Tophat's aerial ASW is really on the ball nowadays. The poor Truant, having gotten past Singapore despite constant air and naval attacks almost made it to deep water in the South China Sea when a Sally on ASW patrol whacked the sub hard. So the Truant is now going to try to limp to Australia, although with a floatation damage level of 50 I don't expect it to make it. My search planes hardly ever spot a Japanese sub, let alone hit them. Now that I'm putting out my subs for the first time in months the Japanese aerial ASW is finding them as soon as they leave port, and sometimes in port too. Why do I get the feeling that yet another potential "weapon" has been removed from the Allied arsenal?

Tophat is being very open with his intentions to capture Chungking and Noumea and win on Auto Victory. He is even criticizing my strategy and saying that if he hadn't made some mistakes in moving troops he would have already won. Tophat obviously hasn't played enough games as the Allies against good players to understand how the game is really designed. Throwing away Allied forces in hopeless causes in 1942 is no way to try to win the game for the Allies.

In any event, I am starting to move the US Pacific Fleet into the South Pacific in order to be able to convincingly attack any Japanese movement into the region. I had deliberately left most of my CENPAC, SOPAC and SWPAC heavy bombers in the West Coast up until now and instead had moved all the medium bombers from those HQs to the Hawaiian Islands. But I've now moved all the Heavies to the H.I. and am starting to move my Mitchells and Marauders into the South Pacific. I want the medium bombers there because they can operate at full potential from level 4 air bases and while I have plenty of those, I don't have plenty of level 5 bases around. I've also started to move my P-40 units into the South Pacific to back up my Marine fighters. In addition, I've also got a number of Marine Dive Bombers in the region and my first Marine Avenger squadron is just about there.

In China it is obvious that Tophat intends to break through at Hengchow, and as he pushes towards Chungking, make a break through at Sian so that he can bring the 30 units that are at Sian to join the 20 units that are at Hengchow. I've done as best as possible up until now by rotating units in and out of my forward bases, but the fundamental problem remains; my Front Line Bases are at the end of long and limited supply lines and are out of range of my air power, while Tophat's attacking forces are close to their supply lines and their air cover. Tophat also outnumbers me at the Front in China in shear quantity of air bases by about three or four to one.

Therefore I am starting a major withdrawal from my front line bases. First off I am starting to withdraw from the Northeast. Although those bases have their own supply source and Kungchang has some of my best, strongest and most experienced troops, if they are cut off then Tophat can bomb them into oblivion at his leisure. To give you an idea, this turn Tophat sent over 300 planes to bomb Hengchow while still sending nearly a hundred more to bomb Sian.

Once my northernmost troops are on the road I will start to pull back from all of the other frontline bases simultaneously. My troops are currently still in good shape so they ought to be able to pull be quickly before Tophat can attack and send them back defeated. If I can get those good troops from Kungchang and the reasonably good troops from Sian safely back to Chungking I ought to be able to hold there because it is within range of my forces in India for support and supplies. This is not a move that I want to make, but I can't see any other way to avoid being defeated piecemeal in China.

In other news, Tophat moved more fighters into Rangoon and actually sent an escorted bomber attack against the Andaman Islands air fields! I should send a DD force to the Andaman Islands just to make Tophat think that I am doing a Fast Transport run and keep him hitting the Islands instead of Akyab. My Brit Base Force is still crawling along the road to Akyab at a snail's pace.

Speaking of "Waiting for Godot", the Pennsylvania sat in Seattle Harbor again this turn and remained at system damage 3 without upgrading. There are no other damaged ships in the port and there haven't been any for game-months, so I'm not sure what the Game is waiting for this time. I'm still betting that the upgrade for the Penn is buggered up, but maybe the Game is just wasting time like it did with the West Virginia. I'll wait another game-week or so, and if nothing happens I'll send the Penn to San Fran to see if a "miracle" happens".

Dave Baranyi

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: Wolfpack

David,

One thing about the replacement CVEs. I think I read somewhere that they are designed to replenish planes and not pilots so they have pilots of very low experience so as not to pull pilots from combat commands. I may be completely wrong though.

Paul

I'd like to believe that is the case, but the last thing I want to do is replace 70-80 exp pilots in the middle of a battle with 40 exp "victims"... [;)]

For now I'm leaving the CVE in port on the West Coast. I'll let some other "hero" try this out and report back on it...[:D]

Thanks -

Dave Baranyi

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: PzB

Are you really so sure that you can't fight the Japs in 1942 Dave? Never seen you try [;)]

In all my Allied games I've been rather reckless when called for and each time I manage to surprise the Japs they hurt - big time!
Patiently I feed Warhawks and Wildcats into the fight until the crack Zero Daitais dwindle away....

Your tactic has worked well thus far Dave, but you say the game isn't much fun - so why not throw caution out the window and get at it?
You may risk loosing the war, but it will be a helluva ride [:D]

Hope you don't mind me being blunt, but you know what Churchill said after the landings in Anzio bogged down because of an over cautious Allied commander?
“I had hoped that we were hurling a wildcat onto the shore, but all we got was a stranded whale.” - Winston Churchill

John, I don't want to "lose" the game, I want to win it. Throwing my forces away in 1942 is the best way to prevent myself from winning.

And Churchill needs to be remembered more for Galipoli and the Greek disaster than for his quips...

Cheers -

Dave Baranyi

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: BLurking

David,

I think there's entirely too much focus on points by the players. As the Japanese, I just try to work out a strategy to survive past Aug '45 - and as the Allies, how to crush the Japanese before that date. PzB's game is a very poor example, since he's freed most of his Asian troops to the rest of the Pacific. My experience has been that the Japanese are stretched much too thin, but the Allied player doesn't know this until he starts probing those defensive lines. Part of the joy of PBEM is the fact that you're playing a person, not the AI. So psychology plays a factor. Right now, you've been the whipping boy for so long - this and PzB have stuck you into the defensive mindset. A good offensive will help change your outlook, and may change the outlook of your opponent.
At this stage of the war, the US forces took quite a beating at Guadalcanal, but stuck to their guns. In the end, the Japanese were broken - but it was painful getting there (the Allies had what, maybe one carrier left by the end?). Brace yourself for some losses, and go in guns blazing. With proper planning, I think you'll be suprised how successful you are.

Brian

And if you'd like a taste of Allied firepower, I'd be happy to let you beat up on me in the '43 scenario. Might be interesting to see how quickly the Allied forces can advance with a historical setup for the Japanese vs. the more aggressive positions that most players end up with in PBEM games.

Brian - thanks for the offer for a 1943 game, but I won't start any more games until I see which bugs the Powers That Be finally fix in the eventual (final?) revision.

As for offensives - I still don't have sufficient air power to crush the KB in the Pacific or the Japanese Army Air in the Far East. I won't move until I can do that. There is no reason for me to do so. But I really appreciate the encouragement.

Thanks again -

Dave Baranyi

[ADavidB]

It really sucks not getting those four Essex class CVs because you did not lose CVs early. Of all things I think the respawn design makes me laugh/cry the most.

Ron - right now I'd happily trade off those 4 Essex CVs for the ability to upgrade the planes that I want to upgrade. It makes no sense that I have to leave the Chinese flying garbage until mid-1943 when I have 300 - 400 each of P-39s and A-20s, etc. And don't get me started on the other upgrade paths.

The ability of the Japanese player to build whatever he wants while the Allies are stuck to a totally brain-dead perception of what "historically" happened to upgrades is total garbage and only gives the Japanese side yet another fantasy advantage.

My great fear is that by the time my game reaches Spring 1943 the new upgrade will be out and The Living Brain Dead will have neutered Corsairs too...

Thanks as usual for your comments -

Dave Baranyi

[ADavidB]

When my first Replenishment CVE arrived the pilots had 35 Exp
One excuse I heard was that they are only ferry-pilots, for taking the a/c to the CVs. I'm loath to use them yet as, knowing how this game likes to screw us, the pilots will transfer too - NO WAY do I want 35 Exp pilots in my VF Squadrons with high 70s av exp.
I've sat these CVEs in West Coast on 100% training, after a couple of weeks their exp was 40+ (they are getting there slowly

Smart man - I don't blame you at all!!!!!

BTW - a very odd thing happened when I sailed the CVE from San Fran to LA - the number of planes on board doubled while the ship was sailing, but once I disbanded it in LA the number went back to the original 24 each... That doesn't give me a lot of confidence in whatever is supposed to happen...

Thanks -

Dave Baranyi

[ADavidB]

Really, I think about too successfull ASW and abundance of Japanese supply!

I never find a problem with Allied supply other than in China. But then, both sides probably have more supply than is good for the play of the game.

My major gripe is the Japanese being able to bring thousands of planes to a given spot...

Thanks -

Dave Baranyi

[ADavidB]

October 23 -

The Pennsylvania sat at system damage 3 for the third day in a row in Seattle Harbor this turn. Currently Seattle has greater than 3 times more repair points than the durability rating of the Pennsylvania, so there is no good reason why the ship won't repair and or upgrade. Having this sort of function controlled by a random number generator is idiotic beyond belief. (That's assuming that the OOB isn't wrong as it was in earlier versions of the game.) Oh well, I'll give it a few more days then if nothing happens I'll sail the ship down to San Fran to see if a "change of scenery" helps.

Tophat's pilots in China aren't getting much of a change in scenery - they are still bombing Hengchow, Sian and Kungchang by the hundreds every day. I got one nuisance raid off on the troops at Hengchow, and then I moved my bombers again. Today I'll try a nuisance raid on the Japanese troops at Sian.

Tophat sent a couple of MSWs to Lautem to try to clear the rest of the mines that the Argo left there a few game days ago. The MSWs were less effective than the APDs that stumbled into the mine field first.

Otherwise, I'm just moving ships, planes and troops.

Dave Baranyi

[ADavidB]

October 24 -

Bit things are afoot and I'm taking the "in for a penny, in for a pound" approach to my "prevent defense". This was a rainy turn all over but it didn't stop Tophat from hitting Hengchow, Sian and Kungchang hard from the air, nor my Wellingtons from hitting Mandalay equally hard from the air. But the most ominous action was the following:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Hengchow

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 234325 troops, 2129 guns, 148 vehicles

Defending force 99128 troops, 307 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 5)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 4

Japanese ground losses:
4119 casualties reported
Guns lost 107
Vehicles lost 6

Allied ground losses:
2060 casualties reported
Guns lost 39
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've got reinforcements on the way, but they won't make it in time; Hengchow is destined to fall within one or two more deliberate attacks. So I've put Mao in charge and we are starting a very "Long March". I have ordered all troops to pull back from Wuchow, Kweilin, Hengchow, Ichang, Sining and Lanchow. (Actually, the Base Force in Sining has already pulled out.) The troops from Wuchow and Kweilin are going to Kweiyang. The rest of the troops are heading to Chungking. Once the troops from Sining and Lanchow get past Kungchang I'm pulling out of Kungchang too.

I'll lose a lot of base points here, particularly in Sining and Lanchow. But I can recapture bases and I can't recapture lost LCU points. With this strategic withdrawal I believe that I will have the ability to stop the Japanese in China and protect Chungking while still tying up a huge amount of the Chinese army.

Now, of course, the other effect of these surrendered points is that Noumea becomes even more critical to hold. I definitely can't afford to give up 1200 points from my total any longer. So my force redeployment in the South Pacific continues in a very big way.

Finally, Tophat has hit the air fields at Akyab again and my Brit Base Force is still a couple of weeks away on the "Idiot's Dream Highway" thanks to the mile-a-day rule. I can't afford to let Tophat close the airfield at Akyab before I can get engineers in place so I'm making a move that I didn't want to make; I'm moving in base force troops by air and putting the 23rd FG on LR CAP over Akyab. I've also sent a TF of DDs towards Andaman Islands in the hopes of distracting Tophat a little, but that's unlikely to work much once his Anns and Nells run into 70 P-40Bs over Akyab. I've also moved my B-24s to Chandpur even though they aren't fully repaired. I'll send them to hit Rangoon regardless the turn after next.

Once I get some air support units in Akyab I'm moving a half dozen Spitfire squadrons in for a "do or die" defense. I need to buy some time. I've also got my fast Brit battleships in port nearby, ready to either come out and defend Akyab or to do a bombardment raid on Rangoon if Tophat fills it up with bombers. It looks as if Tophat will finally get some of the "fireworks" that he has been looking for in this game for such a long time.

Dave Baranyi

[ADavidB]

October 25 -

Tophat is starting his big push in China. A crack Japanese infantry division crossed the river on the road to Chungking, shock attacked the Chinese unit that had been sitting there, and forced the Chinese troops back along the road to Kweiyang. Tophat is now prepared to try to rush some armored units along the road to Chungking. But I have another Chinese unit in the next hex up the road, and this unit isn't worn out like the first one. Also, Tophat will finally be operating off of the railroad system and on the country roads that make it so difficult to move between the Chinese hinterland and the front line bases.

My troops in Hengchow are ready to move out. The question remains - will the Game engine allow them to? There are two unoccupied hexes to the rear of Hengchow across the river. If any of the more normal, "sane" types of Zones of Control apply then my troops ought to be able to escape. But "Fantasy in the Pacific" has its own rules, and there is no guarantee of anything until it happens, particularly as far as land combat and land movement go. In any event, I've brought all the Chinese bombers to Chungking in an attempt to hit that Japanese unit to the south. It's a long chance and the airfield at Chungking will probably just get hammered, but it's worth a shot.

What was odd this turn was that there was a very small "deliberate" attack on Hengchow this turn:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Hengchow

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 8770 troops, 157 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 95384 troops, 240 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 4)

Japanese ground losses:
89 casualties reported
Guns lost 8

Allied ground losses:
313 casualties reported
Guns lost 4
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It appears that Tophat may have forgotten to turn off the attack by one of his units, but it's equally odd that there wasn't a bombardment attack either. Never-the-less, as one can readily see, my troops are at the end of their strength as to lose so many troops while repulsing a 0:1 attack. BTW - Hengchow, Sian and Kungchang all got hit hard from the air again this turn. All the rest of my withdrawals are working as planned.

Meanwhile in Burma Tophat didn't send any bombers against Akyab, but he did send a recon flight that was chased by the 23rd FG boys on LR CAP. So Tophat know knows that I'm putting planes into the air and this turn he has around 70 fighters and 40 bombers in Rangoon. My guess is that he will try to sweep and bomb Akyab because he really, really wants to deplete my better fighter groups in the CBI.

But I've got my "Trafalgar" plan in operation and have the following things underway:

1 - My air drop of air support personal worked and I now have enough in Akyab to maintain fighters. I am sending the rest of that particular base force by land and have moved my transports to another base from which they will fly supplies into Akyab.

2 - With the air support in place I've put my five best Spitfire squadrons in Akyab at 90% CAP. The 23rd FG is back on local CAP in Dacca in order to rest up.

3 - Now that Chandpur is a level 5 air base I moved my B-24 group into it and assigned them to attack the airfield at Rangoon at 6000 feet. Half of the AVG is now equipped with P-38s so I moved them to Chandpur too and they are on 100% escort. I'm hoping that Tophat sends most of his fighters on escort against Akyab and my bombers catch his airfield lightly protected.

4 - I set the Brit fast BBs and heavy cruisers at Diamond Harbor on a full speed bombardment mission to Rangoon. If the Spits can keep the airfield at Akyab open I'll bring the 23rd FG in, split it, and set part of it to LR CAP over the bombardment TF.

5 - I formed the Brit carriers and light cruisers into an Air Combat TF and have it racing at full speed towards Rangoon. All of the fighters are Seafires! If Tophat tries to bring some ships in to attack Akyab I'll have the carriers intercept them. If he doesn't I'll have the carriers attack the airfield at Rangoon. (Or Moulmein which is also now showing an "aircraft" symbol too.)

In any event, I haven't heard from Tophat for a couple of hours, which may mean that he is busy with Real Life, or may also mean that my plan worked and he is "ticked off". Whenever his plans work Tophat sends his turns back in a hurry. When his plans don't work he tends to take much longer to look over everything.

Oh yes, one more thing. The Pennsylvania finally upgraded this turn and has its radar and AA upgrades. So the OOB isn't broken, thank goodness. All this wasted time was just another one of the incomprehensibly nonsensical design decisions.

Dave Baranyi