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JAMiAM
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RE: SS

Post by JAMiAM »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Another friendly reminder to leave current politics at the door...at the outside of the door.

Next thing you'll be demanding that we keep threads on-topic. Honestly.

While that would be nice, I won't obsess over thread drift. After all, I'm as guilty as the next man when it comes to derailing threads. However, Matrix has a very strict policy on political discussions. If they deal with current political events, hypothetical, or real, then then they are prohibited.
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desert
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RE: SS

Post by desert »

The amazing uniformity of measurement systems across a number of sites suggests that the Indus Valley Civilization was a single state. However, it seems that the large cities were controlled by small groups of merchants, landowners and priests. Therefore, no standing armies were involved. The artifacts and texts from contemporaneous Egypt and Mesopotamia clearly depict battles. But the excavations at Harappan sites have not revealed a single artifact that depicts military, battles, prisoners or a human killing another human. Very few bronze weapons have been found. Fortified cities have been excavated which seems to indicate some defensive capability. Excavations do not indicate a well developed martial culture, which may be a reason for the eventual decline of the civilisation.
 
If there is little evidence for war in a civilization, it doesn't mean that they did have war. I personally believe that from 2500 - 1500 B.C, there was generally no warfare in the Indus River Valley, but there is just no evidence for warfare. Invasions would not have been common, as the Deccan Plateau was to the South and the Himalayas to the North. Defensive walls around the major cities don't mean that they actively sought war with other peoples.
 
I'd say that aggression and violence are part human nature, but "war", isn't partially because it's an artificial construct of our design (chimps don't plan preemptive strikes on the other guys). In the end war really is often for power or land, etc, because the point of animal violence is to protect themselves and their territory.
 
And that thing about Neanderthal, there is evidence that Neanderthal actually died out because of the glacial period that began 40,000 years ago, the one that ended at the beginning of the Neolithic. Neanderthal physiology was suited for hunting in forests, but the forests died out when the weather became too cold. The plains that were left behind were good hunting ground for Cro-Magnon with his spearthrowers. Thus most of the species died out in a few thousand years. If anyone competed for food, likely the Neanderthals would have attacked us for it, and they would have gotten thrashed anyway. How did the Austrilopithecines die out?
 
 
From what I've read, nuclear detonation propulsion is the most practical option- and this is illegal because of the test ban treaty.
 
 Thats just the most practical version right now, although there are theories on fusion engines and "laser sails". We need something like an Alcubierre drive and interdimensional warping to get somewhere fast, but we need to straigthen out the physics first.
 
Using the 3+1 formalism of general relativity, the spacetime is described by a foliation of space-like hypersurfaces of constant coordinate time t. The general form of the Alcubierre metric is:

Image
where á is the lapse function that gives the interval of proper time between nearby hypersurfaces, âi is the shift vector that relates the spatial coordinate systems on different hypersurfaces and ãij is a positive definite metric on each of the hypersurfaces. The particular form that Alcubierre studied (1994) is defined by:

Image

Image
ây = âz = 0
ãij = äij
where

Image
Image
and

Image
with R > 0 and ó > 0 arbitrary parameters. With this particular form of the metric, it can be shown that the energy density measured by observers whose 4-velocity is normal to the hypersurfaces is given by

Image
 
 

What does this mean?
 
 
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

I personally believe that from 2500 - 1500 B.C, there was generally no warfare in the Indus River Valley, but there is just no evidence for warfare. Invasions would not have been common, as the Deccan Plateau was to the South and the Himalayas to the North. Defensive walls around the major cities don't mean that they actively sought war with other peoples.

How then, do you explain the fortifications? Defensive walls do mean just that -- that warfare is occurring.

Actually, from what I've read, military technology in most of those 'first wave' civilizations -- Sumer, Old Kingdom Egypt, and the Indus Valley -- was pretty primitive, and you wouldn't necessarily have much in the way of artifacts. Flint-studded clubs 'n stuff. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen -- as our more extensive knowledge of Egypt and Sumer makes clear.

Given the remnants of fortifications, the evidence is that war did occur in the Indus Valley. To believe otherwise is just wishful thinking.

I'd say that aggression and violence are part human nature, but "war", isn't partially because it's an artificial construct of our design (chimps don't plan preemptive strikes on the other guys). In the end war really is often for power or land, etc, because the point of animal violence is to protect themselves and their territory.

Well, now we'll get into what defines 'war.' I'm inclined to label any inter-communal conflict that involves homicidal intent as 'war.' Attempts at more precise definitions will probably run afoul of counterexamples. For instance, the Aztecs attacked neighboring tribes primarily to gain prisoners for massive cannibalistic human sacrifices -- not for land or power per se. We supposedly invaded Iraq to bring them the blessings of 'secular democracy' -- and there certainly was never any real prospect of gaining either land or power from the enterprise.

As to animal violence being to 'protect themselves and their territory,' a remarkably high percentage of human wars involve two participants who both sincerely think they are defending themselves. In fact, coming up with a construct where one is merely 'defending oneself' is practically a sin qua non for waging war in the modern era. Hence the obsession with proving that Saddam Hussein had WMD's. Ultimately, he had to be demonstrated to be a threat for us to feel justified in attacking him -- we had to be 'defending' ourselves somehow. I can't think of any war that has been launched in the last hundred years where both parties hadn't convinced themselves they were 'defending themselves' in some sense or other.


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desert
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RE: SS

Post by desert »

I think a better definition would be organized homicide commited against another nation, state, or party. We shall see.
 
 
PS: Technically, one side would be defending itself, at least some of the time. [>:]
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RE: SS

Post by Ike99 »

Well, now we'll get into what defines 'war.'

What is war?

War is collective killing for a collective purpose.
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: desert



PS: Technically, one side would be defending itself, at least some of the time. [>:]

Yeah. But my point is that both sides generally manage to convince themselves they are 'defending themselves' in some sense of the word. It's an essential to waging war in the modern era -- there has to be a construct where we are 'defending ourselves.'

Look at the wars America has involved itself in the last one hundred years.

Spanish-American War. We were 'attacked' when the 'Spanish sank the Maine.'

World War One. Germany had to send the Zimmerman Telegram and sink a series of American merchantmen in 1917 before we actually declared war.

World War Two. Pearl Harbor. We were doing what we could to get involved -- but we needed the Japanese to help us go that final yard...

Korea. Well, we were attacked.

Viet Nam. Tonkin Gulf Incident. Vietanmese torpedo boats had to 'attack' American destroyers to justify large-scale American intervention.

Iraq. WMD's. That got blown up into the the casus belli. Why? Because it constituted the only one of Saddam Hussein's various outrages that actually posed a threat to us. He could have kept slaughtering Kurds and training police dogs to rip off testicles in perpetuity -- and we never could have moved. We had to construct some kind of threat to ourselves before we went to war.

In the above six cases, in only three were we inarguably attacked, and in only one was the attack substantial. This leaves aside the merits of waging the various wars -- the point is that we invariably had to construct a more or less specious vision of the situation as of ourselves being under 'attack.' Almost invariably, all nations constructed similar or worse rationales to explain how they were 'attacked' before going to war. It's practically a requirement: see the 'attack' the Germans staged on their own radio station at Gleiwitz and the similar farce the Italians staged before invading Greece.
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Ike99
Well, now we'll get into what defines 'war.'

What is war?

War is collective killing for a collective purpose.

No -- the Holocaust was not war. Tamerlane's massacre of 250,000 prisoners at Delhi was not war.
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: desert

I think a better definition would be organized homicide commited against another nation, state, or party. We shall see.

Maybe -- but see Iraq. Personally, I tend to see that as not constituting 'war' -- but it certainly gets called a 'war' a lot.

In any case, I think both sides have to be committing violence for it to be 'war.' This would be why Auschwitz wouldn't be considered a battlefield.

Iraq fills this definition -- but who in particular are we fighting? Can't be the Iraqi people -- supposedly we're there on their behalf.
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: desert

In the paleolithic era, no evidence for warfare or organized conflict has been found.

It's widely held that Homo Sapiens wiped out Homo Neandarthalensis in this period. How do you propose we achieved this without "warfare or organised conflict"? Certainly we can't have done it without having several people working together with a violent goal- neandarthals were a lot stronger than we are.


But were Neanderthals human -- or more to the point, did Homo Sapiens perceive them as human? If I organize a gorilla hunt, am I waging war?

Of course, this gets into interesting territory, as one of the requirements to wage war is to dehumanize one's opponents. I see this all the time on Israeli discussion boards. There's an overwhelming need to deny humanity to the Palestinians at all times, and in all ways. It seems to be essential.

Primitive tribes may genuinely regard their neighbors as not human -- and certainly the Mongols had their moral principles. They just thought of slaughtering non-Mongols as good, clean fun. Similar to hunting.
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RE: SS

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: desert

And that thing about Neanderthal, there is evidence that Neanderthal actually died out because of the glacial period that began 40,000 years ago, the one that ended at the beginning of the Neolithic.

This doesn't make much sense. Neandarthals were actually bigger than us, which makes them better suited to cold climates. Contraversially, it's believed they were also more intelligent- which would make them more adaptable. We, however, worked in groups.
Neanderthal physiology was suited for hunting in forests, but the forests died out when the weather became too cold.

Well, no. Europe wasn't just covered in one gigantic ice sheet. There were glaciers in southern England, but not in southern Spain. So why did Neandarthals die out in heavily forested southern and central Europe? Because Homo Sapiens exterminated them. There's certainly a good few Neandarthal bodies which have obviously been killed by stone weapons.

Moreover, cold as opposed to freezing climates are actually rather favourable for forests rather than plains.
How did the Austrilopithecines die out?

Our knowledge of the subspecies is so limited that we can't really tell.
 Thats just the most practical version right now,

Well you and I are going to be dead in 70 years. So right now is what concerns me. Your methods might be all very well, but they're as theoretical now as the atom bomb was 100 years ago. I don't see them being applied in my lifetime.
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RE: SS

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

No -- the Holocaust was not war. Tamerlane's massacre of 250,000 prisoners at Delhi was not war.

Yeah. War implies a mutuality.
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RE: SS

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit




..really[X(][X(]

..is that the US as a whole or just the bits that didn't vote for him...twice...

And then there are those of us who voted for him four times (twice for gov and twice for pres).

Now if only Jeb would run.

Hmm. Well, personal differences notwithstanding, when I become president I may appoint you my goodwill ambassador to the world's liberal community. I'd say you may have potential.

Surely wargaming will be compulsory in such an administration - which would rapidly eliminate liberals via its enhancing effect on neural connections.
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RE: SS

Post by a white rabbit »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay




And then there are those of us who voted for him four times (twice for gov and twice for pres).

Now if only Jeb would run.

Hmm. Well, personal differences notwithstanding, when I become president I may appoint you my goodwill ambassador to the world's liberal community. I'd say you may have potential.

Surely wargaming will be compulsory in such an administration - which would rapidly eliminate liberals via its enhancing effect on neural connections.

...or just make them better able to usefully run a country..

..but then as a fox-huntin' with dogs, frankly an anything huntin' with dogs, who detests fishin' and guns, i would say that..

..legalise hare-coursing, s'great fun...
..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: desert

And that thing about Neanderthal, there is evidence that Neanderthal actually died out because of the glacial period that began 40,000 years ago, the one that ended at the beginning of the Neolithic.

This doesn't make much sense. Neandarthals were actually bigger than us, which makes them better suited to cold climates. Contraversially, it's believed they were also more intelligent- which would make them more adaptable. We, however, worked in groups.

I doubt they were more intelligent. They had bigger brains -- but apparently a smaller frontal lobe.

I was reminded of the phenomenon of Neaderthal's brain size when I was reading something about dolphins. Apparently, although dolphins have big brains, that may not mean they are especially intelligent: there's no correspondingly large number of some sort of connector, apparently. The large size appears to be an adaptation to permit the brain to maintain the proper operating temperature even though the case is immersed in what can be very cold water. This isn't to say dolphins are stupid -- but notions that they are as smart as us appear to be groundless.

Now, in most respects Neanderthal was simply a species of Homo Erectus -- but physically bigger, and with a larger brain size. Among animals, larger size often is an adaptation ot a colder climate -- the total mass/surface area ratio falls the bigger the animal gets. A Siberian wolf might weight 150 lbs -- an Arabian wolf perhaps 40 lbs.

So we can readily see how Neanderthal's unusual size could simply have been an adaption to cold. Particularly in view of the absence of any other indications that he was especially bright, could the large brain size have simply been such an adaption as well? There is little evidence other than that big brain pan that he was somehow mentally superior to the general run of Homo Erectus types. My impression is that he didn't make art, it's debatable if he could talk, none of his weapons are technologically remarkable, etc.

So it might have been relatively easy for us to whack Neanderthals. Like getting the village idiot to stand in a tub and try to pull it up.
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

No -- the Holocaust was not war. Tamerlane's massacre of 250,000 prisoners at Delhi was not war.

Yeah. War implies a mutuality.

Yeah -- but what level of mutuality?

Wounded Knee is generally accounted a massacre -- even though the Indians actually managed to inflict about one casualty for every five received. That probably compares favorably to the Japanese performance on Saipan -- which is generally accounted a battle. It would be considered wildly tenditious to condemn Desert Storm as a massacre -- and yet what was the casualty ratio there?

Presumably, some desperate Chinese householder somewhere in Nanking managed to kill a Japanese soldier engaged in raping his daughter. Does that make the Rape of Nanking a 'battle'?
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay




And then there are those of us who voted for him four times (twice for gov and twice for pres).

Now if only Jeb would run.

Hmm. Well, personal differences notwithstanding, when I become president I may appoint you my goodwill ambassador to the world's liberal community. I'd say you may have potential.

Surely wargaming will be compulsory in such an administration - which would rapidly eliminate liberals via its enhancing effect on neural connections.

I take it you don't find our actions in Iraq evidence that brainlessness is equally distributed across the political spectrum.
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

...or just make them better able to usefully run a country..

..but then as a fox-huntin' with dogs, frankly an anything huntin' with dogs, who detests fishin' and guns, i would say that..

..legalise hare-coursing, s'great fun...

Unusually incoherent even by your standards.
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RE: SS

Post by desert »

Well you and I are going to be dead in 70 years. So right now is what concerns me. Your methods might be all very well, but they're as theoretical now as the atom bomb was 100 years ago. I don't see them being applied in my lifetime.

Two words - stem-cell research.
Maybe -- but see Iraq. Personally, I tend to see that as not constituting 'war' -- but it certainly gets called a 'war' a lot.

Would you rather we call it conflict? [:D]

PS: Homo erectus??? The ones that died out half a million years ago? [&:]
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RE: SS

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: desert

Would you rather we call it conflict? [:D]

'Fiasco' comes to mind. 'Farce' would also seem to be applicable. 'Waste' is another relevant word.

Then there are the phrases. 'Exercise in futility.' 'Mind-numbing stupidity.' 'Criminal arrogance and ignorance.'

Maybe when Bush goes to that Great Ranch in the Sky, we could build him something like the Lincoln Memorial. Only it has to be something unpleasant, depressing, and pointless. Made out of solid gold.
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RE: SS

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
I take it you don't find our actions in Iraq evidence that brainlessness is equally distributed across the political spectrum.

I can't come up with a case of it ever being done better. Of course, it's hard to come up with relatively equivalent circumstances, but try comparing to Yugoslavia 41-45.

For that matter, try comparing to Poland 39 or France 40. Both cases so exalted they coined the term "Blitzkrieg" and losses were considered miraculously light. Now check the German dead totals. And that's without factoring in the resistance that followed.

The Iraq War is being held to an absurd standard.
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