Some discussion of 1.0.5

[Erik Rutins]

Hi guys,

Sorry we've been a bit quiet, we'll have a lot more to discuss on 1.0.5 later this week. Elliot is working hard on it and I've been pulled away from my previous level of public posting temporarily by some other priorities.

Regards,

- Erik

[Munchies]

I am shelving this game for a while I am sad to say.
Just played a new game with the 104.9 update.

Was doing good from the start until I spent more than a year with -10k to -15k cash. But the kicker is, I had positive cash flow according to the economy page. Was floating between +30k and +20k income, but my cash would decrease to -10k then bam... goes back to -15k again. I never could get more cash no matter what.
If the game says I have an income of 30k, then damn I should be gaining money...

In the meantime the Baskara declared war on me (YES finally the AI took the initiative and declared on me)
and I could not even build one ship or intel agent.
All I had was a few escorts and the 2 ships I found abandoned (capital and cruiser).

[Erik Rutins]

Hi Munchies,

I've had no issues with money in 1.0.4.9. What Race/Government combo were you playing? What did your expenses say as far as what the source of the drain was? What automation did you have turned on?

Regards,

- Erik

[Shark7]

Some of the governments may need a tweak Erik. Going from Republic to Way of the Ancients in the last two games I played almost instantly doubled my income, and within a few game years I had gone from ~68k income to over 350k income. This was with minimal new colonization and just letting my existing colonies grow. While I expect the income to increase, the pace of the increase is a bit...quick...with Way of the Ancients.

[taltamir]

I think that has to do with war weariness... way of ancients eliminates it.

As a republic or a democracy you simply cannot afford to be in war, it bankrupts you... you need to have quick decisive wars that end ASAP.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

I think that has to do with war weariness... way of ancients eliminates it.

As a republic or a democracy you simply cannot afford to be in war, it bankrupts you... you need to have quick decisive wars that end ASAP.

Trouble is that I'm not at war when that happens. I'm just happily building along and trading with all other empires. So that is not the case for me.

[Munchies]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi Munchies,

I've had no issues with money in 1.0.4.9. What Race/Government combo were you playing? What did your expenses say as far as what the source of the drain was? What automation did you have turned on?

Regards,

- Erik

Weekarus as Republic. Government is irrelevant because the Insects' agents flipped my government after they declared war on me because I couldn't recruit agents. It is now despotism.

I haven't had a construction ship for a long time. Have not had money to build a new one after the only one I had got badly damaged and I retired it. Would have taken 6 hours to run it back to a port for repairs.
All automation is turned off too.
And I always have everything on suggest or manual.

Cash on hand -21k and been in the negative for a looooong time.

Colony income is 40k (10 colonies), all other income is 0. (haven't been able to even build a resort on a really close black hole.. no money for a while)

ship upkeep is 8k
troop upkeep is 5k.
And that is it.. so where is my money going? This game is broken and you not being able to reproduce it just means it will stay broke.

I mean geez, is the private sector charging me for building THEIR ships? I just don't get it.
I have 1 escort, 1 cruiser, 1 cap ship, 5 exploration ships, 1 small port, and 1 med port. That is it.

[Joram]

You got it backwards I think. The gov't get's the profits out of the private sector. Now if the private sector is in the red, then the gov't is getting double-shafted. It's a bit simplistic to be sure but not sure if we want an economic simulator on top of an increasingly complex game. I think the issue then is why the heck does the private sector go into the red? That, in my opinion, is what shouldn't be happening if that is what you are describing.

[Bartje]

They are not earning money? No luxuries or resources? Ships are too expensive?
 
It could be all manner of things that drive the private sector into bankrupcy.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Munchies
Weekarus as Republic. Government is irrelevant because the Insects' agents flipped my government after they declared war on me because I couldn't recruit agents. It is now despotism.

Government type is not at all irrelevant. It sounds like you were already in the red before you went to war then, if you were unable to recruit any agents? Switching from Republic to Despotism can cause some serious issues in terms of income, so I can understand that would drive you into the red unless you adjusted, but I don't understand how you would have been in the red before that. Could you upload a pre-war save by any chance?

Cash on hand -21k and been in the negative for a looooong time.
Colony income is 40k (10 colonies), all other income is 0. (haven't been able to even build a resort on a really close black hole.. no money for a while)

What kind of home planet did you start with? What kind of galaxy settings did you use?

ship upkeep is 8k
troop upkeep is 5k.

If your income is 40k and your expenses are 13k, you should be in the black.

And that is it.. so where is my money going? This game is broken and you not being able to reproduce it just means it will stay broke.

Well, if I can't reproduce your issue here based on your description (I can't) then it would be a big help if you could upload a save file per the instructions in the tech support forum. I'd love to take a look at it.

Regards,

- Erik

[VarekRaith]

I think it's way too easy to pull of a government coup with your spies. Also, it's rather annoying to have your government change multiple times a month because I can't defend against multiple empire's spies. Their 30+ spies against my 10 on counter intel? LolTheyFail. [:D]

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: VarekRaith

I think it's way too easy to pull of a government coup with your spies. Also, it's rather annoying to have your government change multiple times a month because I can't defend against multiple empire's spies. Their 30+ spies against my 10 on counter intel? LolTheyFail. [:D]

I agree.
even at smaller numbers its a pretty nasty thing to try to defend against.

[jscott991]

I haven't seen anything like what Munchies is reporting, but I have noticed that my income is not as high in 1.04.9 as it seemed before.

Did something in these later patches (7, 8, and 9) affect economic performance in a negative way?

[Yarasala]

That brings as again to the point where a much more detailed breakdown of one's economics would be a good thing so that we can actually *understand* where the money comes from and where it goes.
As I stated elsewhere I cannot find a connection between your income shown in the economics screen and your income displayed in the upper right corner of the main screen beneath your cash.

[jscott991]

ORIGINAL: Yarasala

That brings as again to the point where a much more detailed breakdown of one's economics would be a good thing so that we can actually *understand* where the money comes from and where it goes.
As I stated elsewhere I cannot find a connection between your income shown in the economics screen and your income displayed in the upper right corner of the main screen beneath your cash.

The thing in the upper right is next to worthless.

[gargoil]

ORIGINAL: Munchies

I am shelving this game for a while I am sad to say.
Just played a new game with the 104.9 update.

Was doing good from the start until I spent more than a year with -10k to -15k cash. But the kicker is, I had positive cash flow according to the economy page. Was floating between +30k and +20k income, but my cash would decrease to -10k then bam... goes back to -15k again. I never could get more cash no matter what.
If the game says I have an income of 30k, then damn I should be gaining money...

In the meantime the Baskara declared war on me (YES finally the AI took the initiative and declared on me)
and I could not even build one ship or intel agent.
All I had was a few escorts and the 2 ships I found abandoned (capital and cruiser).

I had one game that went this way, and I gave up. Next game, I designed a tiny spaceport (called it an outpost). Built that on every colony. I also invaded a hostile independent system with 3 planets. I took off from there. When I stopped I had over 600k money, and over 60 colonies.

BTW, it was a bit anticlimatic at that point. I was so far ahead of every other civ. I had 60 fleets, maybe 20 of them were a capital ship, a destroyer and a frigate. Any one of those fleets could take down an entire opponent's spaceforces. So every game I've play so far has either been where I was being backrupted and owned or I was like a god to a bunch of ants. The game is great, but there does seem to be a boom or bust nature to every game.

[Astax]

I know what you mean Gargoil. Had same things happen to me. Either I'm in the gutter, or rolling in the dough.

[taltamir]

I started explaining the economy in depth here, then I just decided to make a huge massive essay out of it and make it its own thread... here: tm.asp?m=2477630

[Astax]

That's an excellent start. Understanding the economy is first step towards fixing it. One thing I believe a game would benefit from right now is a popup whenever a scenic site is discovered.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Astax

That's an excellent start. Understanding the economy is first step towards fixing it. One thing I believe a game would benefit from right now is a popup whenever a scenic site is discovered.

The economy isn't really "broken", it works fine for me (especially since I know HOW it works ;p).

While I personally would prefer a less abstracted economy with each ship or at least base having its own income and expenses (and thus, dynamic things such as the destruction of freighters could cause a base to suddenly lose money and go bankrupt, etc etc)... it will massively increase the ram and CPU requirements which are already problematic. Thus the current sort of abstraction makes sense.

v1.05 will introduce a corruption slider which would fix a lot of the problems some people have with the economy.

The other issues I see are generally people bankrupting themselves by mismanaging the economy... which requires explaining how it works rather then a "fix"