Moderator: Shannon V. OKeets
I think that you should simply use a default close to the Classic version of the game for the "Novice Default", and you should use a default close to a full Deluxe version of the game for the "Experienced Default".What I would like your help on is deciding which options should be set for novices and which for experienced players.
ORIGINAL: Froonp
Another remark :
You missed the Supply Rules Tab screen shot in your screenshots.
I've already asked, and you already answered, but it is a long time ago and I do not remember what was said.CWIF optional rules that are not in WIF FE but will be kept in MWIF 1:
(...)
Scrap units - play testers requested this be optional to simplify play (Prod. Rules),
It should be written in the name of this option that it is the second half of the Engineer rule here. It should be called : "Engineer Repairs". I think that all WiF players would understand that.(...)
Facility repair - separated from Option #7 at request of play testers (Other).
Some weeks (months ?) ago, I was asking you what this option was. You couldn't answer because you did not know, but I've found it in the old rulebooks. Let me talk about this a littleCWIF optional rules that were discontinued in WIF FE and will not be included in MWIF
(...)
Territorial conquest (Other Rules).
ORIGINAL: Froonp
Just a quick remark :
Your option screens seem to miss the Guard Banner Armies.
They should be in the Additionnal Units tab.
ORIGINAL: Froonp
Also, I've found out things about the below :
I've already asked, and you already answered, but it is a long time ago and I do not remember what was said.CWIF optional rules that are not in WIF FE but will be kept in MWIF 1:
(...)
1 - Scrap units - play testers requested this be optional to simplify play (Prod. Rules),
Anyway, Scrapping never was, and is not, an optional rule in WiF FE.
It should be written in the name of this option that it is the second half of the Engineer rule here. It should be called : "Engineer Repairs". I think that all WiF players would understand that.(...)
2 - Facility repair - separated from Option #7 at request of play testers (Other).
Some weeks (months ?) ago, I was asking you what this option was. You couldn't answer because you did not know, but I've found it in the old rulebooks. Let me talk about this a littleCWIF optional rules that were discontinued in WIF FE and will not be included in MWIF
(...)
3 - Territorial conquest (Other Rules).
This was an option in the rule before RAW7 (August 2004), but it is now not an option any more, it is part of RAW (in 13.7.1, under the Territories heading).
It was Option 49 and it said :
"You also conquer a territory if you control every port and coastal city in every sea area the territory has a coastal hex in."
I repeat, it was option 49, now it is included in the RAW, so it must be included in MWiF.
Only the words "Option 49" are removed from the rulebook.
I think that Chris told you that it was dropped because I sent him a list of the rule modifications that happened between RAW6 and RAW7, and this one was no longer an option, it was RAW.
Indeed now you say it this way, you're right.1 - Would you agree that deciding which units to scrap is difficult? That it requires a thorough understanding of each unit's strengths and weaknesses in various combat circumstances? That it requires you to anticipate which units you are going to want to build over the course of the war? That you know what additional units are going to be added to your force pools in the coming years? That you anticipate what kind of war the enemy is going to engage in: land, naval, or air?
This is the very first decision a player is asked to make in WIF and it requires the player to have an enormous amount of knowledge to make it intelligently. It is like asking a chess player to decide whether he is going to castle long or short and wehther he is going to fiancetto the corresponding bishop, before he is allowed to move a piece. If that doesn't make sense, that's precisely my point.
What I expect to do if the player does not select Scrap Units, is to have the AI Assistant make those decisions for the player. From the novice player's point of view, no scrapping of units is ever mentioned or discussed. It simply goes on behind the scenes.
Yepeee !!!!2 - Yes.
OK, you're right [:D]3 - Yes, I consider this a standard rule and that there is no need for it to be mentioned in the context of optional rules. I do take exception to the phrase ".. so it must be included in MWiF." ".. should be included ..." is a better.
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
1 - Would you agree that deciding which units to scrap is difficult? That it requires a thorough understanding of each unit's strengths and weaknesses in various combat circumstances? That it requires you to anticipate which units you are going to want to build over the course of the war? That you know what additional units are going to be added to your force pools in the coming years? That you anticipate what kind of war the enemy is going to engage in: land, naval, or air?
This is the very first decision a player is asked to make in WIF and it requires the player to have an enormous amount of knowledge to make it intelligently. It is like asking a chess player to decide whether he is going to castle long or short and wehther he is going to fiancetto the corresponding bishop, before he is allowed to move a piece. If that doesn't make sense, that's precisely my point.
What I expect to do if the player does not select Scrap Units, is to have the AI Assistant make those decisions for the player. From the novice player's point of view, no scrapping of units is ever mentioned or discussed. It simply goes on behind the scenes.
[/quote]ORIGINAL: Froonp
Pro Axis Options :
7 Engineers
14 Synthetic Oil Plants
20 Surprised ZoCs **
24 Frogmen
25 SCS Transport
36 Large ATRs
39 Blitz Bonus **
40 Chinese Attack Weakness
42 Allied Combat Friction
51 En-route Aircraft Interception
59 Flying Bombs
60 Kamikazes
67 City Based Volunteers **
** my own judgement, because this option did not exist when the poll was conducted.
Note : Here are the Poll author's notes about how it was done (I do not remember the name of the author) :
*****************************************************
The numerical ratings are on a scale of 1 to 5. Rules with low values favor Axis and rules with high values favor the Allies.
I took the ratings, threw out one highest and one lowest and divided the sum of the remainder by the total number of remaining responses.
A - Rule favors Allies =>3.5
X - Rule favors Axis =<2.5
*****************************************************
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
[
This is a new subject for me, but as a statistician and market research analyst, it is familiar territory. The poll that was conducted appears to have been asking for whether an option is biased towards one side or the other. It does not appear to have attempted to measure the impact of the optional rule. Kamikazes, for instance do not happen very often during a game even if the rule is included. Allied Combat Friction happens frequently and occurs throughout the entire war.
I think what would be of use is some kind of scale (preferably in terms of Victory Points at game's end) for taking each option. I have a vague recollection of having seen something along those lines somewhere.
The idea of informing the player about the subtleties of the rules options in terms of impact on helping or hurting one side or the other seems out of scope for MWIF. This is controversial stuff and best left to written articles on the game rather than incorporated/standardized/blessed by MWIF. If we do decide to include this topic in the game, it belongs in the Player's manual, not as part of the start game screen.
I think you're right.The idea of informing the player about the subtleties of the rules options in terms of impact on helping or hurting one side or the other seems out of scope for MWIF. This is controversial stuff and best left to written articles on the game rather than incorporated/standardized/blessed by MWIF. If we do decide to include this topic in the game, it belongs in the Player's manual, not as part of the start game screen.
ORIGINAL: JanSorensen
Its interesting that the multitude of options in WiF being one of its strong points as a board game may turn out to be a weak point as a computer game.
When you play a board game you are likely to play the same group of people alot - adding only 1 or 2 new players to an existing group at a time and those new players will then just accept the group's set of optionals or atleast the group will evolve together.
When you play a computer game you are more likely to play the game solo getting used to your own personally preferred set of optionals. When you find opponents you are also more likely to be drawing from a larger but far less steady pool of people. This means that getting a game started will often begin with a far longer debate about which optionals to use. It will also mean that not everyone will be able to play WiF against each other simply because they want too different sets of optionals.
This may end up a non-issue if an enormous number of copies are sold to people that play actively - or it could fragmetise the players wanting to play across the net (pbem or tcp) to a degree that the game community gets below critical mass.
Having a reasonable set of options be standard might help - but the problem is defining what is reasonable. I dare say that asking the posters that are active here is likely to lead to an overburdening of optionals compared to what might be more commonly reasonable
ORIGINAL: wfzimmermanORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
This is a new subject for me, but as a statistician and market research analyst, it is familiar territory. The poll that was conducted appears to have been asking for whether an option is biased towards one side or the other. It does not appear to have attempted to measure the impact of the optional rule. Kamikazes, for instance do not happen very often during a game even if the rule is included. Allied Combat Friction happens frequently and occurs throughout the entire war.
I think what would be of use is some kind of scale (preferably in terms of Victory Points at game's end) for taking each option. I have a vague recollection of having seen something along those lines somewhere.
The idea of informing the player about the subtleties of the rules options in terms of impact on helping or hurting one side or the other seems out of scope for MWIF. This is controversial stuff and best left to written articles on the game rather than incorporated/standardized/blessed by MWIF. If we do decide to include this topic in the game, it belongs in the Player's manual, not as part of the start game screen.
Steve -- the chart I remember from LoC did quantify the impact in terms of some units (victory hexes??) and was by Harry, so it has somewhat more weight. And I almost agree with you that subtleties of rule options should be out of scope for MWIF. But they are just too confusing for a newb without providing some guidance. What I would suggest is that you provide hyperlinks from the options tabs to external sources of guidance like the WiF list or perhaps a page or two created by the test team.
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Here are the final list of optional rules for MWIF product 1. I apologize for the weird spacing - I have trouble getting it to accept my use of tabs.
Optional Rules
(as of February 6, 2006)
I. Add-ons to the World in Flames Standard Game
MWIF Product 1 will include the add-ons:
Africa Aflame
Asia Aflame
Carrier Planes in Flames
Convoys in Flames
Cruisers in Flames
Mech in Flames
Planes in Flames
Ships in Flames
*** The Guards banner armies (option 70), and Chinese warlords (option 71) will be included even though these technically are part of Leaders in Flames and Politics in Flames respectively.
MWIF Product 1 will NOT include the add-ons:
Leaders in Flames
America in Flames
Patton in Flames
Politics in Flames
Days of Decision III
II. Changes from CWIF Optional Rules to MWIF Optional Rules
CWIF optional rules that are standard rules in WIF FE and will be standard rules in MWIF
Vlassov - replaced by city based volunteers, and
Lend lease (Supply Rules),
CV strategic bombing (Air Rules),
Japanese carrier range (Air Rules),
Carrier plane fighters - needs updating to reflect changes (Air Rules).
CWIF optional rules that are not in WIF FE but will be kept in MWIF 1:
Fog of war (Other),
Scrap units - play testers requested this be optional to simplify play (Prod. Rules),
Limited view of opponent’s production (Prod. Rules), and
Facility repair - separated from Option #7 at request of play testers (Other).
CWIF optional rules that were discontinued in WIF FE and will not be included in MWIF
Separate die rolls on land combat table (Land Rules), and
Territorial conquest (Other Rules).
III. Options - Listed by Rules as Written (RAW) NumberCode: Select all
CWIF MWIF Option Page Option Number and Name WIF FE Rules Reference NA Not App. 1. African & Scandinavian maps 2.1.1, 2.1.4, 2.4.2 Yes Add. Units 2. Divisions 2.2, 2.3.1, 9.5, 11.4.5, 11.14, 11.15, 11.16.1, 11.16.5, 22.4.1 Yes Add. Units 3. Artillery 2.2, 2.3.1, 11.2, 11.5.9, 11.5.10, 11.8, 11.9, 11.11.2, 11.16.4, 11.16.5, 16.1, 16.3, 22.4.2 NA Not App. 4. Pacific & Asian map ZOCs 2.2 Yes Add. Units 5. Fortifications 2.3.1, 4.2, 11.16.1, 22.4.9 Yes Add. Units 6. Supply units 2.3.1, 2.4.2, 11.11.2, 11.12, 22.4.10 Yes Add. Units 7. Engineers 2.3.1, 11.11.2, 22.2, 22.4.1 Yes Air Rules 8. Flying boats 2.3.1, 8.2.9 Yes Standard 9. Ships In Flames units 2.3.1, 4.1.4, 4.2, 11.3, 11.5.8, 13.3.2, 13.5.1, 13.6.1, 13.6.5, 14.4.1, 22.4.7 Yes Add. Units 10. Territorials 11.16.5, 2.4.2, 4.2, 17.3, 18.1, 19.4, 22.4.5 Yes Supply 11. Limited overseas supply 2.4.2, 22.4.11 Yes Supply 12. Limited supply across straits 2.4.2, 11.10, 13.6.1 Yes Supply 13. HQ supply and support 2.4.3, 11.16.3 Yes Add. Units 14. Synthetic oil plants 4.2, 13.5.1, 22.4.11 Yes Other 15. Off-city reinforcement 4.2 No Other 16. Recruitment limits 4.2 Yes Land Rules 17. HQ movement 11.11.2 Yes Naval Rules 18. Bottomed ships 11.2 Yes Naval Rules 19. In the presence of the enemy 11.4.2 No Land Rules 20. Surprised ZOCs 2.2 No No 21. Task forces (hidden) 11.4.3 No Air Rules 22. Bounce combat 14.3.3 Partial Add. Units 23. V-weapons and Atomic bombs 11.7.1, 11.8 Partial Add. Units 24. Frogmen 22.4.3 Yes Naval Rules 25. SCS transport 11.4.5, 11.14 Yes Naval Rules 26. Amphibious rules 11.13, 11.14, 22.4.12 Yes Naval Rules 27. Optional CV searching 11.5.5 Yes Add. Units 28. Pilots 4.2, 11.2, 11.5.8, 11.5.11, 13.6.5, 13.6.7, 13.7.1, 14.6, 19.1, 22.4.19 No Prod. Rules 29. Food in Flames 13.6.1 Yes Prod. Rules 30. Factory construction and destruction 11.7, 13.6.8, 22.2, 22.4.11 Yes Prod. Rules 31. Saving build points and resources 11.7, 13.1, 13.3.2, 13.5.1, 13.6.3, 13.6.8 Yes Air Rules 32. Carpet bombing 11.8, 14.6 Yes Air Rules 33. Tank busters 11.9, 11.16.4 Yes Land Rules 34. Motorized movement rates 11.11.2 Yes Air Rules 35. Bomber (& no paradrop) ATRs 11.12, 11.15, 11.18.1 Yes Air Rules 36. Large ATRs 11.12, 11.18.1, 11.18.4 Yes Land Rules 37. Railway movement bonus 11.11.2 Yes Naval Rules 38. Defensive shore bombardment 11.16.2, 15.1 No Land Rules 39. Blitz Bonus 11.16.1, 11.16.5 Yes Other 40. Chinese attack weakness 11.16.5 Yes Other 41. Fractional odds 11.16.5 Yes Other 42. Allied combat friction 11.16.5 Yes Land Rules 43. 2D10 Land CRT 11.16.6 Yes Air Rules 44. Extended aircraft rebasing 11.17 Yes Supply Rules 45. Variable reorganization costs 13.6.3 Yes Add. Units 46. Partisans 13.1, 13.7.4 Yes Supply Rules 47. Isolated reorganization limits 13.5 Yes Prod. Rules 48. Oil 5, 13.5.1, 21 No Prod. Rules 49. Hitler’s War () 13.3.2 No Other 50. USSR-Japan compulsory peace 13.7.3 No Air Rules 51. En-route aircraft interception 14.2.1 Yes Air Rules 52. Night missions 14.2.1, 14.2.3, 22.4.2 Yes Air Rules 53. Twin-engined fighters 14.3.2 Yes Air Rules 54. Fighter-bombers 14.3.2 Yes Air Rules 55. Outclassed fighters 14.3.2 Yes Add. Units 56. Carrier planes 4.2, 11.2, 11.5.2, 11.5.8, 11.5.11, 11.18.4, 13.5.1, 13.6.5, 14.3.2, 14.4, 14.4.1, 14.8, 16.2 No Air Rules 57. Limited aircraft interception 14.2.1 No Air Rules 58. Internment 14.6.4, 19.1 Partial Air Rules 59. Flying bombs 14.6, 14.7 Partial Air Rules 60. Kamikazes 14.6, 14.8 Yes Add. Units 61. Offensive Chits 16, (16.1 - 16.5) No Other 62. The Ukraine 19.12 No Other 63. Intelligence 22.1 No Other 64. Japanese command conflict 22.3 Yes Add. Units 65. Ski troops 22.4.1 Yes Add. Units 66. The Queens 22.4.4 Mostly Add. Units 67. City Based Volunteers 4.1.2, 22.4.8 Yes Add. Units 68. Siberians 22.4.7 Partial Add. Units 69. Naval supply units 22.4.13 Partial Add. Units 70. Guards Banner Armies 22.4.14 No Add. Units 71. Chinese Warlords 22.4.15 No Add. Units 72. Partisan HQs 22.4.16 Partial No 73. Heavy Weapons Units 22.4.17 Partial No 74. Air Cav 22.4.18 No Add. Units 75. Cruisers in Flames 13.5.1, 22.4.6 No Add. Units 76. Convoys in Flames 19.4, 22.4.19
