Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

[;)]

English Lurker......

Enter the Unreal Tournament 2004 forum and prepare to eat a Rocket.

[:'(]

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

I think my biggest problem is, that I´ve got the same opinion like Ron Saueracker! Every thread I´ve read so far in a year where Ron posted, he was mowed down by 10 others.

Nikademus:

A picture is worth a thousand words :

This is the kind of crap which has kept the game so innaccurate on so many levels. Those who want to fix the game vs those who like to feather their nest and solidify their place for some future project. Result...mediocrity. Oh well...[8|]

Feather...nest? I thought that judges offered Beta service as an alternative to hard time. That's the reason the prisons are full and the Betas are short handed. [:D]

[DuckofTindalos]

Excuse me, while I go open the door for the mods to come in and close down this namecalling fest! [:D]

[Speedysteve]

Shh. If we're quiet the mods may turn a blind eye. Actually, how do you turn a blind eye and what the point if its blind you don't need to turn it? [;)]

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Speedy

[;)]

English Lurker......

Enter the Unreal Tournament 2004 forum and prepare to eat a Rocket.

[:'(]

Muhahahaha. Foolish Nikademon. Enter thy world and get Fragged. Err doesn't sound right on this forum [:D]

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Shh. If we're quiet the mods may turn a blind eye. Actually, how do you turn a blind eye and what the point if its blind you don't need to turn it? [;)]

Actually this has (supposedly) a naval origin. IIRC, at the Battle of Copenhagen (?), someone told Nelson that there was a signal flying for him to withdraw (this was when Nelson wasn't the supreme naval commander). Anyway, Nelson, who didn't want to withdraw, put a telescope up to his blind (and patched eye), trained it on the flagship, and replied that he saw no such signal, and continued the fight (which he won...)

Now how this will translate to YOU and your CRT, i am not sure...

EDIT - urk - i am telling this to an Englishman? Coals to Newcastle, i think!

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

[
Muhahahaha. Foolish Nikademon. Enter thy world and get Fragged. Err doesn't sound right on this forum [:D]

Scratch Rocket......Flak shell. Giblets!!!!!!!!

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker


Well, ya asked for it with the shot.[;)]

And what shot was that Ron? If Castor wants to think that people disagree with him because he's an ersatz you and people with contrary opinions are simply interested in mowing him down as a result, thats his right. Me, such a silly statement deserves only a [8|]

Kind of like your comment about WitP being "medicore"

[8|][8|][8|][8|][8|]

[:'(]

The way I read his post (the grammar is not 100% so it hurts his intent on a few occasions) was that because he was critical, he immediately got swarmed by the "warm and fuzzies". Because he mentioned me, your comment came across as well, pretty darn durogatory.

I replied with my broadside.

KaBlammo! TM[8D]

[Ron Saueracker]

What's that bit from Dr. Strangelove?

"You can't fight in here...this is the War Room."

Kinda applies, eh?[;)]

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker


The way I read his post (the grammar is not 100% so it hurts his intent on a few occasions) was that because he was critical, he immediately got swarmed by the "warm and fuzzies". Because he mentioned me, your comment came across as well, pretty darn durogatory.

[8|] is pretty darned derogatory....

ok.

[8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|]

[:)]

[Panzer76]

ORIGINAL: treespider
I just listed NINE Japanese CV's sunk with comparable damge to the original post.

I didn't notice that the original poster's CVs were struck by FOUR torpedos or cought with fuelled airplanes, and bombs lying all over their deck. Must be my bad.

[DuckofTindalos]

TAXI!!! The Copacabana, and step on it...

[Nikademus]

Yez...go away u svine!!!!

or I will Taunt you aGAIN!

[:'(] [:'(] [:'(] [:'(] [:'(] [:'(] [:'(] [:'(] [:'(] [:'(] [:'(] [:'(] [:'(]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker


The way I read his post (the grammar is not 100% so it hurts his intent on a few occasions) was that because he was critical, he immediately got swarmed by the "warm and fuzzies". Because he mentioned me, your comment came across as well, pretty darn durogatory.

[8|] is pretty darned derogatory....

ok.

[8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|]

[:)]

Pooping on my Canuck accent now? Luvly. Since we are in grade school at the moment, I'll meet ya by the monkey bars at recess.[:'(][;)]

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Panzer76

ORIGINAL: treespider
I just listed NINE Japanese CV's sunk with comparable damge to the original post.

I didn't notice that the original poster's CVs were struck by FOUR torpedos or cought with fuelled airplanes, and bombs lying all over their deck. Must be my bad.

Other than at Midway, the other 5 or 6 real life CV's that were sunk with comparable damage didn't either. In addition, were bombs strewn all over the place and planes refeuling on the 4th Jap CV at Midway?

HIRYU

Sunk: At 1703 while preparing to launch strike against enemy carrier, attacked by thirteen enemy dive bombers. Four direct bomb hits received, all closely spaced. The first three landed in a row on the fore part of the flight deck, the blast of the nearest flinging the forward elevator bodily against the island. The fourth bomb struck amidships beside the bridge. The hits set off furious fires and induced explosions among aircraft being scheduled to launch in an hour. Though initially able to maintain 28 knots and withdraw to the west, the fires gain steadily. At 2123 goes dead in the water, and KAZAGUMO and MAKIGUMO detached to stand by. At 0158 a major induced explosion occurs, and hope is lost. Abandon ship is ordered, and ComCarDiv 2 Yamaguchi gives a farewell speech, and remains aboard with Captain Kaku Tomeo. Yamaguchi orders the carrier scuttled, and after survivors removed by KAZAGUMO and MAKIGUMO, at 0510 scuttled by MAKIGUMO with one torpedo in the starboard side opposite the bridge. (Scuttling position 31-38'N, 178-51'W). The MAKIGUMO then withdraws without confirming the sinking. Therafter, at 0630 a plane from HOSHO finds and photographs HIRYU still afloat and with survivors clearly seen still aboard. The destroyer TANIKAZE is dispatched, but before she arrives, the carrier at 0912 upended and sank by the bow in a position between 240 - 260 miles NW from Midway. Of the 70 men marooned aboard, only thirty-five are eventually rescued by the U.S. Navy, including her Chief Engineer. A total of 418 officers, petty officers and men are listed as lost with the carrier, but this does not appear to exclude the POWs, so the actual figure would be 383 lost.

My only point from all of these historical examples was that Japanese CV's appear to be extremely vunerable. The game depicts this through flooding damage. Perhaps it was easier to code than providing code to make Japanese CV's more suseptible to Critical hits as appears to be the historical case. IRL of the 20 or so Japanese CV's at least 10 ended up sunk after receiving damage similar in nature to CastorTroy's ships.

[treespider]

Here's number 11 albeit a CVE

TAIYO

18 August 1944:
Sunk: Off Cape Bolinao, Luzon, at 2222 struck in starboard quarter by one torpedo of two fired by USS RASHER. The torpedo struck the ship's aft av-gas tank which exploded violently, and the carrier was engulfed in explosions and fires. At few minutes later an oil tank amidships in the port side exploded with tremendous force, and it was thought by some to be another torpedo hit. Captain Sugino ordered abandon ship, but soon after, TAIYO was wracked by another final huge explosion and sank at 2248 in position 18-10'N, 120-22'E. Because of the fire and speed of sinking, most of her crew were lost. Approximately 747 officers and men perished; but by some miracle, Captain Sugino Shuichi was among the less than 100 survivors.

[Bradley7735]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Panzer76

ORIGINAL: treespider
I just listed NINE Japanese CV's sunk with comparable damge to the original post.

I didn't notice that the original poster's CVs were struck by FOUR torpedos or cought with fuelled airplanes, and bombs lying all over their deck. Must be my bad.

Other than at Midway, the other 5 or 6 real life CV's that were sunk with comparable damage didn't either. In addition, were bombs strewn all over the place and planes refeuling on the 4th Jap CV at Midway?

HIRYU

Sunk: At 1703 while preparing to launch strike against enemy carrier, attacked by thirteen enemy dive bombers. Four direct bomb hits received, all closely spaced. The first three landed in a row on the fore part of the flight deck, the blast of the nearest flinging the forward elevator bodily against the island. The fourth bomb struck amidships beside the bridge. The hits set off furious fires and induced explosions among aircraft being scheduled to launch in an hour. Though initially able to maintain 28 knots and withdraw to the west, the fires gain steadily. At 2123 goes dead in the water, and KAZAGUMO and MAKIGUMO detached to stand by. At 0158 a major induced explosion occurs, and hope is lost. Abandon ship is ordered, and ComCarDiv 2 Yamaguchi gives a farewell speech, and remains aboard with Captain Kaku Tomeo. Yamaguchi orders the carrier scuttled, and after survivors removed by KAZAGUMO and MAKIGUMO, at 0510 scuttled by MAKIGUMO with one torpedo in the starboard side opposite the bridge. (Scuttling position 31-38'N, 178-51'W). The MAKIGUMO then withdraws without confirming the sinking. Therafter, at 0630 a plane from HOSHO finds and photographs HIRYU still afloat and with survivors clearly seen still aboard. The destroyer TANIKAZE is dispatched, but before she arrives, the carrier at 0912 upended and sank by the bow in a position between 240 - 260 miles NW from Midway. Of the 70 men marooned aboard, only thirty-five are eventually rescued by the U.S. Navy, including her Chief Engineer. A total of 418 officers, petty officers and men are listed as lost with the carrier, but this does not appear to exclude the POWs, so the actual figure would be 383 lost.

My only point from all of these historical examples was that Japanese CV's appear to be extremely vunerable. The game depicts this through flooding damage. Perhaps it was easier to code than providing code to make Japanese CV's more suseptible to Critical hits as appears to be the historical case.

There are some recent books written that state the other 3 CV's at midway also didn't have a flight deck load of planes and bombs. They were down in the hangar deck.

Treespider: You can add a 10th CV to your list. The USS Princeton. Sunk by 1 250 kg bomb. (probably 250kg) How many folks would scream if this happened in WITP? (Japanese or allied example)

And, I believe the Zuiho came pretty close to sinking from 2 500lb hits. I'm not real sure, but I think they had a hard time getting her back to port. These weren't the big bombs, but the ones that the SBD scouts flew with.

in one of my AI games, I hit Zuikaku with 11 1,000 lb bombs. She was near Gili Gili. She must have made it to Rabaul and survived. Of course that's with FOW, so maybe it was 6 or 7 true hits. Who knows. But, I was upset when she didn't show up on the sunk ship list after 90 days. Two years later, she came back out to play and got propmtly sunk, though.

[treespider]

Of course there are examples like these with massive amounts of damage or where the CV survived.

CHUYO

4 December 1943:
At 0010, hit by in port bow magazine by torpedo from USS SAILFISH (SS-192) in position: 32-30'N, 143-40'E. Though magazine does not catch fire, the bow plates are torn and the forward part of the flight deck collapses. But the carrier is able to maintain headway, and in order to proceed, Captain Tomasaborou reverses direction and begins to steam backwards towards Yokosuka at half-speed. But at 0555 is hit again by two torpedoes in the port engine room in a second attack. Ship is stopped dead in the water and unable to navigate - position: 31-55'N, 143-40'E. Destroyer URAKAZE and cruiser MAYA come to assist, and air cover from the homeland arrives overhead at dawn. Despite this aid, at 0942 the ship is again attacked and hit by one or two torpedoes in the port side. Flooding massively, she now quickly rolled to port and plunged by the bow at 0948. As a result, loss of life was very heavy: Captain Tomasaborou and 1,250 officers, men, and passengers went down with the ship. Among the lost were twenty of the U.S. POWs. Only one of the POWs survived to be rescued among the mere 161 survivors found by SAZANAMI and URAKAZE.

SHOHO

7 May 1942:
Battle of the Coral Sea
Sunk: At 0755, while attempting to cover the Tulagi and Port Moresby invasion forces, attacked by carrier torpedo and dive-bombers from USS LEXINGTON and USS YORKTOWN. The light carrier is overwhelmed, and struck by a reported total of seven torpedoes and thirteen bombs in the space of twenty-three minutes. At 0835 she sinks stern first on an even keel, taking down with her 631 officers, petty officers and men. Captain Izawa Ishinosuke is among the fortunate 131 officers and men and seventy-two wounded rescued by the SAZANAMI.

SHINYO
17 November 1944:
0800: SHINYO and HI-81 get underway for the Shushan Islands near Shanghai, and SHINYO launches aircraft for patrol throughout the day. At 1215: One enemy B-29 sighted when in position 34-08'N, 125-39'E. SHINYO's Kates are frustrated and unable to climb to destroy the snooper. But no enemy activity ensues and the day passes without incident. However, at 1815 just as SHINYO is landing her last airborne patrol, directly in front of her the MAYASAN MARU is torpedoed and sunk by USS PICUDA (SS-382) with the loss of over 3,000 men.
2303: When about 200 kilometers southwest of Saishu Island, struck by a (claimed) total of four torpedoes in the starboard side of six fired by USS SPADEFISH (SS-411). The submarine had brazenly attacked on the surface, and remained so throughout. The first torpedo hit the stern, instantly disabling the turbo-electric motors and stopping the carrier. The impact detonated the poorly protected av-gas tanks and caused a tremendous explosion and fire. Other hits followed, and SHINYO burst into a blazing inferno and began to list rapidly to starboard and settle aft. She fell out of the convoy formation at once and contact with her was lost, though escort destroyer KASHI counter-attacked the submarine with uncertain results. (It also appears that SPADEFISH's second salvo of four-stern tubes damaged the large SHINSHU MARU to starboard of the SHINYO).
Sunk: Within a few short time (see Discussion Note) her bow reared skyward and she sank stern-first, coming to rest in 23 fathoms with flaming bow still projecting from the water. Position was 32-59'N, 123-38'E. Due to inferno and rapidity of her sinking, and delay in rescue, casualties were very high. Apparently fewer than 200 survivors were rescued, and Rear Admiral Ishii and more than 700 petty officers and men were lost.
18 November 1944:
It appears that no one immediately went to the assistence of the SHINYO or attempted rescue. First to respond was the Commander of MI-27 convoy aboard CD No. 134 who at 0220 ordered CD No. 61 to locate and assist the SHINYO. At 0315 9,000 meters south of the sinking TSUSHIMA attacked and depth charged with fifteen depth-charges an enemy submarine, which on basis of fuel oil and other debris, was claimed sunk in a report at 0426. TSUSHIMA was then heading to catch up with the convoy, but at 0800 Rear Admiral Sato aboard ETOROFU ordered the TSUSHIMA to suspend her course to rejoin and proceed to the "scene of the disaster to the SHINYO-CVE, and take on board survivors". From this, it seems that SHINYO survivors were not rescued till late morning, and the rescuing ships were TSUSHIMA and CD No.61.

CHIYODA
25 October 1944:
Crippled by four aerial bomb hits that leave ship dead in the water with 13 degree list to starboard. ComCarDiv 4 in HYUGA attempts to tow, but this is prevented by a third attack. The ISUZU is ordered to remove the crew, but this is also frustrated due to continuing danger from air surface attack. After three attempts, ISUZU is forced to retreat with enemy surface forces in sight and CHIYODA under gunfire. Sunk: At 1624 attacked by gunfire of U.S. Navy TG 38.3 (four cruisers, nine destroyers) surface forces, and stubbornly returns fire. At 1655 - hit repeatedly - she rolled onto her port beam ends and sank. No survivors are permitted to be rescued, and apparently Captain Jyo Eiichiro and the entire crew of 1,470 officers and men perish. (Position 18 - 37' N, 126 - 45 E')

SHOKAKU
19 June 1944:
Sunk: At 1122 Torpedoed by USS CAVALLA while landing patrol aircraft. Hit by three, possibly four torpedoes in the starboard side, forward and amidships. Large fuel fires are ignited in the hangar and the ship begins to settle by the bow. Though damage control initially hoped to save her, the flooding forward and the fires intensify in the following hours. At 1408 the fires detonate an aerial bomb on the hangar, setting off volatile gases from a cracked forward tank. Blown apart, the carrier upends and sinks at 1410. Due to this sudden disaster, loss of life is very heavy: fifty-eight officers, 830 petty officers and men, in addition to 376 members of Air Group 601 and eight civilians share the fate of the vessel; a total of 1,272 dead. Light cruiser YAHAGI and destroyers URAKAZE, WAKATSUKI, and HATSUZUKI rescued Captain Matsubara Hiroshi among 570 other survivors.

ZUIKAKU
24 October 1944 Battle off Cape Engano:
Sunk: Hit by seven torpedoes and nine bombs. Abandon ship ordered at 1358 and flag lowered. Slowly rolled over to port and sank bow first at 1414 (Position 19'20 N, 125'15 E). Captain Kaizuka Takeo, forty-eight officers and 794 petty officers and men lost with the carrier. However, forty-seven officers and 815 pettyofficers and men are rescued by WAKATSUKI and KUWA.

AMAGI AND KATSURAGI
28 July 1945:
Again Mitsuko-jima is bombed during heavy air raid on Kure from TF 38. Though AMAGI is again heavily targeted, this time KATSURAGI undergoes her share of concentrated. At first she again escapes damage, even shooting down a plane that attacked AMAGI, but in the afternoon attack the carrier suffered a devastating direct hit by a massive 2,000 pound bomb. (See Note 1). This bomb hurtled into the flight deck from starboard, just behind the island, striking at a point just to port of the centerline and behind the forward elevator. Crashing thru the flight deck, it failed to reach the upper hangar deck, instead detonating after eight feet in the middle of the open space of the enclosed hangar. The confined blast and resultant pressure wave was incredible. A 20-foot section of the port hangar wall was blown out, the whole flight deck between the elevators bulged up and buckled (in similar fashion as on AMAGI, or on RYUHO on 19 March) and at the center of the blast a 10 meter section the width of the flight deck out was blown right out and fling over to starboard to land across the outboard stacks. Both elevators were rendered inoperable jammed in the `up' position at the time, and the upper hangar deck under the detonation point was actually pushed down some three feet. The walls of the upper hangar deck are bulged and perforated. The bridge is sprayed by fragments and Executive Officer Captain Izumi Fukujiro and twelve other men are killed with another twelve wounded. Somewhat surprisingly, no fire broke out, the strength deck had held, and no underwater damage is suffered. KATSURAGI remains seaworthy.

[rtrapasso]

.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

For example, i've often had ships "roll" very favorable when struck by a torpedo (i.e. small amount of SYS and FLT damage) I interpret such a result as the torp having struck in a non critical area, such as a bow hit.

I've read accounts where a torpedo hit a ship right on a substantial beam (I-beam or what not) and suffered much less damage as a result (versus a complete penetration). That's how I tend to think of teh example you cite here.