TRP - Total Realism Project for War in Europe (1.10b Download)

[Lothos]

I suppose you could turn the Slovakian units into German units (like the Dutch and various other Volunteer-event free units). 1 Minor INF corps becoming a GE INF corps is not going to upset things; Or you could just have them as a free Mech Div to start as instead of the INF Corps.

Not every country should have a leader. Their is always weak points.

I put them on garrison duty mainly.

[Lothos]

TRP 1.4 is out, it has ALLOT of major changes so please read through the notes.

Many house rules such as keeping the Italian fleet in the Med are no longer necessary as the game engine does that already.

North Africa (between Tripoli and El Alamein) has a unit cap of 16 (excludes Garrison units in its count)

Afrika Corps is now conditional base and will only show up if the Italians are getting their but kicked. So if they are doing well then NO Afrika Corps (truth is Hitler never wanted to send them).

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# TRP 1.4 Europe
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- (New) Suez Canal (Italy), can only move transports through while neutral.
- (New) Gibraltar, only subs can use the passing points (no other ship can use them)
- (New) Finland Borderlands border changed a little near Leningrad
- (New) Finish initial units will now come with full strength and the ones near Petsamo will come with full research.
- (New) Germany, Afrika Korps, decision is now condition based and will fire if the Italians start to loose ground and loose units.
- (New) Greece, if Axis DOWs them they will get a morale boost to negate the surprise
- (New) UK/Greece, Event to reinforce changed to give 2 full research infantry corps instead of an Greek HQ and 1 UK Infantry Corps
- (New) Axis/Allies cannot have more than 16 units each between Tripoli and El Alamein in North Africa (or they have a 25% chance of suffering damage)
- (New) Any Allied DOW against any country in South America and the Caribbean will result in a extremely large NM hit to the USA
- (New) Paratroopers penalty lowered from 25% to 20% in clear weather and 45% to 40% in bad weather
- (New) USA can attach aligned minors to their HQs
- (New) Yugoslavia Coup changed, will only fire if Greece is Neutral or part of the Allies
- (New) Yugoslavia will join the Axis if Paris, Berlin, Rome, Budapest, Bucharest, Sofia and Athens are Axis controlled
- (New) Turkey will join the Axis if Berlin, Budapest, Bucharest, Sofia, Athens and the border towns with the USSR (Batumi, Ardahan, Leninakan) are Axis controlled
- (New) Armor base defense against other Armor increased by 1 point
- (New) Div Armor/Mech had their DeEntrench increased from 0 to 1
- (New) AT Lowered starting attack value against armor from 4 to 3
- (New) Prepared Attack Bonus removed for all units except for Mechanized and Armor (set to 20%)
- (New) New NATO Counters, compliments from SIPRES
- (New) UK, removed all the 1 MPP Convoys so German subs will hit the better ones
- (New) UK. adjust main convoy routes slightly for more spacing
- (New) UK, Persia will convoy resources if they join the Allies or are conquered by the allies
- (New) UK/USSR, Persia invasion decision chain changed to be random and no longer date specific and other changes to allow convoys also needs Baghdad allied controlled
- (New) Strategic Bombers no longer get a second attack
- (New) ZoC Penalty for ships increased from 1 to 10 (but requires 2 ore more Surface Combat Ships)
- (New) ZoC Penalty for subs increased from 1 to 10 (you only need 1 sub to apply the penalty)
- (New) Partisans no longer exert a ZoC
- (New) French Navy will no longer become part of the UK if Vichy is not formed. Instead a new Navy will appear for Free France
- (New) Malta AA guns will come upgraded if you choose to improve them
- (New) France will fully cooperate with the UK and USA again
- (New) Major Fortress (Malta) Spotting Land increased to 3 and Spotting Sea Increased to 7
- (New) Mech Divisions Spotting Land increased to 2
- (New) Lowered Naval Damage chance in bad weather
- (New) Sub Sea view range increased from 1 to 2 (Note: this only works the first time you stop in movement, after that it is 1)
- (New) Sub retreat percentage increased
- (New) Subs retreat range increased from 4 to 15 (It only retreats the distance needed so no enemy units are next to them)
- (New) Subs Base Dive Percentage Chance increased from 25 to 40
- (New) ASW Tech/Sub Tech no longer raise Dive Percentage nor ASW Percentage subs will always have a 40% chance to dive.
- (New) Capital Ships had their starting sub attack changed from 1 to 0
- (New) USSR, Winter War Decisions changes. If no Winter War then the USSR cannot winterize their forces.
- (New) USSR, If they DO NOT winterize their units the damage will be just as bad to the USSR as it is to the Germans
- (New) Germany, due to the new Mining Decisions moved German Mobilization to not fire till after the mining decisions
- (New) Norway Convoys to Germany redesigned with a Mining Decision that the Allies can choose
--- Allies say yes then in March 1940 the Norwegian coast will be mined
----- 40% chance the Norwegians will stop the mining if they are upset about Raiding their coast
----- This will force the Convoy route to come out of Oslo at a greatly reduced rate
----- Swedish Convoys will be reduced during non-summer months and closed during the winter
--- Allies say no to mining (or upset the Norwegian government and raiding their coast)
----- Convoy routes will shift to Oslo but will send more to Germany
----- Swedish Convoys will continue to flow at 100% all year

- (Map) Italy, some changes to the lower part to reflect better what it looks like
- (Map) North Africa, all roads changed to dirt
- (Map) Added some paved roads in Romania, Greece and Yugoslavia
- (Map) Changed some of the land layout in Greece
- (Map) Redid all the weather zones and more than doubled the amount of zones
- (Map) Brunsbüttel (164,71) Changed to a Fortified Town
- (Map) Desert Terrain is no longer passable (AI Reasons), adjusted map
- (Map) Sevastopol (hex 212,96) added to NM Objective
- (Map) Saudi Arabia trade information more descriptive and added a 100% resource if mobilization is 100%
- (Map) Kiel Canal reworked so it is blocked on both ends
- (Map) Italy can use the Suez Canal while neutral

- (OOB) Greece, redid their OOB. They start with a Mountain and HQ unit and fully entrenched.
- (OOB) Yugoslavia, increased the starting strength of some of their CORPs
- (OOB) Germany, Surface ships (on the map) all upgraded to Naval Level 1
- (OOB) Germany, added half strength garrison to hex 164,71
- (OOB) France, lowered Max Fighters from 4 to 3
- (OOB) France, lowered Max Tactical Bombers from 3 to 2
- (OOB) Yugoslavia, moved garrison from 184,100 to 182,99

- (Bug) Malta Effect, fixed an issue that it would not fire in multi-player games (please people confirm)
- (Bug) Italy, Event to DOW Greece will fire even if Greece is leaning toward the Axis
- (Bug) Germany, decision 947 "German-Soviet Border And Commercial Agreement" Changed based on user feedback
- (Bug) French Colonies will now form if Axis do not form Vichy and will get an army in North Africa
- (Bug) Typo fixed in Decision for cruiser Blücher was spelled wrong Bulcher
- (Bug) Typo fixed in Popup giving advice to Germany to strike at Egypt, changed "with the war" to "win the war"
- (Bug) Command and Control Tech will give 1 full AP to Major Power HQs per level

- (AI) Germany, will garrison Brunsbüttel (164,71)
- (AI) Germany, will keep Finland reinforced if force count goes to low
- (AI) Axis added hex 214,60 (Vyshniy Volochyk) to their ignore list
- (AI) Axis, removed from ignore list hexes 212,96 and 214,94 (Crimea area)
- (AI) Finland, made some adjustments to how it reacts near Petsamo
- (AI) Finland, made some adjustments on how it attacks near Leningrad
- (AI) France, has a 70% chance of saying yes to decision 203 to get the Engineers
- (AI) France, has a fortification AI
- (AI) France, should build more fighters
- (AI) USSR, made some adjustments on how it defends nears Leningrad
- (AI) USSR, changed its fortification locations and order
- (AI) USSR, will no longer auto DOW Italy if Germany is at war with USSR
- (AI) Italy, Peacetime Fleet, movements adjusted so they start in a better defensive position
- (AI) Italy, will no longer auto DOW USSR if Germany is at war with USSR
- (AI) Italy, may invade Malta if left undefended
- (AI) Germany, Improved Garrisoning of Russian Territory
- (AI) Germany, 1942 will focus offensive against Russia better 40% chance against Moscow, 60% chance against Stalingrad
- (AI) Germany, may invade Malta if left undefended
- (AI) Germany, Sea Lion has a chance after Fall of France
--- NOTE: If Human player invades the UK (Italy invading the UK) German AI will reinforce and transport troops
--- NOTE: After UK Falls Germany will transport some troops back to main Europe

[Taxman66]

Assorted initial comments:

1.
Afrika Corps is now conditional base and will only show up if the Italians are getting their but kicked. So if they are doing well then NO Afrika Corps (truth is Hitler never wanted to send them).

I think this is unwise and a bad game design as it effectively leads to the Allies making the decision and takes a strategic option/bonus away from the Axis player.

2.
I'll reserve judgement on the Greece/Yugo situation. However I'm doubtful Greece can hold out long enough vs. a determined Axis player.

3.
Gibraltar, only subs can use the passing points (no other ship can use them)

This is realistic.

4.
North Africa (between Tripoli and El Alamein) has a unit cap of 16 (excludes Garrison units in its count)

Interesting, does this include the Libyan hexes west of Tripoli? I take it Tunisia/Algeria/Morocco are safe from the unit count as well.

I'm wondering if this will make taking Egypt impossible for the Axis, where before it was guaranteed if the Axis player was willing to commit the time/units/mpp to do so.

I think it might be a good idea to give Italy a few extra GAR and/or INF Divs to help guard her coast.

5.
Sub changes...
I'll reserver judgement until I experience it. I'm not against giving them an early boost, though I'm concerned you may have gone too far. However, by later in the war (mid/late '42+) they should be on the losing end of the investment scale and by summer '43 should be just getting crushed at higher and higher exchange ratios. Dive chances should go down somewhat at later points too as Sonar/surface radar and other spotting methods improved (i.e. ASW tech).

6.
I'll reserve judgement on the prepared attack changes, but am concerned.

7.
UK/USSR, Persia invasion decision chain changed to be random and no longer date specific and other changes to allow convoys also needs Baghdad allied controlled.

As long as it fires/completes before USA entry.

8.
Lowered Naval Damage chance in bad weather

I presume this means the % chance that a ship takes damage. Actually IMO, it's the damage amount that is too much. 3 is just gross and way too much. I feel I have to hide my ships in safe hexes whenever there are storms. I get pissed at when I've paid to overstrength the rare naval unit that gets an experience pip only to loose enough strength so that I lose the experience pip as well when I repair it.

9.
Suggestion: Perhaps copy/implement Crispy's FW (later version) Mod's idea of adding/splitting the Malta effect to Crete.

[gigiduru]

Assorted initial comments:

1.
Afrika Corps is now conditional base and will only show up if the Italians are getting their but kicked. So if they are doing well then NO Afrika Corps (truth is Hitler never wanted to send them).

I think this is unwise and a bad game design as it effectively leads to the Allies making the decision and takes a strategic option/bonus away from the Axis player.

2.
I'll reserve judgement on the Greece/Yugo situation. However I'm doubtful Greece can hold out long enough vs. a determined Axis player.

3.
Gibraltar, only subs can use the passing points (no other ship can use them)

This is realistic.

4.
North Africa (between Tripoli and El Alamein) has a unit cap of 16 (excludes Garrison units in its count)

Interesting, does this include the Libyan hexes west of Tripoli? I take it Tunisia/Algeria/Morocco are safe from the unit count as well.

I'm wondering if this will make taking Egypt impossible for the Axis, where before it was guaranteed if the Axis player was willing to commit the time/units/mpp to do so.

I think it might be a good idea to give Italy a few extra GAR and/or INF Divs to help guard her coast.

5.
Sub changes...
I'll reserver judgement until I experience it. I'm not against giving them an early boost, though I'm concerned you may have gone too far. However, by later in the war (mid/late '42+) they should be on the losing end of the investment scale and by summer '43 should be just getting crushed at higher and higher exchange ratios. Dive chances should go down somewhat at later points too as Sonar/surface radar and other spotting methods improved (i.e. ASW tech).

6.
I'll reserve judgement on the prepared attack changes, but am concerned.

7.
UK/USSR, Persia invasion decision chain changed to be random and no longer date specific and other changes to allow convoys also needs Baghdad allied controlled.

As long as it fires/completes before USA entry.

8.
Lowered Naval Damage chance in bad weather

I presume this means the % chance that a ship takes damage. Actually IMO, it's the damage amount that is too much. 3 is just gross and way too much. I feel I have to hide my ships in safe hexes whenever there are storms. I get pissed at when I've paid to overstrength the rare naval unit that gets an experience pip only to loose enough strength so that I lose the experience pip as well when I repair it.

9.
Suggestion: Perhaps copy/implement Crispy's FW (later version) Mod's idea of adding/splitting the Malta effect to Crete.

1.I would like that we get the same event as you have in World at War - if you don't choose to deploy DAK in NA you get the units in Italy to use where you want. I understand that cost wise 800 MPP is 800 MPP but on the other had you have more units NOW (read end of 40') that you can transport to the east for a better push into USSR.
2.I'm going to test this as soon as possible vs Veteran AI and see how fast can the germans (using air power/HQ/1 or 2 tank cores and paratroops) take Greece.
3.Agreed
4.The problem that i see is that the UK can keep it's land forces in from of El Alamein and its airforce Behind. In order for Germany to push and win they would need to bring only quality (read 2 HQ/4 tank cores/ 2 AA and arty) and try and push like crazy. Immo it needs more testing but i feel it's a nerf for the axis (Maybe not a big deal since you'll be 'forced' to spend resources for Russia and ignore NA)
5.I felt the same in my MP game that i played as the allies. But then again the allies get so so so much ships that i don't think it does matter. As the allies you just have to suck it up in '40 and '41 and then start kicking those subs out of your ocean once the US joins. TLDR - i (reluctantly) agree with the changes
6. It feels a bit weird but i guess it goes both ways. Needs more testing.
7. Agreed
8. 200% agreed. 3 dmg on a CC means 50 MPP. That is 1/4 or 1/5 of UK's income. Half of the time i played as the allies i spent finding clear water tiles and when i couldn't (Even with fleet movement) i really really hated it . Immo 1 dmg (with a crit of 2) is enough.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Howdy Lothos.
A solution for Brazil. (I posted earlier but the thread has been deluged...which is good)

1) So after more research I think it would be best to allow American Minors be attached by US Hqs, exactly like you have set up with the British and their Minors.
The Brazilian Expeditionary Force was under 5th Army Command in Italy. Basically Brazil and a smattering of other Minors of both the US and UK were subsumed this way.
Any other American Minors should be handled the same way.

I definitely would keep the same mechanic you designed for the Germany's Minors e.g. the MInors units such as Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria etc can only have Hqs of the same nationality that can attach to them. It works realistically.

2) One minor problem (pun intended) is Slovakia. Is it possible that Slovakian units be made to be placed under German Hqs? Otherwise they are very vulnerable.

That's it for now.

Unfortunately it's an all or nothing with the HQs

Ah no problem with Slovakia. Maybe give them an Hq like the other minors.
Having the US minors being able to be attached to US like UK minors can to UK HQs was the main idea. Brazil came to mind.
You did that with the UK but left Germany's Minors unable to attach to German HQs (which is good.. don't change that! ).
Just curious if 'all or nothing' pertains to each Major separately or All Majors. I thought it pertained to the former.

[Lothos]

Howdy Lothos.
A solution for Brazil. (I posted earlier but the thread has been deluged...which is good)

1) So after more research I think it would be best to allow American Minors be attached by US Hqs, exactly like you have set up with the British and their Minors.
The Brazilian Expeditionary Force was under 5th Army Command in Italy. Basically Brazil and a smattering of other Minors of both the US and UK were subsumed this way.
Any other American Minors should be handled the same way.

I definitely would keep the same mechanic you designed for the Germany's Minors e.g. the MInors units such as Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria etc can only have Hqs of the same nationality that can attach to them. It works realistically.

2) One minor problem (pun intended) is Slovakia. Is it possible that Slovakian units be made to be placed under German Hqs? Otherwise they are very vulnerable.

That's it for now.

Unfortunately it's an all or nothing with the HQs

Ah no problem with Slovakia. Maybe give them an Hq like the other minors.
Having the US minors being able to be attached to US like UK minors can to UK HQs was the main idea. Brazil came to mind.
You did that with the UK but left Germany's Minors unable to attach to German HQs (which is good.. don't change that! ).
Just curious if 'all or nothing' pertains to each Major separately or All Majors. I thought it pertained to the former.

Its all or nothing for each major.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Lothos....thanks for the answer.
Well I would seriously consider having US Minors handled like you have UK Minors in TRP-WiE and TRP-WaW.

Side note. I saw your unit cap for North Africa from Tripoli to Alexandria. Yes like it hugely! Was going to mention whether you could do something like that. Is that change going to be in TRP-WIE along with TRP-WaW like I saw?
Hope so!
It's hugely gimmicky to send the entire Luftwaffe and an entire Army Group to Libya-Western Egypt.
I was even thinking of restrictions on size of units, like maybe allowing mostly divisions. Also number of fuel using motorized units and aircraft.
In my series with Taxman, I got criticized a bit for not bringing 2 or even 3 Armor Corps down there.
Well, I'm an old school wargamer...and played tons of North Africa type campaigns.
Fuel and Water would and was a huge issue in that area.
So I kind of held back on doing something like that in that match. Too gimmicky and unsportsmanlike.
Cheers.

[Lothos]

Lothos....thanks for the answer.
Well I would seriously consider having US Minors handled like you have UK Minors in TRP-WiE and TRP-WaW.

Side note. I saw your unit cap for North Africa from Tripoli to Alexandria. Yes like it hugely! Was going to mention whether you could do something like that. Is that change going to be in TRP-WIE along with TRP-WaW like I saw?
Hope so!
It's hugely gimmicky to send the entire Luftwaffe and an entire Army Group to Libya-Western Egypt.
I was even thinking of restrictions on size of units, like maybe allowing mostly divisions. Also number of fuel using motorized units and aircraft.
In my series with Taxman, I got criticized a bit for not bringing 2 or even 3 Armor Corps down there.
Well, I'm an old school wargamer...and played tons of North Africa type campaigns.
Fuel and Water would and was a huge issue in that area.
So I kind of held back on doing something like that in that match. Too gimmicky and unsportsmanlike.
Cheers.

All of what you just asked about is in the release I did last night for both Europe and World.

[Duedman]

It's hugely gimmicky to send the entire Luftwaffe and an entire Army Group to Libya-Western Egypt.
I was even thinking of restrictions on size of units, like maybe allowing mostly divisions. Also number of fuel using motorized units and aircraft.
In my series with Taxman, I got criticized a bit for not bringing 2 or even 3 Armor Corps down there.
Well, I'm an old school wargamer...and played tons of North Africa type campaigns.
Fuel and Water would and was a huge issue in that area.
So I kind of held back on doing something like that in that match. Too gimmicky and unsportsmanlike.
Cheers.

While I completely see where you are coming from this still bugs me.
Question: Did you tell Taxman beforehand that you are going to restrict yourself in NA?
I presume not.
This is what you do when playing small kids. You let them win.
To me it seems he is doing his very best. You, by your own admission, do not.
Now whats that if not..... I know you are a sportsman so I will not use the word above

This game is wonderful but it sadly only rarely results in evenly matched late game clashes. Because either Axis steamroller gets stopped... or not.
I think you are deliberately trying to ensure that meaty action is going to happen. And I really do believe it when you say, you do not care whether you win or lose as long as the match was awesome. It will probably also be more entertaining for the viewers.
But then it is sort of a show match and everyone should know that.

@Lothos: My 2c unit count in NA: The way you designed the Qattara depression in combination with lower movement it is already nigh impossible to get through to Cairo. Allied player just needs to defend the eastern exit.
But if an Axis player still tries to achieve a breakthrough by numbers, he would have to evacuate Italians to make room for Germans. How realistic is that?

[Taxman66]

USSR AT units destroyed while in supply 5+ and not cut off are not showing up with the reduced cost (MPP/time) option (*).

USSR AT bug.jpg (226.25 KiB) Viewed 655 times

[Lothos]

USSR AT units destroyed while in supply 5+ and not cut off are not showing up with the reduced cost (MPP/time) option (*).

USSR AT bug.jpg

Thanks found the bug, its all Anti-Tank not just that one

[OldCrowBalthazor]

It's hugely gimmicky to send the entire Luftwaffe and an entire Army Group to Libya-Western Egypt.
I was even thinking of restrictions on size of units, like maybe allowing mostly divisions. Also number of fuel using motorized units and aircraft.
In my series with Taxman, I got criticized a bit for not bringing 2 or even 3 Armor Corps down there.
Well, I'm an old school wargamer...and played tons of North Africa type campaigns.
Fuel and Water would and was a huge issue in that area.
So I kind of held back on doing something like that in that match. Too gimmicky and unsportsmanlike.
Cheers.

While I completely see where you are coming from this still bugs me.
Question: Did you tell Taxman beforehand that you are going to restrict yourself in NA?
I presume not.
This is what you do when playing small kids. You let them win.
To me it seems he is doing his very best. You, by your own admission, do not.
Now whats that if not..... I know you are a sportsman so I will not use the word above

This game is wonderful but it sadly only rarely results in evenly matched late game clashes. Because either Axis steamroller gets stopped... or not.
I think you are deliberately trying to ensure that meaty action is going to happen. And I really do believe it when you say, you do not care whether you win or lose as long as the match was awesome. It will probably also be more entertaining for the viewers.
But then it is sort of a show match and everyone should know that.

@Lothos: My 2c unit count in NA: The way you designed the Qattara depression in combination with lower movement it is already nigh impossible to get through to Cairo. Allied player just needs to defend the eastern exit.
But if an Axis player still tries to achieve a breakthrough by numbers, he would have to evacuate Italians to make room for Germans. How realistic is that?

I'm not doing a show match and I resent that you implied that dude...and here in public too.
Obviously your experience in grognard wargaming is limited. When I have played serious wargamers, occasionally we made 'adjustments' mid match to accommodate something that was found to be unrealistic or erroneous.
As it is, in my current match..I had 4 PZ Divisions, a PZ Corps, half the Luftwaffe and Flak AA units in Libya.
Guess that's not enough.
Well thing is there's more to come in that theater, but I'm not going to spoil things by writing a out it here.
In the case of the current match I'm having with Taxman, I made the strategic choice to devote most of Germany's resources towards Barbarossa.
I'm after the USSR to defeat them if I can.
That means not tying up 3 armored corps in NA when I need to try to get to Moscow before the winter blizzards hit.
USSR crippled means every other theater is easy pickings.
Also I stand with my words about gimmicky play.
If that's how to 'win' than I won't do it.
Others can. Go for it.

[Taxman66]

1.3 Bug

Discovered that the UK HQs can control Brazil's units and provide their planes with full supply.

[Lothos]

1.3 Bug

Discovered that the UK HQs can control Brazil's units and provide their planes with full supply.

This seems like a bug to report to the devs. THat even though Brazil is under the USA that because the UK is set with the ability to attach minors to their HQs, it appears they can do it with any minors that in the Allies even if that minor belongs to a different major power.

[gremlok]

Hi all

Just tried out 1.4 until end Dec 1940. While I like the mod overall, the current iteration makes it unplayable to me. I tried my luck as the Allies, but there is virtually no counter to subs. They are hard to kill, dive away and have ZOC. That makes them OP. I had task forces of 2-3 dd, 1 cl and cvl yet whenever I managed to spot a sub I could attack with only 1 ship, the others couldn't get close due to the zoc. A sub should be killable if spotted, surrounded and attacked repeatedly in a turn. Just like you can with any other naval asset. Yes I read somewhere that the sub isn't a single submarine but a wolfpack, but the same is true for the destroyers and motor boats (they are not single ships but flotillas), yet they die easily in 2-3 attacks.

Also, the extra turns give the Axis a huge advantage as they are virtually guaranteed to bomb Malta into submission. And the MPP cost will always be worth the improved supply situation in NA. Sure it took my opponent 5 turns, but the Allies could not fight the Italian navy and the Luftwaffe at the same time, so I could not intervene. The extra spotting range doesn't do anything.

I resigned as I couldn't manage to kill a single sub, despite having found several with my tf but unable to attack. Instead, he would pick off my boats and slip away. That said, I played a far better opponent and would probably have lost NA anyway, but if the fundamental game dynamic doesn't adhere to the principle of rock-paper-scissors then it doesn't work imho.

[Lothos]

Hi all

Just tried out 1.4 until end Dec 1940. While I like the mod overall, the current iteration makes it unplayable to me. I tried my luck as the Allies, but there is virtually no counter to subs. They are hard to kill, dive away and have ZOC. That makes them OP. I had task forces of 2-3 dd, 1 cl and cvl yet whenever I managed to spot a sub I could attack with only 1 ship, the others couldn't get close due to the zoc. A sub should be killable if spotted, surrounded and attacked repeatedly in a turn. Just like you can with any other naval asset. Yes I read somewhere that the sub isn't a single submarine but a wolfpack, but the same is true for the destroyers and motor boats (they are not single ships but flotillas), yet they die easily in 2-3 attacks.

Also, the extra turns give the Axis a huge advantage as they are virtually guaranteed to bomb Malta into submission. And the MPP cost will always be worth the improved supply situation in NA. Sure it took my opponent 5 turns, but the Allies could not fight the Italian navy and the Luftwaffe at the same time, so I could not intervene. The extra spotting range doesn't do anything.

I resigned as I couldn't manage to kill a single sub, despite having found several with my tf but unable to attack. Instead, he would pick off my boats and slip away. That said, I played a far better opponent and would probably have lost NA anyway, but if the fundamental game dynamic doesn't adhere to the principle of rock-paper-scissors then it doesn't work imho.

I actually disagree with you and had the experience I was expecting as both Allies and the Axis. Subs are NOT ment to be destroyed if you find them. That is the problem you have is you think you should treat it like any other ship and they are not. It is WAY to easy for the allies to find subs in the middle and end of the game and destroy the Axis entire submarine fleet and have the Atlantic turn into an Allied private lake.

People who play the allies are spoiled when it comes to this regard under the old rules. The Allies have enough ships where they can patrol every convoy line and leave absolutely nothing open for the Axis subs. So by your definition you see a sub you should be able to destroy it and the Axis then have to spend 150 MPP and wait about 6+ months for it to arrive to only be destroyed within the first month of it being built again.

That is not what historically happened and it is counter to how the game should work and NO you should NOT be able to kill a sub if you surround it. They have this ability to dive. Since the game engine only makes the sub dive 1 hex which makes it easy to find the sub because all you have to do is move a single ship into their previous hex (because it is NOT random) it makes it super easy to kill them. These changes were designed to help subs survive.

In my allied game I killed some German subs and still hunting them down just like it should be.

As for Malta, well there is absolutely NO WAY to stop them if the Axis commit everything. I have made Malta as hard as it can be. It was WAY easier to take it than before and all the other games make it even easier. The Greece changes are to provide a potential alternative to the Axis to try and get Yugoslavia in the war. The UK then can commit their forces to try and delay the Axis as long as possible. The longer they are delayed in Greece the more likely they can't do Malta or start and early Barbarossa.

[gigiduru]

Hi all

Just tried out 1.4 until end Dec 1940. While I like the mod overall, the current iteration makes it unplayable to me. I tried my luck as the Allies, but there is virtually no counter to subs. They are hard to kill, dive away and have ZOC. That makes them OP. I had task forces of 2-3 dd, 1 cl and cvl yet whenever I managed to spot a sub I could attack with only 1 ship, the others couldn't get close due to the zoc. A sub should be killable if spotted, surrounded and attacked repeatedly in a turn. Just like you can with any other naval asset. Yes I read somewhere that the sub isn't a single submarine but a wolfpack, but the same is true for the destroyers and motor boats (they are not single ships but flotillas), yet they die easily in 2-3 attacks.

Also, the extra turns give the Axis a huge advantage as they are virtually guaranteed to bomb Malta into submission. And the MPP cost will always be worth the improved supply situation in NA. Sure it took my opponent 5 turns, but the Allies could not fight the Italian navy and the Luftwaffe at the same time, so I could not intervene. The extra spotting range doesn't do anything.

I resigned as I couldn't manage to kill a single sub, despite having found several with my tf but unable to attack. Instead, he would pick off my boats and slip away. That said, I played a far better opponent and would probably have lost NA anyway, but if the fundamental game dynamic doesn't adhere to the principle of rock-paper-scissors then it doesn't work imho.

I was your opponent and i think you played fine. I agree with the sub ZoC being too much. I have sugested to Lothos to maybe make it 5. I am playing 2 other MP games at the same time - one with Lothos himself and one with another - both allied. In my 2nd allied game the only sure way i know to actually kill the damn things is brining half of the RN to kill one sub. I do 3 CVL 3/4 DD 1 CL 1 CA 1 CC task forces that run around the map with 'fleet movement' and surround the subs. The trick is that when you first see the sub - if you can't attack it - surround it's avenues of escape and bring more ships. It's very costly and time consuming and a good Axis player can take advantage and sortie out the KM to punish you.

In order to learn the game you have to play it and see what others do then incorporate that into your gameplay. I'm sorry that you didn't want to continue the game until longer. My plan was to take Gibraltar then NOT ATTACK USSR in '41. I would have built up - let USSR built up and also wait for entrance of US. I started rebuilding what you destroyed of the KM and also extra ships. Indeed i would have pushed on Egipt to have a 2nd front vs the USSR. I wanted a clash of big armies because i never experience that.

Hopefully after you cool down you unblock me and we can share some feedback and maybe play again.

[gremlok]

It’s a video game and if there is no balance it isn’t entertaining. It’s your mod so you decide whatever makes sense to you and I respect the time and effort you put into this. I preferred 1.3 for sure as I don’t think subs should play a major role in this game. I guess I prefer the original game mechanics where subs don’t have superpowers but can die like any other unit.

Re. Malta I don’t know what the solution should be, not sure it can be fixed. But combined with the Germans being able to mass panzers in Libya it’s not looking good for Monty.

[Lothos]

It’s a video game and if there is no balance it isn’t entertaining. It’s your mod so you decide whatever makes sense to you and I respect the time and effort you put into this. I preferred 1.3 for sure as I don’t think subs should play a major role in this game. I guess I prefer the original game mechanics where subs don’t have superpowers but can die like any other unit.

Re. Malta I don’t know what the solution should be, not sure it can be fixed. But combined with the Germans being able to mass panzers in Libya it’s not looking good for Monty.

But subs played a major role in the war! You may not want them to play a big role in the game but the purpose of the mod is to try and make the game as realistic as possible. If subs would dive better than just one hex then I would nerf some of my changes but right now a sub diving is pretty useless because you always know where it goes.

[Duedman]

It is a game. And it should be fun.
Hunting Subs is already easily the least fun part of the game and this makes it even worse.
Finding them is easy. But not beeing able to kill one counter with like 15 ships is infuriating.

I see where Lothos is coming from. Atlantic should be no private Allied pond. But this is no solution.

Maybe significantly increase the MPPs plundered but make them vulnerable again? But also increase passive plunder defense by ASW research?

Or make them cheaper and quicker to build but decrease their max build limit so they are not such a potent weapon as "sea recons"?