Anyone here who wants to buy my Game?

[wodin]

I too have posted a comment about the tax.

Here in the UK the price is ALWAYS advertised with the tax included aswell as without BEFORE purchase.

This really does need to be addressed.

[Pascal_slith]

ORIGINAL: Chuck B.

Pascal,

Yes, the directive state that it is the obligation of the non-EU supplier. He has to register, charge and remit VAT to the respective authorities (in addition, he has to file quarterly reports). Of couse, like every EU Directive, this one has also to be implemented into the law of the respective Member state (the deadline for that was July 1st 2003).

You are right that the equivalent of this taxation of electronically supplied services for physically delivered goods is customs. In fact in these cases, VAT is "replaced" by customs (I know that this explanation is a simplification of the real issues)

And this is not at all about the legal domain of the EU going beyond its borders, in fact it is exactly about something that happens INSIDE its borders (so-called "place of consumption") under the OECD principles of the 1998 Ottawa conference.

I do not want to fight for this regulation at all, but that's the way it is ...

If we ever discuss ENFORCING this regulation ... that's a very different question and actually an interesting one.

My main point is this: I am totally convinced that it is NOT Matrixgames fault at all - they contracted with DR to outsource the digital download services and they are paying for it (in fact, DR is taking its share from our payments ...). They should demand from DR that the services of DR are running flawless (which is NOT the case) and that they do not fend off customers of Matrixgames, because that is hurting everybody involved. This discussion here give MG some ammunation for its discussion with DR and hopefully they will change it.

Chuck

Enforcement is impossible in non-EU countries, as you say. In any case, which non-EU company in his right mind would set up the accounting and administration for this piece of stupid legislation? And who is going to send auditors to see that VAT is charged and paid? The directive in itself is illegal outside of the EU (find me a court of law in the US, for example, that will enforce this law?).

Matrix's best solution is NOT to work with an EU-based digital distributor like DR. They should work only with US-domiciled servers or non-EU servers (Switzerland, Norway) to distribute 'digital download' items.

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: Pascal
Matrix's best solution is NOT to work with an EU-based digital distributor like DR. They should work only with US-domiciled servers or non-EU servers (Switzerland, Norway) to distribute 'digital download' items.

I think it's up to Matrix to determine what's in their own best interest. They certainly know more than you do about their business.

If Matrix distributed their games exclusively through digital download they might not need a Euro presence. However most of their games are delivered the old fashioned way. Having a Euro distributor is a service to their European customers. In this particular case, with an entirely new method of distribution, there were some bumps in the road. They clearly are concerned and are addressing the problem.

[RealChuckB]

Pascal,

I wouldn't say that it is impossible at all to enforce this regulations, but it is at least VERY difficult.

Without going too much into the general principle that civilized countries normally try to respect other civilized countries laws (the fact that any court outside the EU MAY not enforce this law does NOT make it illegal at all), the EU is well aware that there is an enforcement issue. They used an interesting example in one of their memos by suggesting that non-EU suppliers should be in compliance with this regulation in the same way as they expect others to respect their rights and expressly mentioned Intellectual Property ...

And again, it is probably totally irrelevant where DR is located, if Matrixgames is selling through DR as a service provider, because in this case Matrixgames is responsible for the taxes and not DR (there may be contract provisions that DR will indemnify Matrixgames if any problem arises, put that's another issue). And in addition, the place where the server is located is also not relevant for this matter.

Chuck

[Pascal_slith]

ORIGINAL: Chuck B.

Pascal,

I wouldn't say that it is impossible at all to enforce this regulations, but it is at least VERY difficult.

Without going too much into the general principle that civilized countries normally try to respect other civilized countries laws (the fact that any court outside the EU MAY not enforce this law does NOT make it illegal at all), the EU is well aware that there is an enforcement issue. They used an interesting example in one of their memos by suggesting that non-EU suppliers should be in compliance with this regulation in the same way as they expect others to respect their rights and expressly mentioned Intellectual Property ...

And again, it is probably totally irrelevant where DR is located, if Matrixgames is selling through DR as a service provider, because in this case Matrixgames is responsible for the taxes and not DR (there may be contract provisions that DR will indemnify Matrixgames if any problem arises, put that's another issue). And in addition, the place where the server is located is also not relevant for this matter.

Chuck

Laws of one country are not enforceable outside that country. This is not an issue of 'civilized' or not. Unless you believe that because a woman is convicted in Saudi Arabia of adultery but escapes to the UK, for example, she should be lapidated in the UK, which would be enforcement of Saudi Arabian law.

Again, as long as the provider of the service is outside the EU, there is no need to charge VAT. The EU cannot send its police to Omaha, Nebraska, or whereever.

[Pascal_slith]

ORIGINAL: mjk428

ORIGINAL: Pascal
Matrix's best solution is NOT to work with an EU-based digital distributor like DR. They should work only with US-domiciled servers or non-EU servers (Switzerland, Norway) to distribute 'digital download' items.

I think it's up to Matrix to determine what's in their own best interest. They certainly know more than you do about their business.

If Matrix distributed their games exclusively through digital download they might not need a Euro presence. However most of their games are delivered the old fashioned way. Having a Euro distributor is a service to their European customers. In this particular case, with an entirely new method of distribution, there were some bumps in the road. They clearly are concerned and are addressing the problem.

Given VAT rates in the EU, it's cheaper to send the CD by mail. You seem to misunderstand my take. I in no way have indicated that Matrix has mishandled the issue. In any case, just administering this stupid VAT is pointless AND COSTLY for a non-EU company, especially a small business.

[RealChuckB]

ORIGINAL: Pascal

ORIGINAL: Chuck B.

Pascal,

I wouldn't say that it is impossible at all to enforce this regulations, but it is at least VERY difficult.

Without going too much into the general principle that civilized countries normally try to respect other civilized countries laws (the fact that any court outside the EU MAY not enforce this law does NOT make it illegal at all), the EU is well aware that there is an enforcement issue. They used an interesting example in one of their memos by suggesting that non-EU suppliers should be in compliance with this regulation in the same way as they expect others to respect their rights and expressly mentioned Intellectual Property ...

And again, it is probably totally irrelevant where DR is located, if Matrixgames is selling through DR as a service provider, because in this case Matrixgames is responsible for the taxes and not DR (there may be contract provisions that DR will indemnify Matrixgames if any problem arises, put that's another issue). And in addition, the place where the server is located is also not relevant for this matter.

Chuck

Laws of one country are not enforceable outside that country. This is not an issue of 'civilized' or not. Unless you believe that because a woman is convicted in Saudi Arabia of adultery but escapes to the UK, for example, she should be lapidated in the UK, which would be enforcement of Saudi Arabian law.

Again, as long as the provider of the service is outside the EU, there is no need to charge VAT. The EU cannot send its police to Omaha, Nebraska, or whereever.

Pascal,

So your message is basically: Go wherever you like, decide for yourself and by your own ethical standards if you like the laws of this country or not and violate all the laws you don't like - that's ok, because they will not be able to punish you? (That may be illustrate my point about civilized).
You are right that the risk of actual punishment is very low (although you would be surprised that it is indeed often possible to enforce the laws of one country outside that country), but that doesn't legitimize your actions.

Point is: I don't think that the EU VAT system is a good one (we haven't talked yet about the real problems with the handling: 10 different VAT rates that range from 15% to 25%!!!), but if you are coming from outside and want to purposeful do business in this area, it is not up to you to decide, what is right and what not.
The "message" from the EU memo I mentioned is: A software company from outside the EU (like Matrixgames [Example]) (rightful) expects the European courts and executive to enforce it's rights in the EU (especially IP: Trademark, Copyright, Patents) and go after fraud with credit cards or theft of its property - in exchange, the EU expects this company to respect the EU rights.

Chuck

[Buck Beach]

This thread is one hell of a boring waste of time over $10 or $20 US. [>:] Consider the value of time and effort. There are five plus pages of posts that could have gone into the game discussion.

I feel for the guy who thinks he got stiffed but stuff happens.

This issue is way over blown.

[2Stepper]

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

This thread is one hell of a boring waste of time over $10 or $20 US. [>:] Consider the value of time and effort. There are five plus pages of posts that could have gone into the game discussion.

I feel for the guy who thinks he got stiffed but stuff happens.

This issue is way over blown.

Ya know? In some regards I have to agree. I'm shocked the debate is raging on. Though it does appear a tad healthier then the last time I read into it which is good... I mean I can understand Matrix wanting to make sure all their customers are happy... I mean why wouldn't they? To imply otherwise is silly...

I lived in the UK for 7yrs almost and the VAT was everywhere... it's a fact of life... Maybe with the appropriate tweeks this'll never be an issue again. Either way, methinks our brother grogs in EU will still be happy as will MG3 once he calms down. WiTP is a winner in all respects far as I'm concerned. [8D]

[freeboy]

Right.. I think back to those days when I went to Canada and paid two taxes.. a prov and a national.. over 21% and they taxed one after the other so a tax on a tax... flipped me out... and I was at that time living in "taxachusetts"

[petdoc]

Um... not quite. Our national tax is 7% (GST), and each province has its own provincial tax (usually 7-8%). Added together gives you 14-15%. No province has 14% sales tax. This of course doesnt include things like hotel, gas (for flights) blah blah blah tax. Now I made myself depressed. Well at least I live in Alberta now! No provincial sales tax and a fascist for a premier yeah!

[herbieh]

And below is the perfect reason why I wont be trying to download. Was a bit annoyed at paying ten bucks extra, but ce la vie. Will be very annoyed if Im still waiting for CD in August.

Pasterniski, best description of torture Ive read in years...[:D]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

@MG3

All kidding aside, I'm sure you will be glad you bought this game once you get into it, no matter that it wound up costing you 10 or so Euros more than you would have liked.

I sat here for almost three years waiting for this thing. It was always stated to cost 69.99 American dollars. I thought that I would see a standard production cycle, use my credit card on the Web site, pay that amount plus postage for a CD, wait a few days, and that would be it.

Oh, no. Down toward the end, along came "digital download." It cost the same $69.99, but you got no CD. Moreover, here I sat in the dark, wooded areas where DSL and cable Internet connections have yet to penetrate. Another ten bucks, and I could get a CD shipped, at some indeterminate time in the future, as a "backup." 56k downloads of 466 Mb programs don't have much of a track record for being successful.

I was p1ssed. Several people who showed up at the Origins convention this summer in Columbus, Ohio were able to buy multiple CD copies of the game. Living a couple of thousand miles away from the convention site and not having as much money as God, I had no such opportunity.

So, what did I do? I spent 80 bucks for what I thought was going to be a 70 buck game in order to get the eventual sure thing, then went for the 5 1/2 Kb/s download to try to get it as soon as possible. First time around, I got timed out on my ISP server after I had 27 percent of the game downloaded (this was the first time I knew that my ISP even timed you out on its servers). I hit the download button again. DR and Internet Explorer understood each other, and I was able to resume from where I left off.

Along about 3:30 a.m., I hit the wall again at 55 percent. This time, the whole deal screwed the pooch and I was dead in the water. I watched in horror as some 260 kb file downloaded and then IE announced, "Download complete." Obviously, I had 250 Mb or so of garbage. It headed for the recycle bin. 16 hours invested, 16 hours down the oubliette.

As I was fishing around in my cutlery drawer for a suitable instrument with which to slash my wrists, I saw a recommendation on these forums for a download manager called "GetRight." As I'm not getting any fish taco right now, I decided, "Okay, one more time. I got no other life."

It was 5:30 p.m., Friday afternoon. I fired up GetRight, got back onto the download page, and let 'er rip. Got bounced off my server at almost exactly the same point as I did the first time. Reconnected to the Internet. GetRight and DR resumed the two-humped beast position without difficulty.

I realized that the next roadside bomb would explode at around 55 megs. I calculated that to come at around 3:00 in the morning or so. I settled back, imagining the tortures that I could visit on Gary Grigsby, David Heath, and the rest of the infidel swine at Matrix and 2by3. I lasted a long time, but finally fell asleep.

I awoke, shagged and fagged and fashed, at 5:00 a.m. I blearily wiggled my mouse (no editorial comments, please) to reactivate my screen. Sure enough, I was dead in the water. I thought, "This is it. This is the end. Or at least the end of the beginning. Or maybe the beginning of the end." You can see how crazed I was in my silk panties.

In pain, I reconnected to my ISP. Amazingly enough, GetRight and DR still lusted after each other enough that my download resumed where it left off. So did I.

I tried to get up and occupy myself with household chores. I mopped the kitchen floor. I kicked Eleanor Rigby out from behind the door. The toilets (WCs to you like) and I went to war. All the while, I kept an eye on the dialogue box, calculating where I was. Two thirds. Less than 200 megs to go. Three quarters.

I knew whaat was coming. The end, inglorious and detestible, like Gregor Samsa on the wall. This was in accordance with my usual bad luck in drawing cards at poker and picking numbers in lotteries. I was never destined to finish this download. Even more, if I did, the d@mned thing would never install, much less run.

I hit 84 percent. Bam! I could hardly breathe. Pow! GetRight and DR, like two exhausted lovers, fell apart from each other right in front of my eyes.

I went for a walk outside, trying to clear my head. All I could think was, "I coulda been a contenda. Instead, I wound up a two-bit punk." Realizing how silly that was, I went back in to face the music. Gingerly, I popped up my ISP connection dialogue. Breathlessly, I entered my password. With a silent prayer, I hit "enter."

Like an episode of "The Outer Limits," GetRight yanked control of my TV set away from me like a big dog after a pork chop on Grandma's lap. Suddenly, the little fluttery document was flying across the dialog box again. The 10-kilobyte increment numbers were advancing like the LED display on a gas pump (faster for money than for gallons, of course).

I was frozen in time. I was the steak from the Stones' "Mother's Little Helper." I was transfixed (okay, I wasn't crucified, but it was a cathartic moment nonetheless).

To make a short story long, the counter counted off the counting until the counting was done. 26 hours it took (with a couple off for dozing). I had it.

I couldn't stand it. Feverishly, I got off the Internet (what is that again?) and double-clicked on that treasured icon. It installed, for Chrissake. More miraculously than that, it ran. It ran like a Kennedy for public office.

I've never been the same.

Before or since.

Ten bucks or so? Forget about it. It's the experience, not the dough.

I still ain't got the CD.

[Feinder]

(* round of applause for Paternaski! *)

Here! Here!

-F-

[freeboy]

Um... not quite. Our national tax is 7% (GST), and each province has its own provincial tax (usually 7-8%). Added together gives you 14-15%. No province has 14% sales tax. This of course doesnt include things like hotel, gas (for flights) blah blah blah tax. Now I made myself depressed. Well at least I live in Alberta now! No provincial sales tax and a fascist for a premier yeah![quote]
ok trip in the maritaimes.. note I said first trip.. so this was maybe 1988 or 1989.. in new bruns or Nova Scot.. and I think it was 12 and 7.. but the first tax was applied after totallying not like you would just add the two together like in the states.. I pay a sales tax on most goods in CO, live in the denver area and pay city and state... different stores in different city sights have different taxes...

My point wasn't the 22% after factoring.. it was my shock... talk about shock and awe.. I really love canada, most of Canadians are wonderful...

[Didz]

ORIGINAL: soeren01
The laws requiring the VAT are fairly new ( it passed legislation some month ago ) and are part of the European Union Tax Laws.

That may be true from the US perspective but we have had VAT in the UK for a decade and I beleive the law relating to the 'invitation to treat' (the contractors offer to sell) go back to medieval times. The fact is that the seller is required to quote an clear and accurate price to the buyer. If there is any misunderstanding, deliberate or otherwise, then the contract is null and void.

In the UK if a seller inadvertantly advertises an item for the wrong price they are duty bound to sell at the price shown unless they can prove that the point of contract occurred later in the transaction. Which in the case of an internet purchase is not the case.

ORIGINAL: Pascal
The directive does not state that it is the obligation of the non-EU supplier to collect the VAT. It only says the transaction is subject to VAT. It is the resident of the EU country that has to pay the VAT. Thus if I am a resident of an EU country and buy a book at Amazon.com in the US, it is up to me to pay VAT when the package goes through customs. Same for software, no matter what the transmission method. The legal domain of the EU cannot go beyond its borders.

If you are correct. And I have no reason to doubt you. Then WHY is Matrix charging its EU customers VAT. Logic suggests that by charging its customers VAT, Matrix are in receipt of this additional money. If they don't pass it on to our respective governments as Input VAT then where is it going?

Surely Matrix don't get to pocket it[X(]

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

You were not overcharged. You were not cheated.

Now, let me deal with the issue of being charged taxes. It is common practice in the United States for prices *not* to include applicable taxes. Oftentimes, the calculation of those taxes cannot occur until specific informaiton about where the product is shipped are known.

I'm afraid you have missed the point here. The issue is not whether Matrix have deliberately overcharged its European customers but that its European order page is misleading about the price the customer is going to be charged.

Nor, is it an insurmountable or difficult issue to solve as your comments suggest. It is perfectly feasible to request the customers country of origin and to calculate the correct tax for that country before completion of the order. the fact that Matrix do it afterwards is testimony to that fact.

And even if for some bizarre technical reason 'programmer intransigence for example' Matrix were unable to do this simple thing, then a simple change to the order screen making it clear that the price quoted is NOT THE TOTAL PRICE but only the TOTAL EXCLUDING IMPORT DUTY AND TAXES would at least warn the customer that he is not reading the final cost to him of the purchase.

Its not rocket science and its not impossible and contrary to your assertion we are not whining. MG3 raised a valid complaint which happens to be a right of consumers in the EU when we don't think we have been treated fairly. Customs in the US may be different but my expereince of American's stationed here in Britain is that you lot complain more often and even more loudly than we do.

ORIGINAL: WhoCares

74.98EUR +17.5% VAT => 88.10EUR

And converted to $:
88.10EUR *1.22 = 107.48$

So, via EU shop you pay 34% more than in the US for the same product!

Thats not necessarily true. What you failed to take note of is that on the US order form it clearly states that the price quoted will have Local state taxes and VAT added where applicable. This would in fact bring the cost of the item up to much closer to the 88.10 EUR you calculate.

Unfortunately, it looks like whoever designed the EU order form didn't use the US one as a template and failed to add the statement confirming that VAT was excluded from the Total price. This may have been because the intention was to add it to the amount quoted as is customary but either way its a badly designed form.

[Marc von Martial]

If you are correct. And I have no reason to doubt you. Then WHY is Matrix charging its EU customers VAT. Logic suggests that by charging its customers VAT, Matrix are in receipt of this additional money. If they don't pass it on to our respective governments as Input VAT then where is it going?

I want to make this clear again. Not we are selling these products it´s Digital river that is selling them. They´re our sale reps. And they´re based in the EU.

[Pascal_slith]

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

If you are correct. And I have no reason to doubt you. Then WHY is Matrix charging its EU customers VAT. Logic suggests that by charging its customers VAT, Matrix are in receipt of this additional money. If they don't pass it on to our respective governments as Input VAT then where is it going?

I want to make this clear again. Not we are selling these products it´s Digital river that is selling them. They´re our sale reps. And they´re based in the EU.

People should read this 5 times and write it down 10 times before continuing this thread.

[Didz]

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

If you are correct. And I have no reason to doubt you. Then WHY is Matrix charging its EU customers VAT. Logic suggests that by charging its customers VAT, Matrix are in receipt of this additional money. If they don't pass it on to our respective governments as Input VAT then where is it going?

I want to make this clear again. Not we are selling these products it´s Digital river that is selling them. They´re our sale reps. And they´re based in the EU.

So, in that case they must be paying their Input VAT to the UK's H.M.Customs & Excise. They must also be subject to UK law regarding the display of VAT information prior to purchase.

[Pascal_slith]

ORIGINAL: Chuck B.



Pascal,

So your message is basically: Go wherever you like, decide for yourself and by your own ethical standards if you like the laws of this country or not and violate all the laws you don't like - that's ok, because they will not be able to punish you? (That may be illustrate my point about civilized).
You are right that the risk of actual punishment is very low (although you would be surprised that it is indeed often possible to enforce the laws of one country outside that country), but that doesn't legitimize your actions.

Point is: I don't think that the EU VAT system is a good one (we haven't talked yet about the real problems with the handling: 10 different VAT rates that range from 15% to 25%!!!), but if you are coming from outside and want to purposeful do business in this area, it is not up to you to decide, what is right and what not.
The "message" from the EU memo I mentioned is: A software company from outside the EU (like Matrixgames [Example]) (rightful) expects the European courts and executive to enforce it's rights in the EU (especially IP: Trademark, Copyright, Patents) and go after fraud with credit cards or theft of its property - in exchange, the EU expects this company to respect the EU rights.

Chuck

You have misread and misunderstood what I have written. Again, laws of one country cannot be enforced in another, nor are they applicable. Only a change in the law in the second country adopting the first country's law can change things. You have a strange notion of the law.

As to the protection of Intellectual Property, the countries of the EU signed the Bern Convention YEARS before this most recent ridiculous piece of legislation. They cannot abrogate their obligations vis-a-vis IP protection unless they want to face the same for EU IP in other countries.

[*Lava*]

Hi!

I live in Spain. Seems from what I'm reading here that if I order the game via digital download I'm going to pay close to $100.00.

Isn't digital download suppose to be cheaper? The company doesn't have to produce the CD, the box, the manual and ship the product.

Sorry, but I ain't paying $100.00 for a digital download of ANY game, and I don't care how good it is.

Ray (alias Lava)