Theoretical invasion of England

[niceguy2005]

I know that Germany never really got that close to an invasion of England. However, has anyone ever seen a game, or a paper that tries to accurately play out such a scenario? I'm curious what the German plans might have been, what English defenses would have been like, what likely outcomes were predicted. It's an intriguing what-if that I never hear about.

I suppose one would have to pre-suppose that the UK had lost the battle of Britain and that for all intents and purposes the RAF was nearly wiped out.

[Iridium]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
I suppose one would have to pre-suppose that the UK had lost the battle of Britain and that for all intents and purposes the RAF was nearly wiped out.

+1 on that.

The biggest problem I see is that Germany lost numerous DDs during it's invasion of Norway. I don't know if Norway's defenses were comparable to England's (I'd assume not) but if I were to take a wild stab at it:

Germany would lose many naval assets in such an attempt and probably lose no matter how hard they tried. Unless England just sits there and allows a beachhead to form and gives no resistance at all...

British subs might have had more historically thrilling tales to tell.

[anarchyintheuk]

Panzer General inaccurately plays out an 'Invasion of England' scenario.

[Iridium]

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Panzer General inaccurately plays out an 'Invasion of England' scenario.

Honestly, I don't think any game will accurately portray an operation Sealion. It just wasn't feasible no matter how much air superiority Germany gained. Supplying an army on England with cargo ships would have been a nightmare. Subs, DD fleets running at night, after England makes or gets more aircraft from the US, they would have eaten cargo fleets alive.

The only way I can imagine England being lost is if it was starved near death and surrendered without a fight (England's tenacity being what it was, I find this hard to imagine as well).

EDIT: According to wiki this is the OOB:

Sealion OOB

[wwengr]

ORIGINAL: Iridium

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
I suppose one would have to pre-suppose that the UK had lost the battle of Britain and that for all intents and purposes the RAF was nearly wiped out.

+1 on that.

The biggest problem I see is that Germany lost numerous DDs during it's invasion of Norway. I don't know if Norway's defenses were comparable to England's (I'd assume not) but if I were to take a wild stab at it:

Germany would lose many naval assets in such an attempt and probably lose no matter how hard they tried. Unless England just sits there and allows a beachhead to form and gives no resistance at all...

British subs might have had more historically thrilling tales to tell.

In Norway, the Kriegsmarine lost 1 Heavy Cruiser, 1 Light Cruiser, 10 Destroyers, and 6 U-boats in the Naval Campaign to land forces in Norway. Many other ships were damaged. The Royal Navy lost 1 Aircraft Carrier, two cruisers, seven destroyers, and a submarine. The French Navy lost a Destroyer. The Royal Norwegian Navy lost 1 destroyer, 2 Coastal Patrol ships, and 2 submarines.

It was about an even exchange in numbers, but the Royal Navy was much larger than the Kriegsmarine and could afford teh losses.

With regard to operation Sealion, I think it would have been a bloodbath against the Germans. The remnants of even a defeated British air power would have been in play and the Germans, like the rest of the world at the time, did not have a realistic, viable amphibious doctrine or the ability to make a functioning port in England. There were not enough transport aircraft in existence in the world to sustain teh size of force required. The Royal Navy's Home Fleet would have williingly sustained major casualties as it filled the English Channel with sunken German ships.

[Dixie]

Add in the fact that to establish a sustainable beachhead each of the German invasion barges would have had to make multiple trips, and the heavy losses that they would have suffered and the enterprise looks more than a little shaky.

[skrewball]

All you have to do is look at the forces involved in Operation Overlord! The Germans had no-where near the amount of hardware that the allies brought with them and that is probably what it would have took.

[JeffroK]

TOAW III offers scenarios as well as a mod of COTA.

SPI put out a solataire game eons ago.

None really portray the full effort, COTA is a battle for the Folkestone area, no naval or air involvement, TOAW does it in an abstract way & the SPI game (Seelowe?) is 70's era gaming.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: skrewball

All you have to do is look at the forces involved in Operation Overlord! The Germans had no-where near the amount of hardware that the allies brought with them and that is probably what it would have took.

The German wouldn´t have needed as much as the Allied brought for Overlord because even if the German defenses against Overlord were far weaker than what the Atlantikwall should have looked like, compared to what the English had at the coast at the time of Sealion it was like a Maginot line at the French Atlantic coast.

But I agree with all other posters, Sealion would have been a total disaster. IMO what would have made this operation impossible would be the Royal Navy which would contribute the most in a victory against an invasion of Britain. A defeated RAF and the remaining, weakly armed ground troops would perhaps not have been enough to stop the German invasion.... but only perhaps....

[stuman]

Two of a couple of sites I found;
http://www.americanheritage.com/entertainment/articles/web/20061021-alternate-history-world-war-II-operation-sea-lion-invasion-of-britain.shtml
 
http://gateway.alternatehistory.com/essays/Sealion.html

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

I know that Germany never really got that close to an invasion of England. However, has anyone ever seen a game, or a paper that tries to accurately play out such a scenario? I'm curious what the German plans might have been, what English defenses would have been like, what likely outcomes were predicted. It's an intriguing what-if that I never hear about.

I suppose one would have to pre-suppose that the UK had lost the battle of Britain and that for all intents and purposes the RAF was nearly wiped out.

Break 'em out and set 'em up...

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: wwengr

With regard to operation Sealion, I think it would have been a bloodbath against the Germans. The remnants of even a defeated British air power would have been in play and the Germans, like the rest of the world at the time, did not have a realistic, viable amphibious doctrine or the ability to make a functioning port in England. There were not enough transport aircraft in existence in the world to sustain teh size of force required. The Royal Navy's Home Fleet would have williingly sustained major casualties as it filled the English Channel with sunken German ships.

From what little I know, I agree that the lack of an amphibious doctrine would have been a very large hurdle. The German barges apparently could not carry tanks and artillery in sufficient quantity, vital weapons which gave the German army such an advantage. THe only chance of success I see is that they would have had to come up with a way to transport mechanized units in mass.

I'm less convinced that the RN could have prevented success. IF, as Hitler intended, the RN could be sufficiently engaged in the Med and Atlantic it is likely a beach head could be established. Once established it was a matter of the effectiveness of German army blitzkrieg tactics. I don't think a prolonged siege of the UK was viable. An invading commander would have to go for the jugular. It is questionable if Germany could keep supply lines open for months.

I wonder if the value of air power isn't being under estimated. How many torpedo bombers did Germany have? Had anyone ever made a successful night aerial torpedo attack? Mines and torpedo bombers might have been enough to keep the RN at arms length.

...then there's always the question of American involvement.

Edit: I did notice that in the wiki article on Sealion, they mention a wargame conducted by the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst, which did show the success of Germany establishing a beach head. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sealion

[Mynok]

I don't think the Germans had any purpose-built torpedo bombers. Most of their anti-shipping arsenal was Stukas.

EDIT: He-115 appears to have been used as a torpedo bomber along with its primary role as a minelayer and scout.

[stuman]

I don't think Germany had a well developed, fully functional, supplied, etc. torpedo capability at that point. THe British Army was in a weakened state after Dunkirk, but I can only imagine to what lengths every last pilot, and ship wpuld go to to hit those unwieldy barges.  If memory serves me, I do not think many high ranking German field officers were keen on the idea.

[Japan]

 

ORIGINAL: stuman

If memory serves me, I do not think many high ranking German field officers were keen on the idea.

Well.. I dont't think the Officers wanted to Invade France either... "It will be the end of Germany" some of them sayed.


After Dunkirk, UK had only enugth Heavy Equcimant in England to equip one singel divition.

If adding together all the homeguards (who had very few weapons), and the british army in UK who only had rifles
and light weapons (as its hevy weapons was left in Dunkirk) I dont think they would need very many divitions to secure the UK.

Assuming they had Total Air Supirriority, then they could prevented the British Fleet of entering the Channal.
The British Admiralety would never accepted "suecide" missions to stop a German Invation.

By landing 25 000 Paratroops on the British Channel Costlines, and then Airlifting in another 60 000 men to secure Channal Ports... then moving across 15-20 divitions on Barges and smaller ships to this channel ports..then starting to shipping in supplies...

Maby it could have worked,  but I think if they would managed air Supiriority they could managed it. 

Army vs Army there is definetly no doubdt... question has to be how fast and effectively they could moved their army across the channel.

If I was in charge I would invaded Gibralter, via Nationalist Spain if needed (regardless of what Franco would think about it) ... and then asked the Italiens to assist in Sealion with their entire Airforce and entire mershant fleet and navy.

[castor troy]

20.000 paratroopers? Airlifting in 60.000 troops???? [&:] You are still talking about Germany? In 1940? And 20 divisions on barges?

Of what time frame are we talking about? 3 months?

[Japan]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

20.000 paratroopers? Airlifting in 60.000 troops???? [&:] You are still talking about Germany? In 1940? And 20 divisions on barges?

Of what time frame are we talking about? 3 months?

Well, Airlifting in the Troops I think they could have done.. they did it on Malme Airbase on Crete,
and also on multiple locations in Norway. They Airlifted a Para Corps in on 3 days, and then after the airfield was secured the airlifted a Full Divition with Hevy Equicmant in to Malme Airbase on a singel day. They had the opinion that airlifting in 60 000 men with hevy equicmant would take up to 1 week.

The plans Germany had for Sealion, was to Paradrop 19 800 men onto Britain, they did not have that many trained Paratroops, however they planned to do same as they did in Norway.. to give a "crash course" in Paradropping to Mounten Troops and then to use them as Paratroopers. So it would in fact be a wast majorety of Mounten Troops they dropped in... but it does not matter realy, as due to the conditions of the British Army German Mounten troops would preformed fairly good vs them anyways.

[Odin]

From my point of view, Britain was finally save because of the following points:

1. It is an Island, so a big, well equipped fleet, were needed. At this time, the german navy was far away from that.

2. An Airforce which was not equipped to carry out a strategic bombing campaign,it was mainly organized as a force to support ground forces (one-third of Luftwaffe aircraft in 1940 were Stukas i read somewhere, no really heavy bombers, only attack aircraft like the HE-111, f.e. ...)

3. The Adolf-Factor (foolish orders in military things, like the one from switching attacks from airfields and industrial targets of interest to shitty and military useless bombing of citys, at a point the RAF was very weak already.



For my part:

I´m a german, and i say, if Britain had fallen, i would live now in a prison never seen before, with misthrust, fear, anger....in this dark times even childs denounced their parents, and other way...i cannot explain what else. The years of Adolf can only explained by the people who lived under him.

This means:

Thank you Britain, and good save the Queen![&o]



Odin[8D]

[Oldguard1970]

[;)]  Oh my, oh my - What memories!
 
In the early '60s I designed "Operation Sealion" based on the "D-Day" engine.  I offered it to Avalon Hill.  (My price was to be a free production copy.) To my eternal astonishment, they did not want it, so you cannot find a copy to play.  How sad!

[bradfordkay]

"Well, Airlifting in the Troops I think they could have done.. they did it on Malme Airbase on Crete, "
 
And suffered such heavy losses that their paratroop forces were never again a major factor in the war...