Theoretical invasion of England

[Andy Mac]

It moved is the short answer my source indicates the Canandians were organising north west of London in July 40 and moved both 1st Div and later 2nd Div to be in reserve for the South Coast as of about August 40 (basically after 1st Can had finished its initial reorg and 2nd Div arrived I think they both moved to be the ready reserve for the South coast in late 40 after the initial emergancy was over)
 
Basically replacing the NZ 2nd Echelon (A bde sized unit that became a component of 2nd NZ Div) and 18th Australian Bde when they transferred to the ME
 
So the two timelines are consistent
 
During the Summer of 40 1st Can was NW of London with the ANZACs South of the Thames
 
During the Winter the ANZACs moved to the ME to roundout 9th Aus Div and 2nd NZ Div respectively and the Canadians (both 1st and 2nd Divs) moved into ready reserve for SE and Southern Commmand so its perfectly possible they were in the Farnham area - I dont have sources to show exact deployment areas so all I have know is they were in ready reserve for the South Coast from late 40 south of the Thames

[turkey]

Many thanks.

[herwin]

The British had countermeasures in place for Knickebein in time for the Battle of Britain. X-Geraet wasn't operational until November. The Coventry attack was a success, but countermeasures were able to block the other two Moonlight Sonata attacks.

Knickebein had an effective range of 300 miles and depended on a long baseline (Cleves to Jutland) to get that much accuracy. It wasn't very accurate at the delivery end. The accuracy of X-Geraet was about 100 m cross beam, but was more like a half kilometre down beam. Both were highly susceptible to simple ECM measures that the British were able to deploy in a few days.

We find ourselves working with related issues all the time in our robotics work.

[Local Yokel]

British scientists were able to pre-empt Knickebein even before the Germans began their attempts to use it in earnest: the essential information that enabled them to do so had been gleaned as early as 21 June 1940.

Dealing with X-Gerät was a much closer-run thing. As early as Adlertag (13 August) 20 aircraft from K.Gr.100 bombed a Spitfire factory near Birmingham (probably Castle Bromwich) with a high degree of accuracy using this system. The factory's buildings were hit by eleven bombs.

Thereafter K.Gr.100 made use of X-Gerät when acting as pathfinders to the highly effective Luftwaffe attack upon Coventry on 14/15 November 1940. Even by the time of that attack the British were already radiating spoof X-Gerät signals to counter the device, but the frequency was wrong by a factor of 500 cycles. The solution to this shortcoming already lay in British hands in the shape of the X-Gerät equipment salvaged from a K.Gr.100 Heinkel that had made a serious navigational error and landed in the shallows off Bridport in Dorset. From examination of this the British were able to establish the correct modulated frequency at which they had to emit their signal.

K.Gr.100's next attempt at pathfinder marking was against Birmingham on 19 November. Due to the modified jamming of the X-Gerät signals the unit was prevented from marking accurately and the following main force attack was dispersed over a wide area. What a difference just four days had made!

I conclude from this that Britain had the measure of the Luftwaffe's navigational aids sufficiently early to pre-empt effective attack on its aircraft industry. Moreover, as turkey correctly notes, and as the Allies themselves later found out, it proved extremely difficult to destroy production equipment. Easy enough to take the roofs off the factories; quite another thing to do enough damage the machines themselves.

Coincidentally, my grandfather too had the job of guarding a Starfish decoy target. They did some maintenance on it one day and omitted to tell him that the system remained 'live' when he came to conduct the customary firing test one night. The detonators were supposed to be isolated from the firing circuit when he ran test, but since they weren't - up went the dummy factory in a spectacular simulated attack!

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: herwin

The British had countermeasures in place for Knickebein in time for the Battle of Britain. X-Geraet wasn't operational until November. The Coventry attack was a success, but countermeasures were able to block the other two Moonlight Sonata attacks.

Knickebein had an effective range of 300 miles and depended on a long baseline (Cleves to Jutland) to get that much accuracy. We find ourselves working with related issues all the time in our robotics work.

Are you sure that "Knickebein" countrmeasure was ready at the beggining of "Battle of Britain"?

It took some time for British to to first identify it and then create the counterneasures for it...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

I checked my books and on-line (Greg Goebel's site) and there were no effective countermeasures against both "X-Gerät" and "Knickebein" at the beginning of the "Battle of Britain" and both were available and operational!

The British did know about "Knickebein" from late June 1940 and Dr. R.V. Jones was working on it but no effective countermeasure was made until the fall of 1940 (luckily for the British that's when the Germans abandoned their day attacks and switched useless terror bombing of the cities at night).

Thus the "X-Gerät" and "Knickebein" were possible to be used at night at the beginning of the "Battle of Britain" but German high command simply didn't use it (or didn't think that they should use it) because they wrongly believed that British would follow the French and be easily defeated... it was, of course., very very wrong thinking (but luckily for the world [:)])...


Leo "Apollo11"

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Japan

ah..The British proved their combat abilety (or lack of) in Afrika over and over aigan...  Rommel tied down huge number of britts with a small German and large incompetent Italien force...
The Britts also proved their poor combat abilety in Norway, were 3500 Germans held off 20 000+ of British and French at Narvik, untill they Germans managed a land line to it...
Not untill they had huge numbers and American help in Afrika did they have offencive sucsess.  
At Monte Casino a small German Paratroper Force held off huge numbers of British and American troops for ages, and at the Gustaf Line as well.
In france they also proved their lack of combat abiletys in 44 during Market Garden.

The reason to why they could not strike the RN at Dunkirk was ofcourse due to the RAF... but if the RAD got destroyed the RN would been destroyed in its ports.

So all in all, I personaly think that if the Air Suprimecy could been secured, and then the RN destroyedi in its ports...   The German Army could transported over its army (as much as needed) and run over the Brittish without to much struggle.  [:)]

the German performed better than what you could expect against the odds they faced, but when I read your posts I wonder how they could lose the war and why I´m now not owing 15 square kilometers of land somewhere in the Ukraine nowadays...

[Japan]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

the German performed better than what you could expect against the odds they faced, but when I read your posts I wonder how they could lose the war and why I´m now not owing 15 square kilometers of land somewhere in the Ukraine nowadays...

Well, its a bit off topic but a very very good question.


Personally I think the main reason to why Germany lost the war is due to the fact that they declared war on the USA.
Would it not been better to declare war on Japan for attacking the US... and to give all its political support to the USA, something who would made it nearly impossible for the US to declare war on Germany... The US population would simply not accepted it.

Also Germany did not Gear up its Industry for war until 1943. So, instead of converting the majority of its industry they still produced huge quantities of unnecessary consumer goods until 1943. Some 65% of the German Industry did things not necessary to support the population nor the war effort until 1943 that is. Germany had access to the resources to have it do war production, but did not do it anyway.

Future more, they got a completely incompetent ledership when Hitler put himself in charge of the OKW.

When you look at the number odds German troops in the field was facing, they did things they them self did not think was possible, like the invasion of France, and the huge distance they covered in Soviet on just a few months.
Remember that the German Logistic system was basikly Trains and Hourses!


Based on the Book of Albert Spear, here is a few things Germany could done better:

Germany wasted resources in a very bad way, In Chezkoslovakia they destroyed some 120 000 Trucks for no reason, and in France they destroyed 244 000 Trucks. This in total 360 000 Trucks could been used to support its Industrial Sector or to Supplie Frontline Units, but for no reason they were just destroyed. (PS: they could been supplied with spare parts as Germany had access to the production facilities, blueprints and Evan the workers who made the trucks in the first plase).

The German's could also trained the Italien Army up to its own standard, instead of sending that expedition to China to train Chinese divisions.. As they needed the Tungsten they maby had to do it, but at least they could have done both.
With the Italien army equipped and trained to German standards, and integrated with German forces (like Mussolini surgested) they would had a far larger superior fighting mashie. And aigen, no Industrial challenges as they had more or less not gered up for war, so alot of Industry available for the job. The Resources could be collected from Nationalist Spain, Nationalist China, Romania, Sweden, and the Oil by investing in Synthetic Oil plants in 1937 as surgested instead of in 1942.

They should also invaded Nationalist Spain, then secured Gibraltar.
They should also invaded Turkey and then secured Iraq, Persia and Suez. With a Land Connection via Turkey to the Front there would not been supplie problems like it was in Egypt who was requiring a sea convoy route to Benghazi, Tripoli or Tobruk.

Germany would won vs any Commonwealth force in the field, if they had fought on equal terns, like if both armys had been in supplie and equal number. Germany would Evan won with smaller numbers due to the German doctrines, tactics, equipment, combat ledership, and superior training and experience.

So, with a Land line to Suez and Gibraltar the Mediterranean would be cut-off. And the process of collecting and transporting the Oil from Iraq and Persia via Turkey to Romania for processing could begin.

The Mounten Chain between Turkey and Soviet would guarantee that Soviet union would been unable to penetrate a defense on the Turkish side, and large German formations could guarded the Border to Soviet in the event Soviet would declared war for whatever reason.

In Nationalist Spain there were huge quantity of individuals who would joined Germany, several with years of combat experience from the Spanish civil war from 36-39.

Germany could then started to make a "Meuganot line" type border to Soviet Union for future security of the Reich.

Thinks Albert Spear anyways.. but i assume he was wrong as most of you here is more quallefied then him to anwser the question..

[Dixie]

Early contender for Post of the Year 2009...

[wwengr]

If Otto Skorzeny had taken some commandos to Tristan da Cuhna, it would have resulted in the fall of Britain and the supremacy of the IJN in the South Pacific.

[Andy Mac]

I agree with a lot of what Japan is posting in this post declaring war on USA numbskull move by Hitler yeah I would agree that one
Not gearing up for total war yup another numbskull move
Hitler at OKW yup I would agree that one as well

No one has ever said the Wehrmacht did not acheive a lot with waht they had in 40/41/42 or even in 43/44 and 45 when they were in retreat

Training up the Italians - maybe not disputing if it could be done that it would add a lot to the Axis but the Italian rank and file didnt really want the war in the first place so not sure it was ever possible. Everyone under estimates how well the Italain units fought they did well on numerous occasions but they were hamstrung with poor leadership, old equipment, a large conscript army that didnt really want to fight - if it could be achieved then the extra manpower would add a lot but just not sure that it could be done and even if the manpower was trained and made to want to fight could they be equipped with modern equipment given the Oil shortages - I will give this one only a Maybe.

Spain is another interesting maybe - Franco was not secure enough on his own to risk Wehrmacht intervention - and Spain is a logistical nightmare to operate in - Gibralter would be a tough nut to take purely from a logistical point of view but bring enough airpower and troops and its probably vulnerable keeping Spain suppressed along your LOC thats the hard part.

Turkey another interesting one again they could have invaded but that leaves them with a huge long land LOC through the Balkans and Anatolia agaist Turks who had just kicked the Greeks out of their country - there was a reason they didnt attack Turkey - a land route would have left them with thousands of troops on LOC duty - partisans all the way no spearhead could be kept supplied and so much more area for the Soviets or RN to attack.

Basically IMO Turkey and Spain were disasters waiting to happen on logisitical grounds because the sea routes could never be secure as long as the RN is in the Med and so many troops would be required to

I of course disagree on the Germans defeating any CW force they met on equal terms

ORIGINAL: Japan

Personally I think the main reason to why Germany lost the war is due to the fact that they declared war on the USA.
Would it not been better to declare war on Japan for attacking the US... and to give all its political support to the USA, something who would made it nearly impossible for the US to declare war on Germany... The US population would simply not accepted it.

Also Germany did not Gear up its Industry for war until 1943. So, instead of converting the majority of its industry they still produced huge quantities of unnecessary consumer goods until 1943. Some 65% of the German Industry did things not necessary to support the population nor the war effort until 1943 that is. Germany had access to the resources to have it do war production, but did not do it anyway.

Future more, they got a completely incompetent ledership when Hitler put himself in charge of the OKW.

When you look at the number odds German troops in the field was facing, they did things they them self did not think was possible, like the invasion of France, and the huge distance they covered in Soviet on just a few months.
Remember that the German Logistic system was basikly Trains and Hourses!


Based on the Book of Albert Spear, here is a few things Germany could done better:

Germany wasted resources in a very bad way, In Chezkoslovakia they destroyed some 120 000 Trucks for no reason, and in France they destroyed 244 000 Trucks. This in total 360 000 Trucks could been used to support its Industrial Sector or to Supplie Frontline Units, but for no reason they were just destroyed. (PS: they could been supplied with spare parts as Germany had access to the production facilities, blueprints and Evan the workers who made the trucks in the first plase).

The German's could also trained the Italien Army up to its own standard, instead of sending that expedition to China to train Chinese divisions.. As they needed the Tungsten they maby had to do it, but at least they could have done both.
With the Italien army equipped and trained to German standards, and integrated with German forces (like Mussolini surgested) they would had a far larger superior fighting mashie. And aigen, no Industrial challenges as they had more or less not gered up for war, so alot of Industry available for the job. The Resources could be collected from Nationalist Spain, Nationalist China, Romania, Sweden, and the Oil by investing in Synthetic Oil plants in 1937 as surgested instead of in 1942.

They should also invaded Nationalist Spain, then secured Gibraltar.
They should also invaded Turkey and then secured Iraq, Persia and Suez. With a Land Connection via Turkey to the Front there would not been supplie problems like it was in Egypt who was requiring a sea convoy route to Benghazi, Tripoli or Tobruk.

Germany would won vs any Commonwealth force in the field, if they had fought on equal terns, like if both armys had been in supplie and equal number. Germany would Evan won with smaller numbers due to the German doctrines, tactics, equipment, combat ledership, and superior training and experience.

So, with a Land line to Suez and Gibraltar the Mediterranean would be cut-off. And the process of collecting and transporting the Oil from Iraq and Persia via Turkey to Romania for processing could begin.

The Mounten Chain between Turkey and Soviet would guarantee that Soviet union would been unable to penetrate a defense on the Turkish side, and large German formations could guarded the Border to Soviet in the event Soviet would declared war for whatever reason.

In Nationalist Spain there were huge quantity of individuals who would joined Germany, several with years of combat experience from the Spanish civil war from 36-39.

Germany could then started to make a "Meuganot line" type border to Soviet Union for future security of the Reich.

Thinks Albert Spear anyways.. but i assume he was wrong as most of you here is more quallefied then him to anwser the question..

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: Dixie

ORIGINAL: Japan

ah..The British proved their combat abilety (or lack of) in Afrika over and over aigan...  Rommel tied down huge number of britts with a small German and large incompetent Italien force...
The Britts also proved their poor combat abilety in Norway, were 3500 Germans held off 20 000+ of British and French at Narvik, untill they Germans managed a land line to it...
Not untill they had huge numbers and American help in Afrika did they have offencive sucsess.  
At Monte Casino a small German Paratroper Force held off huge numbers of British and American troops for ages, and at the Gustaf Line as well.
In france they also proved their lack of combat abiletys in 44 during Market Garden.

The reason to why they could not strike the RN at Dunkirk was ofcourse due to the RAF... but if the RAD got destroyed the RN would been destroyed in its ports.

So all in all, I personaly think that if the Air Suprimecy could been secured, and then the RN destroyedi in its ports...   The German Army could transported over its army (as much as needed) and run over the Brittish without to much struggle.  [:)]

Please, for the love of all that is good and holy, if you feel you really have to troll use a spellchecker...


EDIT: I'm beginning to suspect you are deliberatly spelling things wrong. [&:]

Really? Ya think? Just green button the little weasel and let him stew in his own misspelled juices...

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: Dixie

ORIGINAL: Japan

ah..The British proved their combat abilety (or lack of) in Afrika over and over aigan...  Rommel tied down huge number of britts with a small German and large incompetent Italien force...
The Britts also proved their poor combat abilety in Norway, were 3500 Germans held off 20 000+ of British and French at Narvik, untill they Germans managed a land line to it...
Not untill they had huge numbers and American help in Afrika did they have offencive sucsess.  
At Monte Casino a small German Paratroper Force held off huge numbers of British and American troops for ages, and at the Gustaf Line as well.
In france they also proved their lack of combat abiletys in 44 during Market Garden.

The reason to why they could not strike the RN at Dunkirk was ofcourse due to the RAF... but if the RAD got destroyed the RN would been destroyed in its ports.

So all in all, I personaly think that if the Air Suprimecy could been secured, and then the RN destroyedi in its ports...   The German Army could transported over its army (as much as needed) and run over the Brittish without to much struggle.  [:)]

Please, for the love of all that is good and holy, if you feel you really have to troll use a spellchecker...


EDIT: I'm beginning to suspect you are deliberatly spelling things wrong. [&:]

Really? Ya think? Just green button the little weasel and let him stew in his own misspelled juices...

I really do hope you use the green button on me. Unfortunately there exist no button for that what I would like to do with this... hmmmm... (put in some words that I´m not allowed to post in this forum)

you accomplished to be the pain in the ass of this forum for nearly four years now. Well done! I still can´t figure out how someone like you, that was even banned for weeks, accomplished the task to go on with your BS when all that happens is that people, who try to get rid of such a pain like you, get a pm from a moderator... lol

This doesn´t mean I´m agreeing with Japan, not at all. But there´s just no reason why YOU just have to ALWAYS throw the first stone at someone! Just try to behave like 99,9% of the rest of the forum that makes it a great place to be. Your comments are 90% of the times just insulting, spam or BS. Well, I admit, 10% of your posts are ok.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Really? Ya think? Just green button the little weasel and let him stew in his own misspelled juices...

Ah, my friend, immature, 9 year old, neo nazi, poseurs have a special place in this world of ours.

If you don't green button them, as you and I do, they do provide a certain amount of comic relief.

[borner]

The main there to me here is that if Germany did everything perfect, with the benifit of hindsight, it may have been possible. However, It took them time to get the forward airstrips ready that they had taken in NW France. Plus, at Dunkirk, the RN did take considerable damage, but the Germans were unable to inflict the type of damage on the RN that would have been needed to secure an invasion, so you have to wonder how much they could inflict on the main obdy of the RN in the time available.
 
Also, while hitting the radar stations would have been critical, the Germans chose not to do this, as they did not understand just how important they were.
 
Now, if Germany had not made the very silly choice to hit London just when the airfields were starting to feel the effects of repeated strikes, what would have happened. Did the Germans have the strength to hit aircraft factories, shore installations, airfileds, and pound the RN by this time of the campaig?

[Dixie]

Found this on another forum, according to the poster there this is the actual result of Sealion as simulated at Sandhurst post-war.

Operation Sealion - summary of an exercise held at the
Staff College, Sandhurst in 1974.

The full text is in 'Sealion' by Richard Cox. The scenario is based on the
known plans of each side, plus previously unpublished Admiralty weather
records for September 1940. Each side (played by British and German officers
respectively) was based in a command room, and the actual moves plotted on a
scale model of SE England constructed at the School of Infantry. The panel
of umpires included Adolf Galland, Admiral Friedrich Ruge, Air Chief Marshal
Sir Christopher Foxley-Norris, Rear Admiral Edward Gueritz, General Heinz
Trettner and Major General Glyn Gilbert.


The main problem the Germans face is that are a) the Luftwaffe has not yet
won air supremacy; b) the possible invasion dates are constrained by the
weather and tides (for a high water attack) and c) it has taken until late
September to assemble the necessary shipping.


22nd September
Morning The first wave of a planned 330,000 men hit the beaches at dawn.
Elements of 9 divisions landed between Folkestone and Rottingdean (near
Brighton). In addition 7th FJ Div landed at Lympne to take the airfield.


The invasion fleet suffered minor losses from MTBs during the night
crossing, but the RN had already lost one CA and three DDs sunk, with one CA
and two DDs damaged, whilst sinking three German DDs. Within hours of the
landings which overwhelmed the beach defenders, reserve formations were
despatched to Kent. Although there were 25 divisions in the UK, only 17
were fully equipped, and only three were based in Kent, however the defence
plan relied on the use of mobile reserves and armoured and mechanised
brigades were committed as soon as the main landings were identified.


Meanwhile the air battle raged, the Luftwaffe flew 1200 fighter and 800
bomber sorties before 1200 hrs. The RAF even threw in training planes
hastily armed with bombs, but the Luftwaffe were already having problems
with their short ranged Me 109s despite cramming as many as possible into
the Pas de Calais.


22nd - 23rd September
The Germans had still not captured a major port, although they started
driving for Folkestone. Shipping unloading on the beaches suffered heavy
losses from RAF bombing raids and then further losses at their ports in
France.


The U-Boats, Luftwaffe and few surface ships had lost contact with the RN,
but then a cruiser squadron with supporting DDs entered the Channel narrows
and had to run the gauntlet of long range coastal guns, E-Boats and 50
Stukas. Two CAs were sunk and one damaged. However a diversionary German
naval sortie from Norway was completely destroyed and other sorties by MTBS
and DDs inflicted losses on the shipping milling about in the Channel.
German shipping losses on the first day amounted to over 25% of their
invasion fleet, especially the barges, which proved desperately unseaworthy.


23rd Sept dawn - 1400 hrs.
The RAF had lost 237 planes out 1048 (167 fighters and 70 bombers), and the
navy had suffered enough losses such that it was keeping its BBs and CVs
back, but large forces of DDs and CAs were massing. Air recon showed a
German buildup in Cherbourg and forces were diverted to the South West.


The German Navy were despondant about their losses, especially as the loss
of barges was seriously dislocating domestic industry. The Army and Airforce
commanders were jubilant however, and preperations for the transfer of the
next echelon continued along with the air transport of 22nd Div, despite
Luftwaffe losses of 165 fighters and 168 bombers. Out of only 732 fighters
and 724 bombers these were heavy losses. Both sides overestimated losses
inflicted by 50%.


The 22nd Div airlanded successfully at Lympne, although long range artillery
fire directed by a stay-behind commando group interdicted the runways. The
first British counterattacks by 42nd Div supported by an armoured brigade
halted the German 34th Div in its drive on Hastings. 7th Panzer Div was
having difficulty with extensive anti-tank obstacles and assault teams armed
with sticky bombs etc. Meanwhile an Australian Div had retaken Newhaven (the
only German port), however the New Zealand Div arrived at Folkestone only to
be attacked in the rear by 22nd Airlanding Div. The division fell back on
Dover having lost 35% casualties.


Sep 23rd 1400 - 1900 hrs
Throughout the day the Luftwaffe put up a maximum effort, with 1500 fighter
and 460 bomber sorties, but the RAF persisted in attacks on shipping and
airfields. Much of this effort was directed for ground support and air
resupply, despite Adm Raeders request for more aircover over the Channel.
The Home Fleet had pulled out of air range however, leaving the fight in the
hands of 57 DDs and 17 CAs plus MTBs. The Germans could put very little
surface strength against this. Waves of DDs and CAs entered the Channel, and
although two were sunk by U-Boats, they sank one U-Boat in return and did
not stop. The German flotilla at Le Havre put to sea (3 DD, 14 E-Boats) and
at dusk intercepted the British, but were wiped out, losing all their DDs
and 7 E-Boats.


The Germans now had 10 divisions ashore, but in many cases these were
incomplete and waiting for their second echelon to arrive that night. The
weather was unsuitable for the barges however, and the decision to sail was
referred up the chain of command.


23rd Sep 1900 - Sep 24th dawn
The Fuhrer Conference held at 1800 broke out into bitter inter-service
rivalry - the Army wanted their second echelon sent, and the navy protesting
that the weather was unsuitable, and the latest naval defeat rendered the
Channel indefensible without air support. Goring countered this by saying it
could only be done by stopped the terror bombing of London, which in turn
Hitler vetoed. The fleet was ordered to stand by.


The RAF meanwhile had lost 97 more fighters leaving only 440. The airfields
of 11 Group were cratered ruins, and once more the threat of collapse, which
had receded in early September, was looming. The Luftwaffe had lost another
71 fighters and 142 bombers. Again both sides overestimated losses
inflicted, even after allowing for inflated figures.


On the ground the Germans made good progress towards Dover and towards
Canterbury, however they suffered reverses around Newhaven when the 45th Div
and Australians attacked. At 2150 Hitler decided to launch the second wave,
but only the short crossing from Calais and Dunkirk. By the time the order
reached the ports, the second wave could not possibly arrive before dawn.
The 6th and 8th divisions at Newhaven, supplied from Le Havre, would not be
reinforced at all.


Sep 24th dawn - Sep 28th
The German fleet set sail, the weather calmed, and U-Boats, E-Boats and
fighters covered them. However at daylight 5th destroyer flotilla found the
barges still 10 miles off the coast and tore them to shreds. The Luftwaffe
in turn committed all its remaining bombers, and the RAF responded with 19
squadrons of fighters. The Germans disabled two CAs and four DDs, but 65% of
the barges were sunk. The faster steamers broke away and headed for
Folkestone, but the port had been so badly damaged that they could only
unload two at a time.


The failure on the crossing meant that the German situation became
desperate. The divisions had sufficient ammunition for 2 to 7 days more
fighting, but without extra men and equipment could not extend the
bridgehead. Hitler ordered the deployment on reserve units to Poland and the
Germans began preparations for an evacuation as further British arracks
hemmed them in tighter. Fast steamers and car ferries were assembled for
evacuation via Rye and Folkestone. Of 90,000 troops who landed on 22nd
september, only 15,400 returned to France, the rest
were killed or captured.

In less than a week, the German invasion of Britain ends in desaster

[Blackhorse]

ORIGINAL: borner
Now, if Germany had not made the very silly choice to hit London just when the airfields were starting to feel the effects of repeated strikes, what would have happened. Did the Germans have the strength to hit aircraft factories, shore installations, airfileds, and pound the RN by this time of the campaig?

By that time of the campaign it was too late for the Germans to change their approach -- by the time it could be effective the 'weather window' would have closed for an invasion until the Spring of 1941.

As you suggested, the Germans would have had to do everything right to even have a chance of pulling off an invasion . . . having a serious Sealion plan in place even before France was attacked . . . assembling barges and starting the air campaign against England before France fell . . . going after the radar stations, airfields and aircraft production right from the start, and not deviating . . . and hoping that the planned Channel blockade by Stukas, mines, U-boats and E-boats really could keep the British fleet from interfering with the invasion.

[Japan]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Really? Ya think? Just green button the little weasel and let him stew in his own misspelled juices...

Ah, my friend, immature, 9 year old, neo nazi, poseurs have a special place in this world of ours.

If you don't green button them, as you and I do, they do provide a certain amount of comic relief.

Well, Terminus, Dixie and JWE
I don't understand why you have to become so rude and insulting.
Based on Caster Troys post I understand one of you had gotten banned earlier for this type of behavior.

Regardless, the forum is as I understand a please for debate and discussion, and there will always be individuals who disagree on several subjects, and it is suppose to be.. after all its a forum were discussing takes please.

Some of you three have called me everything from a Pathetic Troll to now a 9 year old Neo Natzi, I still do not understand what i have done to you. Can you not handle to not always have right, or that others may have other perspectives on things.

If you can not disagree in a subject without calling people things then I think you should ask yourself who the 9 year old is.

I have jet not called any of you for anything, but still you ceep doing so.
So please stop with the repetitive insulting behavior and stay freindly instead, there is no reason for this types of behavior.
Its a forum, people must be able to disagree in different subjects without beeing called for names or deliberetly insulted by other users. I think it is important to note that some of you are forum moderators, and still you behave this way.

So, please behave like Gentlemen.

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: Japan

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Really? Ya think? Just green button the little weasel and let him stew in his own misspelled juices...

Ah, my friend, immature, 9 year old, neo nazi, poseurs have a special place in this world of ours.

If you don't green button them, as you and I do, they do provide a certain amount of comic relief.

Well, Terminus, Dixie and JWE
I don't understand why you have to become so rude and insulting.
Based on Caster Troys post I understand one of you had gotten banned earlier for this type of behavior.

Regardless, the forum is as I understand a please for debate and discussion, and there will always be individuals who disagree on several subjects, and it is suppose to be.. after all its a forum were discussing takes please.

Some of you three have called me everything from a Pathetic Troll to now a 9 year old Neo Natzi, I still do not understand what i have done to you. Can you not handle to not always have right, or that others may have other perspectives on things.

If you can not disagree in a subject without calling people things then I think you should ask yourself who the 9 year old is.

I have jet not called any of you for anything, but still you ceep doing so.
So please stop with the repetitive insulting behavior and stay freindly instead, there is no reason for this types of behavior.
Its a forum, people must be able to disagree in different subjects without beeing called for names or deliberetly insulted by other users. I think it is important to note that some of you are forum moderators, and still you behave this way.

So, please behave like Gentlemen.

Some of your recent posts, whilst maybe not meant as such, seem to be trolling.

I could deal with that if you would at least try to spell properly in your posts. I can deal with trolling or bad spelling but not both. [:-] I have enough issues following some of your posts and I have English as a first language, many people on the forums don't.

[jwilkerson]

Locked.