Japanese defensive strategy...

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami

Post Reply
User avatar
LargeSlowTarget
Posts: 4969
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Hessen, Germany - now living in France

RE: Hope for the best but plan for the worst!

Post by LargeSlowTarget »

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

IMHO, the best military axiom of all times is:
"Hope for the best but plan for the worst!"

[...]

But every military conflict (just as Mogami says) proves that even best military plan does not survive the first encounter with enemy.

Regardless of good and/or bad plans - combat is unpredictable!

[...]

Some might say that's providence... some might say that's bad/good luck... but in any case any combat (just like our everyday life) depend on many of those "small" things that, at the end, have very significant impact...

[...]

A few more military axioms that may or may not fit Midway: [;)]

'War is based on mistakes - the side which makes less mistakes will win.'

'War is based on deception, deceive the enemy, not yourself.' (say 'Aleutians')

'Anything you do may get you shot, including doing nothing.'

'Order - Counterorder - Disorder.'

'Everything being equal, the side with the simplest uniform wins.'

and my old sig: 'If your attack is going really well, you are walking into an ambush.'
User avatar
Apollo11
Posts: 25339
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Leo's Midway plan...

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: mdiehl
The difference between a good operational plan and a cruddy one is the degree to which a single error does not ruin the plan. The Allied plan at Midway was a good one. The Japanese plan at Midway was a bad one. The Allied plan at Balikpapan was a good one. The Allied plan on 8 August with respect to disposition of forces was a poor one. The Japanese plan that night was a good one.

Like I wrote in my message preceding this Japanese had terrible plan that only seem to suit their military philosophy and ancient ways (they simply loved to create humongous multitask multilayer plans)...

But as well, you can't deny, that even best initial plan must be updated and having good commander and staff on spot is better than having multi branch "what if" scenarios prepared in advance.

None of those things were ideal. Indeed, they almost certainly HURT the US effort at Midway far more than they helped. There was a strong likelihood that a series of strung out attacks would occur, owing to the operation from 2 TFs and a land base making uncoordinated attacks with respect to each others' launches. One cannot view some other general set of conditions in re the timing of American airstrikes as likely, or even reasonably plausible. If, however, one insists on pretending that somehow the "wearing down of the IJN CAP" was a factor, you have to consider the alternative. More than 120 USN naval aircraft arrive as a coordinated effective mass, wholly overwhelming the paltry Japanese CAP, rather than allowing them to defeat the first couple waves in detail. In addition, B17s attack at a time when IJN ships are unable to maneuver to avoid all possible attacks concurrently, along with B26s and Midway based SBDs and TBDs. It's a recipe for slaughtering Japanese ships that makes the real event look like a lucky outcome for Japan.

No thing is ideal.

But, it turned out that way since all pieces of puzzle perfectly come together for US at Midway (i.e. all events leading to big finale of destruction of Japanese CVs)...

Now flip the coin on its head. You are a Japanese operational planner. You have a major enemy land-aerodrome operating against you, and possibly one enemy CV operating in the area. It's challenging to maintain effective CAP-cac... despite your pilots' experience you've never before faced a prepared enemy capable of opposing you with real force, w;though your comrades on Sho and Zui have. Coral Sea, an action that occurred some weeks before, has taught some of your peers you that your uberpilots in their uberplanes ARE NOT capable of stopping an Allied air strike in its tracks, and that Bushido Spirit will not prevail, nor the gods intervene to protect you, if a moderate force is projected against you. You lost 1 CVL, almost lost a CV (escaping by the skin on your cuticles) and had several IJN air groups wiped out both to the operational exigencies of operating CV-based airgroups in a real carrier battle against pilots and equipment that were better than you imagined them to be.

Now there's Midway, and possibly a US CV. Your plan can assume that you will have the usual plane-handling snafus, that there can be errors in the search etc, and that the US, like you, will probably not have any propensity to coordinate land based strikes with CV based strikes. So you do, as Strike Force did at Midway, put up the same CAP as a force structure, and assume all the Allied pilots will fly like dunces like the propaganda said they would, despite previous experience to the contrary? Moreover, you assume that the opposition will arrive at a time and place of your own choosing and of the greatest convenience to you?

I would have done it way way differently... [;)]

For one thing I would have shut down the Midway airbase with ship bombardment during night.

Midway was small flat island with no hiding place and would be ideal target for big ships (like BBs) bombardment at night. Imagine several BBs (and Japan had plenty of fast powerful BBs for that) pounding that small island during night and state of its facilities in the morning...

I would keep my CVs on lookout for US fleet end never se them to suppress the Midway.


In other words instead of complex multiprong historic Japanese plan I would:

#1
Keep all my CVs (no Aleutian stupidity) for fleet battle cover only (since US was expected to intervene).

#2
Shut down Midway airbase with surface ship during initial night bombardment (that bombardment would precede all other actions).

#3
Keep all ships together (in coherent way) and concentrated on single task - invading Midway and destroying US fleet if it tries to intervene.


Isn't this plan (from naval amateur) much better than historic Japanese one?


If this was done no way US could have won even with in advance warning via "Magic" and all preparation in the world...

And people act like the fact that the Japanese CAP was overwhelmed was an unlikely or even unforeseeable event. Jeesh! [8|]

The unforeseeable event was failure of 1st CV strike to shut down Midway. They believed almost 100% certain that the Midway would be shut down...


Leo "Apollo11"
Image

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE
User avatar
Apollo11
Posts: 25339
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

RE: Hope for the best but plan for the worst!

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

A few more military axioms that may or may not fit Midway: [;)]

'War is based on mistakes - the side which makes less mistakes will win.'

'War is based on deception, deceive the enemy, not yourself.' (say 'Aleutians')

'Anything you do may get you shot, including doing nothing.'

'Order - Counterorder - Disorder.'

'Everything being equal, the side with the simplest uniform wins.'

and my old sig: 'If your attack is going really well, you are walking into an ambush.'


I love the last one (from your old sig) the best! [:)]


Leo "Apollo11"
Image

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE
mdiehl
Posts: 3969
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2000 8:00 am

RE: Hope for the best but plan for the worst!

Post by mdiehl »

#1
Keep all my CVs (no Aleutian stupidity) for fleet battle cover only (since US was expected to intervene).

#2
Shut down Midway airbase with surface ship during initial night bombardment (that bombardment would precede all other actions).

#3
Keep all ships together (in coherent way) and concentrated on single task - invading Midway and destroying US fleet if it tries to intervene.

Isn't this plan (from naval amateur) much better than historic Japanese one?

On the face of it, it seems better. Your proposed naval bombardment isn't likely to work, however, since Midway is probably going to mess up the attacking force unless you dedicate CVs to suppressing Midway. If you suppress Midway, you're back in the same shoes that Japan was in historically. If, however, you cancel the Aleutians operation, you will have a little more CV based air to engage in your move against Midway. Frankly, however, the only really good way that I see to make Midway work is to cancel operation MO and send Sho and Zui to Midway along with the other big four. Then you can dedicate 2 fleet CVs and 2 baby CVs to suppressing Midway whilst keeping four fleet CVs to engage any opposition.
If this was done no way US could have won even with in advance warning via "Magic" and all preparation in the world...

I don't buy that. Even with no advance warning, the best you can get is something like 5 on 4 combat. Coral Sea except on a bigger scale. I do, however, think that if you send 6 CVs, 2 baby CVs to Midway and encounter 4 USN CVs, you have a better chance than sending 4 CVs to combat 3 USN CVs. In that event I see the following. 1. Spruance fulfills his orders, inflicting greater damage on the enemy. 2. The USN loses 1-2 CVs and has 1-2 escape crippled. 3. The IJN loses 2 CVs, loses maybe another one crippled & foundered on the way home, is basically stripped of 5 CVs worth of air group pilots, and seizes Midway. A Pyrrhic Strategic Victory for Japan and a tactical draw or victory for the USN.
Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?
User avatar
Mr.Frag
Posts: 11195
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 5:00 pm
Location: Purgatory

RE: Hope for the best but plan for the worst!

Post by Mr.Frag »

Mind if I ask a question in all of this?

What purpose does Midway serve in Japan's war plan? I never really came to terms with it. Even had it somehow succeeded, what was the point? PH was and always would be an untouchable goal.
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

Midway!

Post by mogami »

Hi, The way I understand it Midway was a target the Japanese believed the US would have to come out to defend. They thought the US reaction would not begin until after they had closed the airfield on day one. They would spend day two setting up an ambush of the USN reaction and fight the big battle that won the war on day three or four. I'm not sure what the northern force was actually for since it was too small, the weather too bad and the target not likely to detract from whatever reacted towards Midway.
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
Apollo11
Posts: 25339
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

RE: Leo's Midway plan...

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: mdiehl

On the face of it, it seems better. Your proposed naval bombardment isn't likely to work, however, since Midway is probably going to mess up the attacking force unless you dedicate CVs to suppressing Midway. If you suppress Midway, you're back in the same shoes that Japan was in historically. If, however, you cancel the Aleutians operation, you will have a little more CV based air to engage in your move against Midway. Frankly, however, the only really good way that I see to make Midway work is to cancel operation MO and send Sho and Zui to Midway along with the other big four. Then you can dedicate 2 fleet CVs and 2 baby CVs to suppressing Midway whilst keeping four fleet CVs to engage any opposition.

Why wouldn't night naval bombardment work?

Japan had plenty 29-30 knot BBs with big guns that would vaporize anything on that small piece of land called Midway.

In my plan Japanese CVs would never be used for Midway suppression.

Japanese CVs should only be used to protect other Japanese ships and to destroy US fleet if it comes to intervene.

Also, there is no force separation - there is force unification with CVs as core and strike force with all other forces to support and protect it.

I don't buy that. Even with no advance warning, the best you can get is something like 5 on 4 combat. Coral Sea except on a bigger scale. I do, however, think that if you send 6 CVs, 2 baby CVs to Midway and encounter 4 USN CVs, you have a better chance than sending 4 CVs to combat 3 USN CVs. In that event I see the following. 1. Spruance fulfills his orders, inflicting greater damage on the enemy. 2. The USN loses 1-2 CVs and has 1-2 escape crippled. 3. The IJN loses 2 CVs, loses maybe another one crippled & foundered on the way home, is basically stripped of 5 CVs worth of air group pilots, and seizes Midway. A Pyrrhic Strategic Victory for Japan and a tactical draw or victory for the USN.

Japan could have never won the war.

But Japan could have won some battles (many of which were historicaly lost).

The Midway was one of those since almost whole Japanese naval strength was in action and US forces were many many times smaller...

BTW, I would always bet on Japanese 6x CVs + 2x CVLs (and whole fleet with lost of CAs + BBs) against US 4x CVs + some CAs...


Leo "Apollo11"
Image

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE
User avatar
Apollo11
Posts: 25339
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Great single battle with USN that would decide the whole war...

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Mind if I ask a question in all of this?

What purpose does Midway serve in Japan's war plan? I never really came to terms with it. Even had it somehow succeeded, what was the point? PH was and always would be an untouchable goal.

Japanese naval military thinking in years before the WWII was concentrated on single idea:

"Great single battle with USN that would decide the whole war!"


This was the only reason why Midway was chosen - it was thought that US would do anything possible to defend it and, thus, the great battle would come...


Leo "Apollo11"
Image

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: Leo's Midway plan...

Post by mogami »

Hi, You could hedge your bet with Naval Bombardment by having the carriers 150 miles behind 30kt ships can move 360 miles in 12 hours. How long is darkness in June in that part of the Pacific?
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
Apollo11
Posts: 25339
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

RE: Leo's Midway plan...

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, You could hedge your bet with Naval Bombardment by having the carriers 150 miles behind 30kt ships can move 360 miles in 12 hours. How long is darkness in June in that part of the Pacific?

This is no problem at all....

Idea is to keep whole Japanese fleet together all the time.

When night start to fall the naval bombardment TF would dash forward to do it's job leaving the rest of fleet behind just for that single night.

IMHO all Japanese CVs (and CVL's) together would be more than enough to counter unescorted long range air attacks from Midway with CAP and, at the same time, be on constant alert against US fleet (an never be used to suppress Midway - that is left to naval bombardment)...


Leo "Apollo11"
Image

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: Leo's Midway plan...

Post by mogami »

Hi The problem is what do you do if the USN says "OK take Midway"?
The IJN can't stick around forever and Midway is a very close invasion target from PH. The IJN does not want to get in range of all those aircraft (Hawaii)
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
Mr.Frag
Posts: 11195
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 5:00 pm
Location: Purgatory

RE: Midway!

Post by Mr.Frag »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, The way I understand it Midway was a target the Japanese believed the US would have to come out to defend. They thought the US reaction would not begin until after they had closed the airfield on day one. They would spend day two setting up an ambush of the USN reaction and fight the big battle that won the war on day three or four. I'm not sure what the northern force was actually for since it was too small, the weather too bad and the target not likely to detract from whatever reacted towards Midway.

They actually thought that the USA would offer peace over a loss at Midway??? I've always wondered about their thought processes, they must have been reading too much German propaganda. Even direct landings on the West Coast would not have caused the USA to surrender or come to the peace table.
Rummy
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:00 pm
Location: Arizona

RE: Hope for the best but plan for the worst!

Post by Rummy »

I'm new to this topic, so I don't want to come across as all-knowing, but the first post really intrigued me when Apollo 11 suggested Japan should take what can be taken, then go on the defensive.

As an amatuer WWII scholar, I couldn't disagree more, since that essentially was Japan's strategy and it failed miserably. Granted, their greatest setback came in an offensive move, but trying to bleed the Americans dry by leaving garrisoned strongholds in the middle of the Pacific was a disaster. I've not played UV enough to know whether this will be possible in WITP, but I would go on the offensive and stay on it for as long as possible.

Japan gave the initiative to the U.S. and never recovered. That was their doom.
Rodney J. Ross III
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: Midway!

Post by mogami »

Hi, If both sides had understood the other there would have been no war.
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: Hope for the best but plan for the worst!

Post by mogami »

Hi, Rummy I think the idea is to not make territory your aim but to always only be targeting enemy war material. The Japanese objective is to sink ships and destroy aircraft and land units. Once this is no longer possible without undue risk then Japan has to wait to inflict a major defeat on the enemy. This they can only do from a intialy defense posture. They have to let the enemy define the "where" and "when". (Then they bring more "what" then the enemy counted on)
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
Mr.Frag
Posts: 11195
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 5:00 pm
Location: Purgatory

RE: Midway!

Post by Mr.Frag »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, If both sides had understood the other there would have been no war.

Yea well, there is always that fact to offset all others [:D]
User avatar
pasternakski
Posts: 5567
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2002 7:42 pm

RE: Hope for the best but plan for the worst!

Post by pasternakski »

Japan did not give the initiative to the Allies. It was taken from them by force.

It is hard to keep the initiative when you have extended yourself beyond the ability of your resources to sustain you.
Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: Hope for the best but plan for the worst!

Post by mogami »

ORIGINAL: Rummy

I'm new to this topic, so I don't want to come across as all-knowing, but the first post really intrigued me when Apollo 11 suggested Japan should take what can be taken, then go on the defensive.

As an amatuer WWII scholar, I couldn't disagree more, since that essentially was Japan's strategy and it failed miserably. Granted, their greatest setback came in an offensive move, but trying to bleed the Americans dry by leaving garrisoned strongholds in the middle of the Pacific was a disaster. I've not played UV enough to know whether this will be possible in WITP, but I would go on the offensive and stay on it for as long as possible.

Japan gave the initiative to the U.S. and never recovered. That was their doom.


Hi, No one will dispute the fact that Japan cannot build and maintain a defensive barrier. The idea is to defeat the USN at some point when it attempts a breakthrough. In WITP Japan does not have to win the war. It can even be forced into surrender and the Japanese player still gets at least a draw. We have an easier mission. What is most important is to not lose Japanese offensive power in meaningless high risk operations.
Keep the sword sharp and in a raised position ready to make a counter stroke and chop off the enemies head once he sticks his neck out.
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
pasternakski
Posts: 5567
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2002 7:42 pm

RE: Midway!

Post by pasternakski »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, If both sides had understood the other there would have been no war.

The sides understood each other quite well. That's why there WAS a war.
Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

Understanding

Post by mogami »

Hi, Thats one way to look at it. Personally I think both sides were clueless about the other. There was no reason for the war. I mean look how economicly miserable Japan became as a result of losing. The wasted treasure of the war would have paid for all the rebuilding and expansion and improved quality of life with change left over to help buy my beer.
Japan thought losing in China would end their national existance. The USA didn't realize the depth of the commitment and offered few alternatives. Neither side had a carrot for the other. The USA had a bigger stick but Japan thought they could swing theirs first.

(When I hear the phrase "They came to an understanding" I don't usally expect to then hear "And then they beat the crap out of one another")
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
Post Reply

Return to “War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945”