Invasion of the US by Japan

[Mr.Frag]

It would have been a good thing to do, but the real delay imposed by for example the complete destruction of the lochs at any given point would have been to shut down the canal for three months. It is a fairly trivial task to reroute a section of a major canal for a short interval. It basically just entails moving a lot of dirt. By 1940 the US was much better at moving giant quantities of dirt than when the canal was originally constructed.

Tthat really depends on how well they did their homework. Blowing it up at the lake dam that supplies all the water to run the locks would shut her down for a long long time ... blowing it in one of the individual lock sections would be rebuilt fairly quickly.

This is too funny, I see Mogami already replied with exactly this ... can't keep up, must stop eating, takes too much time...

[pry]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

It would have been a good thing to do, but the real delay imposed by for example the complete destruction of the lochs at any given point would have been to shut down the canal for three months. It is a fairly trivial task to reroute a section of a major canal for a short interval. It basically just entails moving a lot of dirt. By 1940 the US was much better at moving giant quantities of dirt than when the canal was originally constructed.

Tthat really depends on how well they did their homework. Blowing it up at the lake dam that supplies all the water to run the locks would shut her down for a long long time ... blowing it in one of the individual lock sections would be rebuilt fairly quickly.

This is too funny, I see Mogami already replied with exactly this ... can't keep up, must stop eating, takes too much time...

Frag, actually the Pacific side is better than the Atlantic in terms of messing the canal up; there is a set of dual locks at Mira Flores with Mira Flores Lake right behind it. The water level in the lake at the upper lock at Mira Flores is 54 feet and at the bottom of the lower lock sea level.

Destroy both locks at Mira Flores the lower lake drains and it is then a sudden drop of 85 feet out of the Miguel Pedro lock on Gatun Lake. it would take a long time to repair the Mira Flores Locks refill Mira Flores lake, Not to mention the effect of draining that much water out of Gatun Lake there is only 37 feet of navigable water. Pulling that much water would make Gatun Lake nearly if not totally UN navigable until it was refilled. (I forget how long it took to fill originally but it was in the term of years)

Destroying the Mira Flores Lock would be catastrophic and take much longer than 90 days to fix and be considerably more involved than moving a bunch of dirt around. Before anyone asks you can not refill the lake with sea water the lakes on the Panama Canal supply nearly all the drinking water used in Panama.

[LargeSlowTarget]

ORIGINAL: stljeffbb

I have to admit, I'm not sure where the majority of US shipping was made off hand.....Norfolk? What facilities if any were making, say, Essex class CVs on the west coast? I'll have to check my Jane's manual for that info.

AFAIK all capital ships except BB California were built at east coast shipyards - I think because the steel industry is (was) located predominently in the Eastern USA. Essex class CVs were built at Newport News (9), Bethlehem Quincy (5), New York Navy Yard (4), Norfolk Navy Yard (3) and Philadelphia Navy Yard (3).

EDIT: FYI, California was built at Mare Island Navy Yard. This yard also started work on BB-51 Montana of the old South Dakota class in 1920, but construction was cancelled in 1922 due to the Washington Treaty.

[stljeffbb]

WOW! So taking out the canal would slow those ships up considerably! That would indeed change things. How long does a journey around Cape Horn take? Also, it would be interesting to see the units available in July 1941.....I would assume that its mostly similar with December 1941....probably fewer P-40s, A6M2s, etc

Jeff

[bradfordkay]

(The chess player in an impossible positon that plays on hoping you will run out of time rather then resign)

Hey now, Mog! That was me... okay, I was sixteen and playing my track coach (who was also the president of the Virginia Chess Federation at the time) for third place in a local tournament. After the match he told me that it was my unconventional style that confused him, but I think that he purposely gave me the match.

[bradfordkay]

I don't want my games "terminated." When I play a campaign game, I want to play the campaign. I want my opponent to play the game to the conclusion point or not at all.

Past, you'd better demand a medical report from every prospective opponent. I hate to say this (and am not wishing this on anyone), but there will probably be some of us who will never survive long enough to see the end of a full campaign game.[;)]

[mdiehl]

How long does a journey around Cape Horn take?

It adds about 1 month to transit time from the US east coast to the west coast for merchant vessels. Considerably less for vessels with sustained cruisng speeds of about 13 knots. The big delay would be imposed on DDs, who would have to be accompanied by refueling vessels or else refuel in some South American port.

All this talk of engineering is nice, but with enough pumps even Lake Erie could be quickly refilled. I think youall are not thinking about the problem the right way. The way to scrag the Panama canal is not to atack the waterways, or the lochs, or whatever. The way to really scrag the Panama Canal is to (a) invade Panama .. an inelegant solution, or (b) sink a USN capitol ship, I mean really scrag the thing, while it is in transit in the lochs.

USN staff would probably then spend at least a month just studying the problem of whether or not to simply raise the ship in situ or whether to dig an alternate channel around the obstruction.

[Mr.Frag]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I don't want my games "terminated." When I play a campaign game, I want to play the campaign. I want my opponent to play the game to the conclusion point or not at all.

Past, you'd better demand a medical report from every prospective opponent. I hate to say this (and am not wishing this on anyone), but there will probably be some of us who will never survive long enough to see the end of a full campaign game.[;)]

Ha! after 2 strokes and 3 heart attacks, I'll probably outlive you all! Life to too funny to take seriously.

[Mike Scholl]

One big problem with all these "blow up the Panama Canal schemes is that they
assume that the US would allow a Japanese ship loaded with an explosive com-
pound into the canal zone in the first place. Americans controlled the canal, and
had a lot of "defensive build-up underway there before the war in addition to the
fixed defenses. War Warnings were arriving regularly in the Fall of 1941. Yet
you assume that this freighter reaking of diesel feul and ammonia, or packed
with dynamite, or whatever is going to be allowed to sail merrily into the locks
and blow itself up. Not saying sabotage was impossible..., but I don't think it
would have been as easy as some folks are assuming given that it was expected
and being watched for.

[mogami]

Hi, The Canal was closed to Japanese shipping in July 1941

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The Canal was closed to Japanese shipping in July 1941

Thanks, Mogami. Thought I remembered reading something about tyhat,
but I couldn't find the source to state it for sure.

[Damien Thorn]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The Canal was closed to Japanese shipping in July 1941

Well, since Japan used a lot of forign shipping they could have used another ship flagged under a different country. It's like all the cruise ships that dock in Florida. None of them are registered as American. They are all registered to some Carrabean island to avoid paying taxes.

The sad thing is that we are probably just as vulnerable to this sort of tactic from terrorists today. The only difference is it wouldn't be the canal, it would be New York Harbor.

[stljeffbb]

Was there any real-life historical Japanese thought of sabotaging (sic?) the Panama Canal? Did they even think of it? [>:]

Jeff