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byron13
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RE: Japanese

Post by byron13 »

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Weighing in here.

This has nothing to do with Political Correctness (I'm about the most un-PC person you'll ever meet). This is about simple manners and respect. I was raised to treat all people with good manners, and using a term to refer to a person I've never met that originated as a derogatory term to describe an enemy does not meet the good manners standard.

Also, I take into consideration how would I like to be treated. I don't like it when people use terms that were initially invented as a derogatory slang expression to describe me. It's the golden rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

So I will refer to the Japanese as Japanese, and I hope they will refer to me as simply an American.

It looks to me like some take pride in being non-PC. PC can be a bit ridiculous. Possibly because I am a little older, the term "Jap" still has negative connotations. I am uncomfortable seeing the term, and I disagree with those like Terminus who believe the important thing is the intent of the user; that's naive since the reader doesn't always know the intent and never the biases.

Shark hits the nail on the head. The test is not what you can call your friends or what you intend. We all have an obvious common interest in AE, but most of us are still essentially strangers. The test is if you're talking at the bar with a friend, would or could a third person overhearing your conversation take offense? Or would you use the term to a person's face if they were a stranger? I venture to say that any of us that are not German and have any sense and cultural intelligence would not walk up to a stranger at the airport with a German passport and say, "Hey, you're a Kraut, aren't you?" Or a spic, wetback, pollack, frog, cannuck, etc.

I'm American. I'm proud to be a Yank. But, when I'm outside the country, I can be fairly certain that, whenever I hear the term used in some conversation I can't understand or overhear completely, the term is being used derogatively. There simply is no reason to use a term that has historically strong derogative connotations when a neutral and respectful term - like Japanese or IJ - is available. Sorry if that makes you type a couple of extra characters on your keyboard. If that's too much effort for you, then I have that much less respect for you as a person.
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byron13
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RE: Japanese

Post by byron13 »

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: witpqs
ORIGINAL: m10bob
Just my observation that most "political correctness police" are huge hypocrites, or have the need to be the guilt-conscience of the world.. Call me Piankeshaw.(No happy face intended.)
Huge, massive, complete agreement on this.
Me too. I deal with Japanese on a professional basis almost weekly. They refer to themselves in text and conversation as Japs. They recognize it is a shorthand. If they don't care, why should you? I'm really tired of little PC nazis who think their view of global sensitivity must be imposed on everyone else.

The issue is one of politeness. I shall always endeavor to be polite. But I will never bow to venal psychobabel.

Get a clue; get a life; view the world as it is; it is a wonderful place.

What people call themselves is the LAST test to apply. African Americans call themselves the "N" word all the time. You come on down south and try using the term in the 'hood; I'm sure they'll understand that you meant it in a polite way. Marines can call each other jarheads with impunity; a Marine is likely to take offense when a civilian stranger calls him a jarhead. Even if he doesn't, why wouldn't the civilian use the term "Marine," which is known to be the proper and respectful term?

And it's naive to talk in terms of politeness since, by posting on the forum, you are essentially speaking to hundreds of people, few if any that you know personally. Since you are dealing with strangers, the golden rule should apply. I guess the point is that the person offender is the person receiving or reading the communication, and they can't always know if the communicator is using the term politely, derogatorily, affectionately, or whatever. The world as it is is one in which people are sensitive about their ethnicity and nationality and generally don't appreciate strangers using historically derogative terms when referring to them. Why not make it a little more wonderful by making an effort to not unintentionally offend someone and use universally accepted terms instead?
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Terminus
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RE: Japanese

Post by Terminus »

The problem is that the world is also full to vomiting point of people who take offense at things which they have no reason to take offense at. Political Correctness doesn't further communication between people, it strangles it.
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
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byron13
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RE: Japanese

Post by byron13 »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The problem is that the world is also full to vomiting point of people who take offense at things which they have no reason to take offense at. Political Correctness doesn't further communication between people, it strangles it.

That's true. I'm not too worried about people that are offended because I happen to wear a blue t-shirt to a football game or drive a Fiat. But there IS a historical reason to take offense at a term like Jap. It was absolutely derogatory during the war. The real point is: why would anyone use the term if they knew it was used derogatively - and almost exclusively so - in the fairly recent past and there is a good chance that someone might take offense for that reason? The term Jap is known to be offensive to some. Knowing this, some would insist on using the term anyway. Why? Too lazy to type Japanese? You don't care what the other person thinks? Sorry, to me it is a courtesy in a world in which courtesy is sorely lacking.

Gawd, I really do sound like a bleeding-heart liberal. I'm not. I think PC has gone too far. But this is just common courtesy. Enough people have expressed their preference for not using the term on the forum, and not using it places no additional burden on anyone. That should be enough.
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wdolson
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RE: Japanese

Post by wdolson »

There is one school of thought that likes to be cute and use the most syllables possible to describe someone or something.  That sort of PC is kind of ridiculous IMO. 

On the other hand, there are terms that are laden with historical context and historical meaning that the recipients usually find offensive and there are usually perfectly acceptable terms you can use that don't sound like you read the dictionary in your spare time.  I consider that form of "PC" (for lack of a better term) just being a polite human being.

The term Japanese has been in common usage in the English language from just about the time the West became aware the place existed.  OK, it is two syllables more than "Jap", but it isn't some tongue twister like "East Asian Islander of Nippon" or some such oddity.

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witpqs
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RE: Japanese

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The problem is that the world is also full to vomiting point of people who take offense at things which they have no reason to take offense at. Political Correctness doesn't further communication between people, it strangles it.

And PC is not about being polite (politeness is what byron13 was mostly describing IMO), it is about about applying the social pressure of false accusation for political/social purposes.
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Terminus
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RE: Japanese

Post by Terminus »

ORIGINAL: byron13

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The problem is that the world is also full to vomiting point of people who take offense at things which they have no reason to take offense at. Political Correctness doesn't further communication between people, it strangles it.

That's true. I'm not too worried about people that are offended because I happen to wear a blue t-shirt to a football game or drive a Fiat. But there IS a historical reason to take offense at a term like Jap. It was absolutely derogatory during the war. The real point is: why would anyone use the term if they knew it was used derogatively - and almost exclusively so - in the fairly recent past and there is a good chance that someone might take offense for that reason? The term Jap is known to be offensive to some. Knowing this, some would insist on using the term anyway. Why? Too lazy to type Japanese? You don't care what the other person thinks? Sorry, to me it is a courtesy in a world in which courtesy is sorely lacking.

Gawd, I really do sound like a bleeding-heart liberal. I'm not. I think PC has gone too far. But this is just common courtesy. Enough people have expressed their preference for not using the term on the forum, and not using it places no additional burden on anyone. That should be enough.

How many people are "enough"? I've heard precisely three people say this (one of whom has also admitted that he can't see it happening), and I've also heard a Japanese member say he didn't mind.
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Shark7
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RE: Japanese

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The problem is that the world is also full to vomiting point of people who take offense at things which they have no reason to take offense at. Political Correctness doesn't further communication between people, it strangles it.

And PC is not about being polite (politeness is what byron13 was mostly describing IMO), it is about about applying the social pressure of false accusation for political/social purposes.

And TBH it is like I said, the PC chooses to be offended at the drop of a hat (I probably just offended some PC person that likes hats [8|] ). Again, if the PC crowd would take a good long look in the mirror, they'd find out why they are always offended by other people.

byron13 and witpqs are right as well. There is a big difference between being polite and being politically correct.
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Cribtop
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RE: Japanese

Post by Cribtop »

The only thing I will add to this is that "Yank" offends me as I am a Texan descended from South Carolinians. [;)]
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timtom
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RE: Japanese

Post by timtom »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Or he overlooked the little ";)" at the end of Timtom's post. That's what you get when you don't use the smileys provided.

The appropriate term would be "smiley-challenged", thank you very much.
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Terminus
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RE: Japanese

Post by Terminus »

Smiley-dingbat...[:'(]
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witpqs
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RE: Japanese

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: timtom

The appropriate term would be "smiley-challenged", thank you very much.

[:D]

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sfbaytf
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RE: Japanese

Post by sfbaytf »

Terminus,

Keep in mind I only speak for myself-not the entire race-so don’t take what I say for myself as applying to everyone else of Japanese decent. I’m also not a “mainlander Japanese American” and I’m half Chinese. The Chinese will not hesitate to use racial slurs directed at the Japanese as they don’t like what Japan did to them in WW2 and there has always been animosity between the 2 that exists to this day.

When my dad married my mom it was a very big deal. When he brought her home to meet the parents, my grandmother when absolutely ballistic. The very first words from my grandmother’s mouth in Cantonese were “you married a Jap!” It was complete pandemonium. To do something not long after the nationalists were run out of China and after what happened in WW2 was very unusual. Today in America its not such a big deal, (in Japan or China probably not so) but back then it was the equivalent of a Caucasion man bringing home an African American wife in the deep south. You just didn’t do those sort of things back then.

One thing I did notice growing up and having family on both sides, was the stark differences between the 2. Looking back its easy to see why a small country like Japan could over run China. The Chinese side was always squabbling with each other, trying to outdo one another and fighting over material things. The Japanese side was less well off, but they stuck together as one and shared whatever they had without a second thought. I never saw any fighting or squabbling on the Japanese side.

At least I got to eat well. Had the best home cooked Japanese, Chinese and American food. Many times we would have family friends over on the weekends for a feast. That where I met my dads co-worker and friend who was in the Marines during WW2 and served up to Viet-Nam. My dad served in the Navy and drove landing craft so they had something in common-not to mention eating, drinking and playing cards. I know for a fact my dad friend was at Pelieu-as his wife mentioned that on more than one occasion as well as the slurs directed at General McArthur. I still have all the medals he gave to me and his ribbons have 3 battle stars on them. I never once hear him or his wife say anything bad about Japan or the Japanese people. I would not be surprised if they despised Gen MacArthur more than they did Japan. They treated me like their son and my mom was just like another family member to them. Same with the other family friend I met later on who as at Iwo Jima.

Growing up across from a Marine base I had friend who fathers were serving. My best friends dad was definitely at Guadalcanal. He too treated me just like his son and got along very well with my mom and dad. Looking back another thing that stands out was he drove a Toyota. This was when it was first introduced in America and considered "junk". Here you have a Master Gunnery Sergeant, who served on Guadalcanal driving a newly introduced Japanese back in the early 70's when it was considered junk.

I think over time some, but not all come to some sort of internal peace of what happened in WW2.
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Terminus
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RE: Japanese

Post by Terminus »

I have no problem with what you're saying, but I fail to see why I should have a problem with people finding the word "Jap" offensive, when they have no reason to do so.
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sfbaytf
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RE: Japanese

Post by sfbaytf »

I don't know the answer to that. Some people have internal beliefs that its wrong and will say so. I will tell you this. Treating others as you would like yourself to be treated is a good way to live. Its opened up many doors and given me many opportunities I would have never had, simply because other saw me a positive light.
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Historiker
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RE: Japanese

Post by Historiker »

Reminds me of a history group in a german social network. The group picture was the famous proclamation of the 2nd German Empire.
After two years, some dumb ass leftist showed up to whine around "Why that picture, it might insult a frenchmen".
Apart from being a german website, he started whining without even being concerend. I stated that one might consider changeing the picture when a frenchmen might actually show up but that I doubt they would care just a little. They might also have pictures of the Arc de Triomphe which reminds of victories over Germany - and no one would ever consider tearing that down.

Two months later, the group founder changed the picture without anyone actually ever stating he was insulted.
Isn't there enough time to discuss this when a Jap shows up?

If he credible states that he is really insulted, I will apologize and never write it again. But I defenitly will not change a thing in my words only because some PC-Fashists try to tell me to do so. I am polite with the one that might be personally insulted, but I don't care whether others cry bittlery because I don't fit their view of the world!
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treespider
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RE: Japanese

Post by treespider »



I've got your picture of me and you
You wrote "I love you" I wrote "me too"
I sit there staring and there's nothing else to do
Oh it's in color
Your hair is brown
Your eyes are hazel
And soft as clouds
I often kiss you when there's no one else around

I've got your picture, I've got your picture
I'd like a million of you all 'round myself
I want a doctor to take your picture
So I can look at you from inside as well
You've got me turning up and turning down
I'm turning in I'm turning 'round

I'm turning Japanese
I think I'm turning Japanese
I really think so
Turning Japanese
I think I'm turning Japanese
I really think so
I'm turning Japanese
I think I'm turning Japanese
I really think so
Turning Japanese
I think I'm turning Japanese
I really think so

I've got your picture, I've got your picture
I'd like a million of them all 'round myself
I want a doctor to take your picture
So I can look at you from inside as well
You've got me turning up I'm turning down
I'm turning in I'm turning 'round

I'm turning Japanese
I think I'm turning Japanese
I really think so
Turning Japanese
I think I'm turning Japanese
I really think so
I'm turning Japanese
I think I'm turning Japanese
I really think so
Turning Japanese
I think I'm turning Japanese
I really think so

No sex, no drugs, no wine, no women
No fun, no sin, no you, no wonder it's dark
Everyone around me is a total stranger
Everyone avoids me like a cyclone Ranger
Everyone...

That's why I'm turning Japanese
I think I'm turning Japanese
I really think so
Turning Japanese
I think I'm turning Japanese
I really think so
I'm turning Japanese
I think I'm turning Japanese
I really think so
Turning Japanese
I think I'm turning Japanese
I really think so
Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

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Terminus
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RE: Japanese

Post by Terminus »

Oh dear, Forrest... You're going straight to heck now...[:'(]
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Terminus
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RE: Japanese

Post by Terminus »

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

I don't know the answer to that. Some people have internal beliefs that its wrong and will say so. I will tell you this. Treating others as you would like yourself to be treated is a good way to live. Its opened up many doors and given me many opportunities I would have never had, simply because other saw me a positive light.

We agree, but why does this not apply to the people who "feel offended" at the use of the word "Jap"? Why aren't they called on to be tolerant?
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Historiker
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RE: Japanese

Post by Historiker »

Touché [:D]
Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

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