Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J)

[BBfanboy]

I seem to recall saying something about his CVs hunting reinforcements .... one of the few times I guessed right!

River crossing in combat mode in Burma - likely 4 to 5 miles per day, less if the stack has been bombed a lot and has low morale.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I seem to recall saying something about his CVs hunting reinforcements .... one of the few times I guessed right!

River crossing in combat mode in Burma - likely 4 to 5 miles per day, less if the stack has been bombed a lot and has low morale.

Yep you certainly hit the nail on the head with your guess. I should have listened to you! Next time I insist that you insist you are right! [:D]

[KenchiSulla]

How did he manage to get so good returns on your strike(s)? Experience, range, aircraft type, fragmentation?

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

How did he manage to get so good returns on your strike(s)? Experience, range, aircraft type, fragmentation?

Do you mean my strikes on his CVs?

[KenchiSulla]

Yeah, sorry, that wasn't clear at all....

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Yeah, sorry, that wasn't clear at all....

NP! [:)]

Well, we are using the BETA so fragmentation are horrible. So that counts for a lot. Range was 8.

Most of my TB and DBs were between 50 and 60 EXP and at least 70 in relevant skill. Escorts were minimum 60 EXP and minimum 70 in air/def.

Here is an example of an strike:

Morning Air attack on TF, near Gorontalo at 72,95

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 15
A6M5b Zero x 30
A6M5c Zero x 10

Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 27
TBM-1C Avenger x 36

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed
TBM-1C Avenger: 22 destroyed, 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Unryu
CV Amagi

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x TBM-1C Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo

This is a typical strike. Never seen such horrible results throughout the day. [:(] Had the roles been reversed my CAP would have chewed up most of his escort and most if not all TBs would have gotten through.

EDIT: What I mean about horrible is that his CAP skipped my escorts and went straight for the bombers. Never seen that happen before. It did so on all escorted strikes.

[jonreb31]

Ouch, while that must have been a painful replay to watch at the same time you don't see this sort of thing in any other game. Your opponent made a daring gamble and it defied all odds and he didn't have to pay the price we would have expected.

While things might have been different if you had fully prepared for this possibility that really is a weak CAP on his part-- it's a bit surprising at least a few crippled CVs isn't part of the results. That's not something he can afford, especially if he wants to offer at least one more major naval battle to halt your advance.

It's not a pretty sight and the newspapers won't like it but this shouldn't slow you down too much. You're definitely in a position to take advantage of the situation.

[KenchiSulla]

Did he have his CAP layered? There must be a reason that your escorts didn't manage to get in between the CAP and the bombers..

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: JonReb

Ouch, while that must have been a painful replay to watch at the same time you don't see this sort of thing in any other game. Your opponent made a daring gamble and it defied all odds and he didn't have to pay the price we would have expected.

While things might have been different if you had fully prepared for this possibility that really is a weak CAP on his part-- it's a bit surprising at least a few crippled CVs isn't part of the results. That's not something he can afford, especially if he wants to offer at least one more major naval battle to halt your advance.

It's not a pretty sight and the newspapers won't like it but this shouldn't slow you down too much. You're definitely in a position to take advantage of the situation.

It was pretty hurtful to watch yes! Mostly for my pride. [:D]

I was also very surprised to find the extremely weak CAP. Its almost like he intentionally put everything escort heavy. Either he must have been dead sure of my CVs location or he took a huge chance. It will be very interesting to see what he does next turn. I´m guessing he will move back. But I planned for him staying as best as I could. I pretty much shot my LBA strike capacity.

It was a good lesson and I will spend the next turn changing a lot of things!

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Did he have his CAP layered? There must be a reason that your escorts didn't manage to get in between the CAP and the bombers..

Here is the complete CR. This one is even more odd considering the number of escorts. Again his planes went almost straight for the bombers. I have no idea how he does this! [&:]

I want to be able to come even close to this. Despite having a 200-300 plane CAP up I very, very seldom get to his bombers if they are properly escorted.

Morning Air attack on TF, near Gorontalo at 72,95

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 20
A6M5b Zero x 58
A6M5c Zero x 18

Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 175
SB2C-1C Helldiver x 27

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed
A6M5b Zero: 2 destroyed
A6M5c Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 5 destroyed
SB2C-1C Helldiver: 17 destroyed

CAP engaged:
Soryu-1 with A6M5b Zero (3 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes
Hiryu-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 11000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
Hiyo-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes
Taiho-1 with A6M5b Zero (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
Unryu-1 with A6M5b Zero (3 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
Amagi-1 with A6M5b Zero (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
Katsuragi-1 with A6M5b Zero (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes
Kasagi-1 with A6M5c Zero (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
Aso-1 with A6M5b Zero (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
Ikoma-1 with A6M5c Zero (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes

Morning Air attack on TF, near Gorontalo at 72,95

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 15
A6M5b Zero x 30
A6M5c Zero x 10

Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 27
TBM-1C Avenger x 36

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed
TBM-1C Avenger: 22 destroyed, 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Unryu
CV Amagi

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x TBM-1C Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
Soryu-1 with A6M5b Zero (1 airborne, 3 on standby, 1 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
Hiryu-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 6 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
9 planes vectored on to bombers
Hiyo-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 3 on standby, 1 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers
Taiho-1 with A6M5b Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 4 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
5 planes vectored on to bombers
Unryu-1 with A6M5b Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 2 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
Amagi-1 with A6M5b Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 5 scrambling)
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
5 planes vectored on to bombers
Katsuragi-1 with A6M5b Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 1 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
1 planes vectored on to bombers
Kasagi-1 with A6M5c Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers
Aso-1 with A6M5b Zero (0 airborne, 3 on standby, 1 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
5 planes vectored on to bombers
Ikoma-1 with A6M5c Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 4 scrambling)
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers

Looks like he had everything at 10k besides one group on 9k.

These are the only two strikes that got escorted out of 8 strikes. I have seen this a lot in the BETA. The escorts coordinate in one big chuck that very randomly attaches to any given fragment. Can be a big one or a 1 plane one.

I like the new strike routines in the BETA but I think the way escorts works needs some tweaking. But with the hostility on this forum by certain members I have given up on suggesting things. Or even trying to discuss things. Its a shame as this forum wasn´t always so.

[JocMeister]

Operation Payback?

In the DEI area Erik has been hovering a big BB TF together with a CA TF within strike range of Babar. With the added AirHQ I got in at Babar last turn I hope to get some shots in. Perhaps I can exact a slight revenge for the Celebes Sea humiliation.

The TFs has been hovering there for 2 turns in a row now. Fingers crossed. Havn´t gotten the turn back so don´t know if it worked or not.

[KenchiSulla]

Looks like the advanced warning and superior Climbing ability of the A6Ms put them above your raid enabling them to ignore your fighters... Probably crack pilots too..

My experience with the allies is limited but while playing Japan my escorts usually took terrible losses protecting the bombers.. but they did protect them.. I used special squadrons with 50 experience, 70 airskill pilots for that.

You could try going in at 2000 meters with your torpedo bombers. That might lower the advanced warning time and it doesn't change anything for the disadvantage your escorts fight at.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Looks like the advanced warning and superior Climbing ability of the A6Ms put them above your raid enabling them to ignore your fighters... Probably crack pilots too..

My experience with the allies is limited but while playing Japan my escorts usually took terrible losses protecting the bombers.. but they did protect them.. I used special squadrons with 50 experience, 70 airskill pilots for that.

You could try going in at 2000 meters with your torpedo bombers. That might lower the advanced warning time and it doesn't change anything for the disadvantage your escorts fight at.

Thank you! That might be it. [:)] Just a bit baffled as I have never seen this before. I have the same setup of "freshly trained" escort pilots while the ones on CAP are the really good ones.

While going to 1000-2000 meters work I don´t feel very comfortable doing so. It works too well imo as detection times goes so low an intercept becomes almost impossible.

[JocMeister]

Panzer Corps

A bit off topic here. With my game vs Erik grinding to an almost complete stop lately after doing 3-4 turn per day I now find myself with a pretty big chunk of spare time to fill out. I´ve been looking for a singel player "beer and pretzels" kind of game. The one you can fire up for 30 minutes and then walk away from. My eyes fell on Panzer Corps Allied assault. Its pretty cheap (20ish Euro). Anyone of you guys tried it or have any other suggestion for a game?

Still no turn from Erik. Getting pretty annoyed as he has been online all morning and I asked him to upload the replay as soon as it was ready. Even more so as Ida now has been sleeping for 2 hours in which time I could both have watched the replay AND updated the AAR. Now instead I will have to rush it whenever the opportunity arises during the day. I asked the same thing yesterday but received the replay 14 ([8|]) hours after it was generated. Bah.

[ny59giants]

Mr Jocke,

Looking at his CAP settings, I wonder if you will need to place some of your Hellcats below your DB & TB. My understanding is it is best to get a single massive strike by placing all (F, DB, TB) at the same altitude. I think 12,000 is a good height for them. Then, maybe some of those fighters (1/4 to 1/3) down to 9,000 or 10,000 to engage the fighters as they climb up to get your bombers.

FB with torpedoes - Any luck with these planes in reaching out further than the Avengers and maybe even the Beauforts to get at his large warships?? Set them at 2k with a few groups of B-25 attack bombers at 1k along with some fighters at maybe 3k. Just an idea.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Mr Jocke,

Looking at his CAP settings, I wonder if you will need to place some of your Hellcats below your DB & TB. My understanding is it is best to get a single massive strike by placing all (F, DB, TB) at the same altitude. I think 12,000 is a good height for them. Then, maybe some of those fighters (1/4 to 1/3) down to 9,000 or 10,000 to engage the fighters as they climb up to get your bombers.

FB with torpedoes - Any luck with these planes in reaching out further than the Avengers and maybe even the Beauforts to get at his large warships?? Set them at 2k with a few groups of B-25 attack bombers at 1k along with some fighters at maybe 3k. Just an idea.

That might be worth a try. I´m not sure the model works that way though? Can´t get any worse though!

[JocMeister]

I asked Erik again midday yesterday for the replay to which he replied 8 hours later that he hadn´t had time to run it yet. Funny because the timestamp says it was last modified earlier that morning...

My little OP didn´t work out very well. The Beauforts took off in 3 fragments but for some reason only 3 Hellcats took of for escort while 45 stayed at base. Love this game sometimes. [8|]

Of the attack bombers from Darwin only the 15 Navy Mitchells took off while 70 bombers decided they didn´t want to. [8|] Ah well, at least we got a torp in the Nagato.

KB withdrew slightly to the west towards Balikpapan but still within strike range. If he moves into the Celebes Sea next turn we will probably have another CV battle. If he stays in position it will be another 2 days before I can strike. With some creative tinkering we now have 1464 CV planes. [&o]

Proper update with screens tonight hopefully!

[JocMeister]

Sorry for the lack of updates. Maria has started working this week so I have full responsibility for Ida. And with the usual perfect timing of things (screw you Murphy! [:D]) Ida came down with a bad fever sunday night. Seem to have given in now though.

Only one turn done in the meantime so I´m not lagging too badly. I´ll try to get an update up tonight. Not much action. But it will be next turn!

[JocMeister]

11th-12th September -44

Operation Payback
This backfired a bit. The sweeps didn´t suck in his LRCAP and only 3 Hellcats of roughly 50 took off from the base. I have no idea why. The lack of feedback on such instances are really annoying.

We did manage to get a torp in the Nagato though:

Morning Air attack on TF, near Wetar at 71,113

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 72 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 22
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 9
Ki-84a Frank x 28

Allied aircraft
Beaufort VIII x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84a Frank: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Beaufort VIII: 5 destroyed, 3 damaged
Beaufort VIII: 1 destroyed by flak

Japanese Ships
BB Kirishima
BB Nagato, Torpedo hits 1

With some escorts we might have caused some damage here. The loss of almost 50 Beauforts for a TT in a BB is not worth the price. 26 pilots lost. [:(]

Celebes sea
Looks like Erik withdrew the KB towards Balikpapan. I lost track of his CVs. His incursion here cost me 3 days. Its clear that with the BETA its almost impossible for LBA to take on CVs due to the fragmentation. The strikes simply get chewed up by the CAP. So I decided to not try again using TB/DB but instead 2Es. They will stand a lot better chance against the CAP even when coming in small packages. I did some fiddling and formed a "anti KB" force of 200 Attack bombers. This had the added bonus of freeing up 200 extremely well trained bomber pilots. I will also use this force to clear out any enemy shipping within reach from Cotabato.

Manado will likely fall tomorrow. I landed the support troops of 40th ID 3 days ago triggering an auto bombardment. Erik has since then failed to turn them off. Thank you! [:)]

This is the latest Jap bombardment.

Ground combat at Manado (75,99)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 10431 troops, 101 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 441

Defending force 38520 troops, 684 guns, 1090 vehicles, Assault Value = 1331

Japanese ground losses:
312 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 23 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Assaulting units:
2nd Ind.Infantry Brigade
80th Infantry Brigade
78th Infantry Brigade
109th Division
37th Ind. Engineer Regiment
Gohoku JNAF Base Force
103rd AA Regiment
51st Base Force

Defending units:
2nd USMC Amphb Tank Battalion
40th Infantry Division
632nd Tank Destroyer Battalion
93rd Infantry Division
706th Tank Battalion
711th Tank Battalion
1st Marine Division
II Aus Corps Engineer Battalion
148th Field Artillery Battalion
163rd USA Base Force
156th USA Base Force
2nd Medium Regiment

My troops have recovered somewhat from the last attack so I ordered a deliberate attack tomorrow. Even if successful especially the 93rd ID and 1st USMC will be out of combat for a long time. Tanks should be good to go though.

Burma
Jap forces are in full flight. They abandoned Rangoon and I should secure it next turn. The race is on to see if I can inflict some damages on his troops before they cross the river SE of Pegu. My leading elements entered Pegu this turn and the rest will join tomorrow.

Question
Should I risk an attack at Pegu in two days with 8000 AV taking on the forts. Or is it better to wait for my other stack to catch up with its 5500 AV and risk a shock attack over a river into the wooden hex SE of Pegu? I´m leaning towards risking it at Pegu. Eriks AV is estimated to be around 5000 Thoughts?

Allies resume the offensive
I´m now set up to continue the push. Getting Cotabato to level 9 was the key to support invasions via LBA in the PI archipelago. I have a string of targets set up and will start pushing again with the first of many invasions in 2 days. Tomorrow will hopefully be a very busy day with what I hope will be a nasty blow to the empire. Stay tuned for a surprise tomorrow...

Erik will spot one of my invasion fleets tomorrow heading for Yap. I had hoped to hide my CVs for a little while yet but I need the CV cover. In a quite risky attempt to hide my true CV strenght I left one of the CVE TFs behind. Judging by our email correspondence after the lalaland 8 hex strike I think Erik believes I´m a lot weaker than I am. I want to maintain that illusion and hopefully draw him to battle. We still have just over 1000 planes. I have about 80% of the fighters on CAP. Erik will most likely not throw everything at this as he lacks bases in the vicinity.

Fingers crossed for tomorrow. Payback pt.2!

[BBfanboy]

The plan to attack Pegu depends on a couple of things.
Do you have any indication how much AV he has there now?
Can you estimate fort levels from the casualties inflicted by ground bombing [i.e. high forts = few casualties].

Speed is important to hit the newly arrived troops before they recover, but shock attacks into high levels of forts could be devastating.

Then there is the rule about automatic shock attack if 1/3 of your force is not across the river, and that for each hex side you attack across the river the 1/3 rule applies.

All in all I believe that if you can combine the 13,000 AV into one crossing point and move them all simultaneously, losses will be minimized.