The Shipwreck of Our Hopes: Japanese Side

[Cribtop]

The flag is up!

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I expanded by 68 x 3 = 191 points/day

To clarify,
I'm sure you meant this additional 63 Naval points = 191 HI pts/day. The multiplier is on the expense, not the production.

That brings it up to 1508 + 63 = 1571 /day ... I hope you think about the trade-off's before adding too much more.

[John 3rd]

Shipyard Expansion Proposal
Shipwreck 2x2

As a Japanese player I am well aware of the competing needs of the Japanese Industry. Whenever possible I try to expand facilities outside of Japan to help alleviate the strain of expansion and competing needs. Naval Shipyards and Repair Yards are prime examples of this.

Merchant Yards
There are a decent number of Merchant Yards that can be converted and expanded into Naval Yards:

Pusan 10
Port Arthur 6
Shanghai 30

For no cost to the Home Islands we could convert these Yards into Naval Yards and expand them so they looked something like this:

Pusan 20 or 40
Port Arthur 24 or 48
Shanghai 60 or 120

It would be expensive but NOT within the Home Islands. We could gain somewhere between 104-208 additional Shipyard points. These points, added to the expansion Michael has started in the Home Islands, would go a long way to solving our shortage.

Repair Yards
While we only have three possibilities in Naval Yards, there exist a host of Repair Yards we can capture and/or expand. I’ll list the Location, Yard Size, and then recommended Yard Expansion:

Pusan 15---30 or 60
Port Arthur 25---50
Shanghai 50---100
Hong Kong 51-102
Takao 6---24
Saigon 20---40 or 80

Something that drives me nuts is not having enough Capital Ships as Japan and then having to WAIT if there isn’t room for repairing a warship when needed. If we expand these Yards as well as Singapore, Manila, Soerabaja, and Perth, we can spread our damaged warships and merchants thus clearing the major Yards in Japan for truly important repairs.

What do you think?

[John 3rd]

General Benoit is in charge of China and I gladly say "I HATE CHINA!" 
 
Looking around the map, while being totally freaked at the VAST amount of Chinese units present on it, I noticed that Wenchow has good Manpower, Resources, HI, and LI.  Is this a place to grab fairly early in attempting to clear the coast?  Seems like Pakhoi and Kwangchawan also fit that description.
 
Does it do any good to take these locations?
 
I know the good General is planning a massed drive in the North of China so this is quite probably a distraction but it is something I noticed.
 

[Q-Ball]

Before you convert alot of Merchant Shipyards to Naval, do an analysis in tracker. I think you'll find that the early surplus disappears quickly and later turns into a deficit if you don't halt any builds. In WITP that wasn't a problem as you could turn off all merchant construction turn 1 and NEVER have a problem, but there is less of a margin in AE (though there is still one). I think you can afford SOME conversion, but don't go overboard. Just know that you won't be able to build all the merchant ships in queue.

I wouldn't expand shipyards a whole lot, not because of the supply expenditure, but because they consume ALOT of HI, and you need to be building a surplus each turn throughout 1942 to account for pilot training, and to build more engines and planes.

FYI, my experience in production...if there is one thing you are short in turn 1, it's ENGINES, particularly Ha-35s, but also the 32s and 33s. Take a real close look at expanding those!

I'm not the expert, but that's my 2 Yen anyway.

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Shipyard Expansion Proposal
Shipwreck 2x2

As a Japanese player I am well aware of the competing needs of the Japanese Industry. Whenever possible I try to expand facilities outside of Japan to help alleviate the strain of expansion and competing needs. Naval Shipyards and Repair Yards are prime examples of this.

Merchant Yards
There are a decent number of Merchant Yards that can be converted and expanded into Naval Yards:

Pusan 10
Port Arthur 6
Shanghai 30

For no cost to the Home Islands we could convert these Yards into Naval Yards and expand them so they looked something like this:

Pusan 20 or 40
Port Arthur 24 or 48
Shanghai 60 or 120

It would be expensive but NOT within the Home Islands. We could gain somewhere between 104-208 additional Shipyard points. These points, added to the expansion Michael has started in the Home Islands, would go a long way to solving our shortage.

Playing Damian the stop sign again ... [;)]Never ever ever convert ! They revert back to fully unrepaired (if the dev's changed this to 1/2 loss maybe I'd rethink it), and you're in a worse position... please don't. If you want to expand Naval, do it at the facilities you have. And as I said before and QBall has reiterated ... building these things might bring you a cropper "so assess the situation and maybe realise that all these toys are just not worth the price of admission. " ... supplies and HI.

Repair Yards
While we only have three possibilities in Naval Yards, there exist a host of Repair Yards we can capture and/or expand. I’ll list the Location, Yard Size, and then recommended Yard Expansion:

Pusan 15---30 or 60
Port Arthur 25---50
Shanghai 50---100
Hong Kong 51-102
Takao 6---24
Saigon 20---40 or 80

Something that drives me nuts is not having enough Capital Ships as Japan and then having to WAIT if there isn’t room for repairing a warship when needed. If we expand these Yards as well as Singapore, Manila, Soerabaja, and Perth, we can spread our damaged warships and merchants thus clearing the major Yards in Japan for truly important repairs.

What do you think?

I think you've outlined too much expansion, too many supplies gone ... I'd just be looking at a few of those ...

Remember that to utilise repair yards, they must have a capacity more than the ship tonnage. So a size 24 repair yard will only accomodate one 24,000 ton vessel. Of course you can stack them as long as each is below this tonnage. The other thing to remember is the points aren't accumulated & larger Repair Yards provide more points (x10).Still repairs are also more streamlined in AE than witp, so less time waiting ...

I'd be more of less inclined to build the small ones in Japan (the size 5 & 10's - as they are not useless, but can only effectively repair one ship at a time), as well 1 or maybe 2 of your choices.

Or come up with a scheme as to where you will repair each tonnage ship... and build accordingly... or do other forum members go for the big build thesis, that it's better to have a couple of huge yards ?

Not sure myself on this one, how is Michael finding the repairs in his current alt-game ?...

[John 3rd]

I am attempting to hold back my shame and tears.  The Economics Minister has spoken and shall be taken seriously by this member of the Ruling Imperial Council.  OK.  So that idea bombed--pardon the pun.  This is why I chose to start with the 2x2 and not a 1x1.  With AE I am so FAAARRR behind the learning curve with the economy it is scary.
 
With one idea destroyed, how about the China thoughts?
  

[Q-Ball]

John;

You are CORRECT, however, on China. Wenchow should be an early grab for a number of reasons. The Roads around there aren't great, but other than that, it's all in your favor. It should probably be your first priority.

It's a good idea to clear ALL ports on the China coast, if for no other reason then they can't land sub-transported fragments from the Phillipines there (and then air transport them to India for reconstruction).

[FatR]

Note, that on the opening turn Chinese forces are positioned to take Foochow. Unless your opponents miss this fact, you need to reinforce the city by sea, any reserves moving overland will be too late. Overall, immediate move to Southern China makes sense, because it is all hard terrain and relatively easy to defend, once reinforced. Central Plains probably can be saved for later.

[John 3rd]

Michael is working tonight.  Just talked to him on the phone. 

The Allies are asking for a one month truce in China.  He is inclined to agree so he can reposition his troops before a massed attack.  I think the truce should also include a rule regarding what is mentioned above about moving units out of the Philippines that way.  If that isn't included then Michael had better go over to the attack so we aren't hurt by it later on.

Also found out that the Allies probably won't get their Dec 8th turn to us until late-tomorrow.

[John 3rd]

Just sent this to the guys:
 
[font=calibri]I'm cool about a truce, however, our AAR got chimed in that if we agree to a truce then units shouldn't be evacuated through China from the DEI.  If this is good then why not?  It will provide time for the players to move troops and establish priorities.  Instead of a 30 day warning, I would recommend simply agreeing to a truce OF 30 Days.  That should give time for China to be less intimidating.[/font][/align][font=calibri][/font] [/align][font=calibri]Should air combat still be allowed?[/font][/align][font=calibri][/font] [/align][font=calibri]I HATE CHINA![/font][/align][font=calibri][/font] [/align][font=calibri]John[/font][/align][font=calibri][/font] [/align][font=calibri]PS  Michael is working tomorrow and I will be home after 3pm so I'll handle the turn when it arrives.  How is that Turn ONE Allied headache going?[/font][/align][font=calibri][/font] [/align][font=calibri]PPS  I would love to--at some point--see a screenshot of what we did at Pearl!  That was a nasty looking attack.  Didn't like that lone Daitai of Kates attacking in the afternoon but they really delivered with 11 Torp hits.  Cannot believe it was ALL TT!  Funny how Manila was then all 800 Kg bombs...rather strange.[/font][/align][font=calibri]  [/font][/align]

[JuanG]

I tend to favour building up 2 or 3 locations outside of the HI for naval yards - these are normally Manila, Hong Kong and Takao. Saigon is a poor choice to expand beyond 20 or so because the larger ships cannot get to Saigon, so it only needs to handle a CA and a few DDs at worst. Singapore when you get it is worth expanding enough to fit your largest ships (Yamato's) but that should only be a few points. The advantage of larger yards in my opinion is if you have them and only need something smaller, you can use the extra capacity to "rush" repairs on ships smaller than the yards capacity.

Regarding shipbuilding, really the amount of expansion you need depends on what you want out of that shipbuilding que. Personally I agree that ~100 to 150 points (~300-450 HI) is about all you can afford unless you look into increasing HI (possibly at the expense of turning off some LI). There is more oil on the map than in stock, mainly due to the increased production in the HI, Manchuria and other Japanese regions, so theoretically you could sustain a more HI focused industry, and it would run more efficiently (supplies/resources wise) than the current one. The problem is that industrial expansion is a huge drain on supplies, and youll need those elsewhere.

[bklooste]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Before you convert alot of Merchant Shipyards to Naval, do an analysis in tracker. I think you'll find that the early surplus disappears quickly and later turns into a deficit if you don't halt any builds. In WITP that wasn't a problem as you could turn off all merchant construction turn 1 and NEVER have a problem, but there is less of a margin in AE (though there is still one). I think you can afford SOME conversion, but don't go overboard. Just know that you won't be able to build all the merchant ships in queue.

I wouldn't expand shipyards a whole lot, not because of the supply expenditure, but because they consume ALOT of HI, and you need to be building a surplus each turn throughout 1942 to account for pilot training, and to build more engines and planes.

FYI, my experience in production...if there is one thing you are short in turn 1, it's ENGINES, particularly Ha-35s, but also the 32s and 33s. Take a real close look at expanding those!

I'm not the expert, but that's my 2 Yen anyway.

Note the 43 and 44 ramp up by Japan thats a lot of Merchant yards and in AE it matters.

One other point halting a ship that is more than 365 days away has no impact.

Merchant Ship Production (in tons) Year
United States==========Japan
1939----------376,419------320,466
1940----------528,697------293,612
1941--------1,031,974------210,373
1942--------5,479,766------260,059
1943-------11,448,360------769,085
1944--------9,288,156----1,699,203
1945--------5,839,858------599,563
Total------33,993,230----4,152,361

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: bklooste

One other point halting a ship that is more than 365 days away has no impact.

Sorry that is just incorrect ...

[bklooste]

"ships only start using naval points when they are a year or less from completion. Beyond that, the points are free. The WITP AE team has given Japan enough naval points to build what they did historically. If you stop Shinano, you will have extra build points, but not until she would have started using them, which is 365 days from completion" Bradley7735

ORIGINAL: n01487477

ORIGINAL: bklooste

One other point halting a ship that is more than 365 days away has no impact.

Sorry that is just incorrect ...

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: bklooste
"ships only start using naval points when they are a year or less from completion. Beyond that, the points are free. The WITP AE team has given Japan enough naval points to build what they did historically. If you stop Shinano, you will have extra build points, but not until she would have started using them, which is 365 days from completion" Bradley7735

Sorry,bklooste - this is not right ... I've just done a test, which I knew would confirm what I thought. Is Bradley7735 even part of the Dev team anyway?
Furthermore, It just doesn't make sense anyway, cause that means any vessel of durability {edit}+37, will not be part of the points system when it starts building ... check it for yourself...

You want me to post my results or will you take my word and Tracker reputation [;)]?

[quote13.4.1 JAPANESE SHIP PRODUCTION
All ships remove 1 day of delay when the delay is greater than:
»» 10 * Ship Durability
This automatic delay removal does not cost Naval or Merchant shipyard points. Those ships set
for normal construction with a delay less than 10 * Ship Durability require Naval or Merchant
shipyard points equal to their durability to remove 1 delay (each day). If set to accelerated
production, the ship will remove 2 days of delay (each day) for a cost equal to 3 times its
durability. A ship that has a delay over 10 * Ship Durability and less than 30 * Ship Durability
may be accelerated. It will remove 1 additional delay (other than the free 1 delay removal) each
day for a cost of appropriate shipyard points equal to the ship’s durability.quote]

[edit 2] -Also for any others wanting to understand have a look at my tutorial on the subject http://sites.google.com/site/n01487477/ ... edirects=0 (IE users need to download first)

[edit 3] - John and Michael, if you haven't read this ... do so. I've looked at it and it's pretty good for air coordination tm.asp?m=2382494

[JuanG]

I have no idea where the the 'less than one year' myth started, but that is all it is.

Damian is right, and that little snippet he posted is exactly how it works. I've also tested this, and it was the same way back in WITP too if I remember right.

I -wish- we didnt have to spend naval points on things over a year away...

[bklooste]

Should have tested that bumb steer.. Time to shut off some ships.

[John 3rd]

Juan and Damian--Thanks for the clarification.  I've been around long enough to have heard this same 365 Day comment several times back in WitP.  No disrespect for anyone.  The whole point of these AAR is to LEARN through discussion, questions, and commentary.  Am always happy to see this happen.  Look at what happened yesterday with my shipyard conversion/expansion thoughts?!
 
STILL WAITING on Allied Turn Two.  Ken is done and the other good Commander is TRYING to get done!
 

[n01487477]

Yeah, I should apologise to bklooste for being a bit in his face with my semi-harsh rebuff. John knows me well enough to realise that I usually explain things fairly well and am mostly very accepting of others opinions...

Prior to Juan's post, I was looking to be a little conservative with the economy. But having done a bit of an econ survey and sent some info to Michael about the potential, he gave me the green light to "light the fires and kick the tires" of this economy, with a planning proposal. Of course this depends heavily on what happens in the next month of fighting. So we're going to see if we can stoke the fires in '42 and bring her up to warp 4, starting by '43 ... (Warp 5, might push it too much for a game I'm not involved in ... )

Brief will be sent to C&C's sometime after I get back to korea tomorrow and sometime later to the forum.
 
So I look forward to the challenges ahead & hope the gallery will ask question as much as they like ... I just hope I'm up to answering it all ...