Invasion of the US by Japan

[stljeffbb]

Could you give any hints regarding the layout and how difficult it will be for Japanese forces to invade starting at Dutch Harbor? In PacWar, the Japanese can roll fairly easily with 7+ divisions to Seattle early in the game....I know this will not be PacWar....will one be able to build bases like in UV.....will there be militia armed with shotguns waiting in Alaska [;)](one thing I've done in PacWar edits).

Sorry if this has already been asked and answered, and thanks for any replies

Jeff

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: stljeffbb

Could you give any hints regarding the layout and how difficult it will be for Japanese forces to invade starting at Dutch Harbor? In PacWar, the Japanese can roll fairly easily with 7+ divisions to Seattle early in the game....I know this will not be PacWar....will one be able to build bases like in UV.....will there be militia armed with shotguns waiting in Alaska [;)](one thing I've done in PacWar edits).

Sorry if this has already been asked and answered, and thanks for any replies
Jeff

WITP aims to be much more historical than PacWar..., so this theory is/should be dead
in the water from the start. The Japanese lacked the shipping to land 7 divisions at
Dutch Harbor and support them, and a glance at any decent map will show you that
there aren't any decent overland routes from Alaska to Seattle---its a coastal wilderness
area. The AlCan Highway, when it's built, runs to Montana, not Washington.

In reality, Japan had been trying to beat China for 4 1/2 years with no other opposition
in the field..., and she had failed. Didn't it ever occur to you playing PacWar that it
seemed kind of silly for a small nation that couldn't beat China to be able to attack the
US successfully with a supply line running all the way across the Pacific? While still at
war with China, and with the British Empire tossed in just to keep things interesting?
PacWar was a fun geme..., but a lousy simulation. WITP aims higher.

[Joel Billings]

ORIGINAL: stljeffbb

Could you give any hints regarding the layout and how difficult it will be for Japanese forces to invade starting at Dutch Harbor? In PacWar, the Japanese can roll fairly easily with 7+ divisions to Seattle early in the game....I know this will not be PacWar....will one be able to build bases like in UV.....will there be militia armed with shotguns waiting in Alaska [;)](one thing I've done in PacWar edits).

Sorry if this has already been asked and answered, and thanks for any replies

Jeff

There are rules that simulate the political demands to focus on Japan first if the US is invaded. If the Japanese are east of a certain line that runs just west of Seattle, all US air and ground reinforcements are moved up 6 months. In addition 4 divisions that would otherwise be available in 1943 become immediately available on the West Coast. It would seem suicidal to invade the US, although I'm sure someone will try to do it. Alaska is another thing, but why bother?

[stljeffbb]

Thanks for the replies......

...yes, it does seem a little too easy to march from Juneau to Seattle in PacWar (especially with new PWv3.2 arctic air rules)....perhaps the land paths never should have existed.

....concerning beating China....I can contain it pretty well in PacWar......by grouping four divisions together starting in Changsha, one can wrap up the entire area south of Kweiyang. Against unaware opponents, I have been able to capture all of China (with help from India divisions from the west).

....concerning resistance in the U.S......I'm glad to see the stepped up arrival times of troops in WitP.

I'm very much looking forward to WitP and the chance to try some U.S. invasion strategies. If one groups all available forces, ignores most of the other areas except for taking lightly defended areas in everywhere from Philipines, Java, New Guinea, etc., and goes for the throat, so to speak, it will be interesting to see. I just want to find out what can be done. It should be quite a problem to solve!

Even though you probably have all of the beta testers you need, I would be interested in testing this out if someone is needed to test results against invading the West Coast....

Thanks,

Jeff

[Mike Scholl]

Actually STLJEFFBB, one of the things that worries me about WITP is that testing so
far has demonstrated that in 1941-42 the Japs ARE ABLE to shove the Chinese
around pretty freely. This with reduced support, supply, and troops from what
they had available before the "big" war began. People love to quote the results
of additional Japanese efforts in 1943/45 as proof that the Japs COULD push the
Chinese around---but those efforts were made by armies that had been expanded
considerably from what was available in 1941-42.

The game (in it's alpha incarnation) also might give you enough shipping to try an
"Invasion of America", but seems to get it right in that all it will give you is an enor-
mous case of indigestion. You're certainly welcome to try anything you want....,
but if the final version of WITP is as good as we hope then most of the wilder
conquest schemes of PacWar and such will end in Japanese tragedy. The truth was
that Japan just didn't have the "poop" to carry them off.

[mogami]

Hi, I have not tried to invade the US West Coast. I would think you needed to take Hawaii on the way and I did try this before. It costs 1/3 of the IJN and 200 transports to do. (And PH defense is better now then when I tried) The CD units on the West Coast are large.
Japan will suffer logistical nightmares if SRA not taken before May 1942 (The sooner the better because these bases can be damaged and it requires a huge investment of time and supply to get them repaired and feeding the Japanese supply/production system.)
Simply put, there are no available ground units and no transport for going west. The war begins in Dec and "good" weather in the north is still several months off. If Japan concentrates to move East the Allies are going to bust in from the West and South.

[Speedysteve]

Yeah one of the things i'm really looking forward to is trying different strategies with Japan and surviving/destroying as much as I can.

The SRA capture/repair and subsequent industry side of the game is really appealing.

From what i've read and heard I believe this could be the WW2 gaming simulation of all time (to date anyway [;)]

[Damien Thorn]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
Didn't it ever occur to you playing PacWar that it
seemed kind of silly for a small nation that couldn't beat China to be able to attack the
US successfully with a supply line running all the way across the Pacific?

If you are talking about population, Japan was most certainly not a small country. Today Japan has half the population of the US. Considering that almost no one immigrates to Japan and taking into account that Japan lost many more men in WW2 than the US did, I think their population in the 1940's would be even bigger proportion of the US's than it is today. I don't see how population really matters that much anyway.

[Becket]

ORIGINAL: Speedy
From what i've read and heard I believe this could be the WW2 gaming simulation of all time (to date anyway [;)]

Here's hoping that someday they do a game on a similar scale focusing on the war between the Soviet Union and Germany (with Japan there as well, probably).

[paullus99]

I wouldn't say that population had the much of an effect - I mean look at how many men Germany put into uniform (with a much smaller population than the US). What really matters is how many you can supply - Japan can put a lot of bodies into uniform, but they are unable to supply all of them.

The basic lack of shipping - what is technically a 5-Front War (Manchuria, China, CBI, South Pacific & Central Pacific), prevents Japan from being as strong as they need to be on any one of those fronts. All the troops in the world don't matter if you can't get them where they need to be, and more importantly, supply them when they get there.

Mogami is right - unless Japan acts very aggressively in the first 6 months to grab the resources its needs, they will find themselves in a very precarious position as the Allies recover their balance & start to counterattack. Of course, being too aggressive in any one theater (like trying to conquer all of China) will result in a equivalent allied moves elsewhere.

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: Becket

Here's hoping that someday they do a game on a similar scale focusing on the war between the Soviet Union and Germany (with Japan there as well, probably).

I totally agree. A detailed and realistic simulation of that front will be one i'll also definitely buy.

[stljeffbb]

How about through Dutch Harbor? Will it be much harder to land there (as maybe it should be)? I would bypass Pearl entirely.....except for maybe a diversion.

Thanks,

Jeff

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
Didn't it ever occur to you playing PacWar that it
seemed kind of silly for a small nation that couldn't beat China to be able to attack the
US successfully with a supply line running all the way across the Pacific?

If you are talking about population, Japan was most certainly not a small country. Today Japan has half the population of the US. Considering that almost no one immigrates to Japan and taking into account that Japan lost many more men in WW2 than the US did, I think their population in the 1940's would be even bigger proportion of the US's than it is today. I don't see how population really matters that much anyway.

China had a lot more people than the 75,000,000 or so Japanese of 1940---so by your
reasoning China should have kicked Japan's behind. When I said "small" I meant in
terms of Geography and Resources and GNP. Or as Winston Churchill put it to the
Japanese Ambassador before the war started. "Japan produces 9,000,000 tons of
steel, and the USA 90,000,000 tons. Nine Million Tons cannot hope to beat ninty million
tons".

[redman1]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
I don't see how population really matters that much anyway.

[/quote]That's the luxurious attitude of an American talking. The fact is that every other major country in the fight in WWII was stretched to its manpower limit. By 1944 when we invaded Europe, Britain simply had no more able-bodied men of age that it could field without seriously harming its ability to produce war materiel. And it should be noted that like the U.S., Britain had no qualms about using women in manufacturing positions.

Japan, which of course didn't use women in manufacturing to any considerable degree, was far smaller than its adversaries and was fighting on fronts in the West, South and East simultaneously against adversaries - Britain, USSR, US, China - that combined had around one-third of the world's population, and far more of the world's industrial production capacity (yes, I know the USSR didn't actually fight until 8/45, but their presence threatened a confrontation and forced the Japanese to keep a considerable number of troops in Manchuria).

[mogami]

Hi, Japan had 71million people during WWII and the USA had 130million.
case closed.

(Japan produced 9million tons of steel a year when they had IMPORTS. Once the war began Japan could produce 1.5 million tons per year with material she controlled. (She had a large stockpile of scrap and iron from prewar buys and her peak steel production during WW2 was 4.5million tons.)

[paullus99]

www.combinedfleet.com has some great information on the economic differences between the United States & Japan. Whereas the United States had a huge amount of economic slack (from the Depression) that could be picked up and converted the military might, the Japanese economy had been running on all cylinders since the late 1920's almost entirely dedicated to building its military power.

When push came to shove and war broke out, Japan was unable to expand its economy much at all to support the war effort, beyond what it was already capable of. This was one of the prime reasons the Japanese planned on a quick offensive war, then a switch to the defensive (which would require less economic backing).

In WiTP it will be interesting to see how Japanese players deal with the economic & logistics of a much smaller economy while fighting an economic & military giant (the United States) with one hand tied behind its back.

[mogami]

Hi, The point to this thread is that if Japan invades the USA that hand behind the back moves to the front.

[Burkowski]

...And that will be the great fun of it for the Japanese player in WitP- working against those shortages to make the most of lots of individual tactical situations contributing to a coherent and patient strategic defense strategy... and experimenting with all of the possibilities left untried by the real Japanese... and, I hope, without the extreme "left field" possibilities...
The small-screen version of it for IJN in UV is the constant shortage of enough sealift, enough base forces to spread the "red," etc. Now, in WitP, we'll get the big picture with the industrial/economic package much more realistically visible...
The earlier comments are right on the money... the Japanese were up to their betting limit pretty much by 1942... the idea was to fight smart, bloody noses, and get the Americans to sue for peace, despite the unconditional surrender declarations... also, right, the British were used up, in terms of manpower, by the time of the Ardennes Offensive... the difference was that the Americans were peaking industrially and the Army divisions were still coming...
Personally, I can't wait to play the Japanese side and give my masochism free reign... also, as the Allies, I can't wait to try a much more direct approach at Japan throught the Central Pacific, sort of Montgomery's narrow front approach to the ETO with lots of water added...[:D]

Burkowski

[CynicAl]

"I'm very much looking forward to WitP and the chance to try some U.S. invasion strategies. If one groups all available forces, ignores most of the other areas except for taking lightly defended areas in everywhere from Philipines, Java, New Guinea, etc., and goes for the throat, so to speak, it will be interesting to see."

The really interesting thing to see will be the Allied player's reaction. I'd expect shock and disbelief to predominate early on, but this would increasingly be replaced by glee - glee!- as he realized that, yes, you really were serious about sailing the bulk of your force over to where you couldn't support or supply it, where you would soon be bereft of bullets, beans, and black oil... where your starving, stranded forces would be easy pickings for his fresh, well-fed, and increasingly numerous troops. When the victory point ratio exceeds 2:1 Allied and you are forced to surrender unconditionally before June 1942, I predict your opponent will be so overcome that he will actually break down in tears - tears! - of joy and gratitude.

So... lined up your first PBEM opponent yet?

[BB57]

Had a book title "Brute Force" I think. Loaned it to someone and it hasn't seen the light of day since. Anyway the gist of the book was the Allies lost the tactical war big time. Good news was they won the stratigic war. Example (wrong theater I know) every time they fought Rommel lost 200 tanks Montgomery lost 300 only difference was Montgomery's tanks were replaced. If Japan is going to "win" the ground work has to be layed very early. If Mogami was to publish his first turn it would become a best seller very quickly [:)]