Anyone here who wants to buy my Game?

[Oznoyng]

You were not overcharged. You were not cheated.

You got:

Digital Download 69.99 USD
CD on Demand 9.99 USD

Those are prices *I* paid as a US customer. My total for the two items was $79.98. At the quoted exchange rate of 1.22 Euros to the dollar, I paid 65.56 Euros. You paid 64.99 Euros. In other words, you paid 0.57 Euros *less* than a US customer.

Now, let me deal with the issue of being charged taxes. It is common practice in the United States for prices *not* to include applicable taxes. Oftentimes, the calculation of those taxes cannot occur until specific informaiton about where the product is shipped are known. (And you *are* being shipped a product - the CD from CD on demand). As others have stated here, you ran afoul of differences in cultures and tax laws. The extra 17.5 percent charged to you is not money Matrix gets - it is money Matrix (via DR) will send to the appropriate EU tax authority. I can vouch that the tax is required for software downloads, since the same requirement exists for the cell phones games I work on.

American consumers are so accustomed to this that most of us are hearing the following when we read your posts: "whine whine whine whine". Matrix has been nothing but cordial and responsive to your complaints. They have already taken the issue and plan to investigate making changes to the store to accomodate EU customers. They are acting in good faith and with an eye towards pleasing their customers. However, understand that any new price will be what you already paid. Any change will be in the method of presentation - not in reducing the price you paid. Instead of a price plus taxes you will get a price with taxes. The added costs come from taxes imposed by your government. In the US, we prefer it seperated because it tells us just how much our government is adding on to the costs of things we buy. In other words, your politicians are pulling a bait and switch on you. And as they want you to, you are blaming us. If you don't like it, change your government.

Understand that Matrix is a small company that above all, produces great games. Running a company with a global customer base with a very small number of people means that you *have* to hire people to do some things for you - or you will have to charge so much for your product that you will never be able to sell it. Matrix uses a service (read another company) to handle distribution of their game both in the United States and abroad. Apparently, the service they chose (DR) does not conduct business in the EU in a manner consistent with common practice there. There was no way for a company like Matrix to predict your reaction. Based upon the efforts I have seen, they do everything they can to make their customers happy. Mistakes wiill happen, all you can ask for is for them to be acknowledged and rectified. IMO, I think Matrix is doing a marvelous job of that.

[pompack]

You did a perfect ToT Oznoyng; there is no point in my adding anything because you said it so well.

[John B]

The UK policy on these things seems a bit hit and miss. Sometimes I'm charged Customs duties, collected by the postman on delivery, on games CDs. Sometimes I'm not charged at all. I've never had to pay either customs duties or VAT on books from abroad. But then books are zero-rated on VAT, so that may be the reason. Basically, it appears very often to depend on whether an individual postman feels like being bothered with the hassle, and also whether the vendor gives a full declaration of the contents on the package. They are supposed to do so legally, but not all bother. So presumably if someone here ordered WitP on CD, without the download, they might, or might not, get charged extra.

[Banquet]

He didn't get CD on demand as far as I can see. The header states 'Digital download/CD on demand' meaning either/or..

I'm not aware that I ordered the CD, and my bill doesn't show the CD in the price.. but I still get the same header;

Product Name Qty Ordered Platform Delivery Method Price
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
War In The Pacific 1 Digital Download/CD on Demand Digital River $ 69.99
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub Total: $ 69.99
Tax: $ 12.25
Total: $ 82.24

In my case I ordered through the US store, though this was more due to my impatience (WiTP hadn't showed up in the UK or Euro store at the time)

This has happened to me before when downloading other software from USA so I wasn't overly surprised.

I just hope MG3 can enjoy the game and that Matrix try's to ensure something is done to make it more obvious.. but confusion could still reign because even if they add VAT onto the price for Euro downloads, people could still download from the US store (as I did) and still get a surprise when it adds VAT on.

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

You were not overcharged. You were not cheated.

You got:

Digital Download 69.99 USD
CD on Demand 9.99 USD

Those are prices *I* paid as a US customer. My total for the two items was $79.98. At the quoted exchange rate of 1.22 Euros to the dollar, I paid 65.56 Euros. You paid 64.99 Euros. In other words, you paid 0.57 Euros *less* than a US customer.

Now, let me deal with the issue of being charged taxes. It is common practice in the United States for prices *not* to include applicable taxes. Oftentimes, the calculation of those taxes cannot occur until specific informaiton about where the product is shipped are known. (And you *are* being shipped a product - the CD from CD on demand). As others have stated here, you ran afoul of differences in cultures and tax laws. The extra 17.5 percent charged to you is not money Matrix gets - it is money Matrix (via DR) will send to the appropriate EU tax authority. I can vouch that the tax is required for software downloads, since the same requirement exists for the cell phones games I work on.

American consumers are so accustomed to this that most of us are hearing the following when we read your posts: "whine whine whine whine". Matrix has been nothing but cordial and responsive to your complaints. They have already taken the issue and plan to investigate making changes to the store to accomodate EU customers. They are acting in good faith and with an eye towards pleasing their customers. However, understand that any new price will be what you already paid. Any change will be in the method of presentation - not in reducing the price you paid. Instead of a price plus taxes you will get a price with taxes. The added costs come from taxes imposed by your government. In the US, we prefer it seperated because it tells us just how much our government is adding on to the costs of things we buy. In other words, your politicians are pulling a bait and switch on you. And as they want you to, you are blaming us. If you don't like it, change your government.

Understand that Matrix is a small company that above all, produces great games. Running a company with a global customer base with a very small number of people means that you *have* to hire people to do some things for you - or you will have to charge so much for your product that you will never be able to sell it. Matrix uses a service (read another company) to handle distribution of their game both in the United States and abroad. Apparently, the service they chose (DR) does not conduct business in the EU in a manner consistent with common practice there. There was no way for a company like Matrix to predict your reaction. Based upon the efforts I have seen, they do everything they can to make their customers happy. Mistakes wiill happen, all you can ask for is for them to be acknowledged and rectified. IMO, I think Matrix is doing a marvelous job of that.

[WhoCares]

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

You were not overcharged. You were not cheated.

You got:

Digital Download 69.99 USD
CD on Demand 9.99 USD

Those are prices *I* paid as a US customer. My total for the two items was $79.98. At the quoted exchange rate of 1.22 Euros to the dollar, I paid 65.56 Euros. You paid 64.99 Euros. In other words, you paid 0.57 Euros *less* than a US customer.

Just to clarify I post two screenshots (everybody could have checked himself w/o buying it again [8D])
US:

[WhoCares]

and EU:




And now:

74.98EUR +17.5% VAT => 88.10EUR

And converted to $:
88.10EUR *1.22 = 107.48$

So, via EU shop you pay 34% more than in the US for the same product!

Please note that this calculation includes the CD, while in the ongoing discussion it was excluded (but on both sides!)

[Oznoyng]

Hmmm... I stand corrected. Sounds like the EU version *is* a bit more expensive. Using a straight conversion,

game should be 56.88 EUR
cd on demand should be 8.09 EUR

I wonder what costs they incur in EU that they don't incur in the US.

[tsimmonds]

Wow! Looks like DR got a little bit casual on their currency conversion!

$69.99US to 64.99 EUR is $1.07US/1.00EUR???? And $1.00:1.00EUR for the digital download; that is nuts.

Up until this point it was not clear in my mind that the 64.99 EUR was for the DD only. Clearly it is. We got trouble right here in (Digital) River City....

[WhoCares]

To sum it up for me, there is for one the higher start price and as for two the missing total after tax before you pay (you can see the hint on the bottom of the second screenshot for the total after you purchased).

To make it more customer-friendly and avoid all the grief you see in this thread, I would suggest to add a VAT under the 'Shipping and Handling'...

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

Hmmm... I stand corrected. Sounds like the EU version *is* a bit more expensive. Using a straight conversion,

game should be 56.88 EUR
cd on demand should be 8.09 EUR

I wonder what costs they incur in EU that they don't incur in the US.

The major difference is that the US currently does not charge sales tax on online purchases - unless it is being shipped within the same state. Same thing when you order things over the phone - if you live out of state - no sales tax.. within the state - sales tax. For us Americans its simple and been this way for.. uhm... well as long as I can remember (30 years).

Also, the average US sales tax is 6% when compared to 17.5% VAT - almost 3 times as much.. So actually the game is cheaper for Europeans, but their government takes a much larger chunk than the US government does - thus higher price. The screens I saw from Matrix made sense - from an AMERICAN VIEW as I always look for the tax.. If you are used to having the tax included you probably didn't even look twice for it... Not anyones fault really - just a difference in tax collection practices...

But don't be mad at Matrix (or the CD downloading service) as if they didn't charge the tax you can be sure some euro government would come after them legally... Same as the US government would if they didn't charge some sales tax for certain states...

All in all, just a big miscommunications that I think Matrix is working to correct...

Xargun

PS I paid $70.00 even in Origins for it and now they charge $69.99 ! Should I complain ? Don't think so.. the enjoyment I've had out of the game in less than 2 weeks is worth the $70 I've paid and I still have years ahead of me

[terje439]

We are required to add the VAT by the laws of the countries we sell to in Europe

Hmm I do not like the sound of this, it seems to me that you are treating all european countries the same?! Hopefully this only applies to EU-citizens??? I would be P@$£ed off if I was to be charged EU-taxes when living in Norway....

[Feinder]

I could weigh in on this thread (I do shipping/taxing software for a US company that ships internationally), but everything has been said. Things are the way they are, and Matrix is correct (even in having a separate EU price, that is certainly their perrogative).

But just because you (third person) don't understand how the taxing system works, doens't mean that it's wrong.
-F-

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Hm, what is the problem ?
Sure, the Vat-Thing is irritateing, but... EVEN if the game is more expensive... thatis business.

For VAT.
True is, that i as a german should pay 16% vat.
But i am older as 18, can read and if i try to not be an "pisa"ner, i could read ALL informations before i press some buttons for online ordering.

I am happy that i can order in the eu, so i agree that the vat-thing should be made clear a little bit more.
But for MG3s anger i can not agree to his behaviour...
he could pm to the matrix people, such things are not for the public.

MG3, if you do not like the game... bad luck. You paid and now you can throw it away (i suggest fdisk [:'(] ) or play it. it is worth even 120 Euros...

just my 2 Euros

by the way, it IS huge....

[onnel]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Things are the way they are, and Matrix is correct (even in having a separate EU price, that is certainly their perrogative).

Definitely their perogative, but they had better be prepared to defend that decision if they don't want some very pissed off customers (or would have been customers). Charging a higher price for a digital download from one location and not another (and I'm not talking about the sales/VAT/luxury tax issue) is not too kosher in many of our books.

Secondly, Matrix is not exactly correct. Displaying a price in the UK or Germany (cannot speak about the rest of the EU) and then adding in tax after the customer has confirmed is ILLEGAL. What you confirm is what you are charged. Anything else is against the law.

This second point wouldn't be (as big) a deal if Matrix didn't have a separate shopping channel for EU customers (and already higher prices, not even mentioning the VAT!).

So no, matrix is not totally correct, and before I order (from the EU) they had better explain why I am paying roughly 5$ more than US customers.

Easy to be fussy when it's not your hard earned $$$ that are at stake, n'est pas?

Onnel

[MG3]

MG3, if you do not like the game... bad luck. You paid and now you can throw it away (i suggest fdisk ) or play it. it is worth even 120 Euros...

Bohr dir doch ein Loch ins Knie du hirnloser Groupie.

Wegen mir kann das Spiel 1200 Euro wert sein, solange ich beim Kauf halb beschissen werde ist mir das Furzpiepegal.

Übrigens habe ich eine Mail geschrieben bevor ich das im Forum gepostet habe- und keine Antwort erhalten.

Das Rechnungsformular ist in meinen Augen definitiv beschiss- da die entgültigen Kosten erst dann aufgedeckt werden, wenn man schon bezahlt hat. Besonderst dann, wenn man INKLUSIVE Steuer gewöhnt ist. Das hätte zumindest den schon unverschämten Wechselkurs gerechtfertigt.

Also, viel Spaß noch beim schleimen und andere User beleidigen.

[dudalb_slith]

I would be P@$£ed off if I was to be charged EU-taxes when living in Norw

I am a US citizen, and when on vacation in the UK I sure as heck paid the VAT on just about everything my wife and I bought and ate. Theretically I could have gotten a refund but it is such a hassle--and I have a sneaking feeling made delibertly so by the UK equivilant of the IRS..so as not to be worth it unless you are making a huge purchase like a car.
In the US we prefer to have our sales taxes in the open and labelled for what they are. THus in California we have a 7% sales tax that is added to the purchase price at the counter. This can cause confusion. At the bookstore at SF international a Brit was shocked at having to pay more then the printed price on the book until I explained it to him.
As to the legallity of the EU making a US company charge VAT tax...I question that myself but realistically, the EU could probably make life very difficult for American companies that did'nt.

[Erik Rutins]

Gentlemen,

There's no need to attack or defend as there are no sides on this. We are always concerned to make sure our customers are fairly treated. We have a scheduled conference with DR over this. We will make sure that everything is by the book, that all conversions are fair and that any hidden taxes are displayed as obviously as possible, then get back to you all with the updated policy. Apologies for all the confusion caused to our overseas customers, the goal has always been and remains to serve you better, but it is a learning process.

Regards,

- Erik

[RealChuckB]

Pascal,

Yes, the directive state that it is the obligation of the non-EU supplier. He has to register, charge and remit VAT to the respective authorities (in addition, he has to file quarterly reports). Of couse, like every EU Directive, this one has also to be implemented into the law of the respective Member state (the deadline for that was July 1st 2003).

You are right that the equivalent of this taxation of electronically supplied services for physically delivered goods is customs. In fact in these cases, VAT is "replaced" by customs (I know that this explanation is a simplification of the real issues)

And this is not at all about the legal domain of the EU going beyond its borders, in fact it is exactly about something that happens INSIDE its borders (so-called "place of consumption") under the OECD principles of the 1998 Ottawa conference.

I do not want to fight for this regulation at all, but that's the way it is ...

If we ever discuss ENFORCING this regulation ... that's a very different question and actually an interesting one.

My main point is this: I am totally convinced that it is NOT Matrixgames fault at all - they contracted with DR to outsource the digital download services and they are paying for it (in fact, DR is taking its share from our payments ...). They should demand from DR that the services of DR are running flawless (which is NOT the case) and that they do not fend off customers of Matrixgames, because that is hurting everybody involved. This discussion here give MG some ammunation for its discussion with DR and hopefully they will change it.

Chuck

[Bill Durrant]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Gentlemen,

There's no need to attack or defend as there are no sides on this. We are always concerned to make sure our customers are fairly treated. We have a scheduled conference with DR over this. We will make sure that everything is by the book, that all conversions are fair and that any hidden taxes are displayed as obviously as possible, then get back to you all with the updated policy. Apologies for all the confusion caused to our overseas customers, the goal has always been and remains to serve you better, but it is a learning process.

Regards,

- Erik

You can't say fairer than this. Give Matrix a break as it seems that DR maybe, I repeat maybe to blame.

Thanks Erik, I look forward to your update.

MG3 - bet you've had a sneaky look[;)]

[tsimmonds]

Bohr dir doch ein Loch ins Knie du hirnloser Groupie.

Nur eine Frage: Warum denn ein Loch ins Knie bohren? Warum nicht ein Loch in den Kopf? [;)]