Some discussion of 1.0.5

[Yarasala]

ORIGINAL: Barleyman

ORIGINAL: taltamir
10x the cost for a colony ship with 10x the pop when you require that it REMOVE said pop from the planet that built it makes NO SENSE!
If colony ships stop producing colonists out of thin air, then there is no reason to EVER pay more for a colony ship... because passenger ships could and would easily make up any deficit by moving people around.
It also makes the loss of a colony ship devastating, its very expensive AND carries many precious citizens...

You're talking like colonizing another planet shouldn't be expensive undertaking with failure being devastating? That's how it is in most 4X games and it seems to work pretty good too.

Let's say the aim is to slow down colony spam - Making the ships expensive and fresh colonies resource/money sinks would force you to consider your options instead of spreading through the map like a proverbial locusts. Cf sword of the stars how this can work.

Agreed, like stated in another thread. Obviously that is an important point that a lot of players (at least of those who write in this forum [;)]) want to see changed. And again I vote for a (moddable / optional) possibilty to reduce the range of ships drastically.

But I also like the possibility to (optionally) increase the price of colony ships. To make them take their pop from the planet instead of from thin air would be preferable, but surely harder to implement.

Btw, independent colonies *do* benefit you because the pop is higher and the colony gives you more profit faster.

I would also like an option to increase unrest the more different species are at the same planet (what may be further influenced by a tolerance setting per race and / or government type), but along with a possibility to somehow control which species goes where. This control doesn't need to be absolute, just a setting like "prefer colonists of race X" per planet would do if then passenger ships try to gradually ship race X to the planet and ship all other races away.

And, about the problem that you need certain races to colonize certain planet types: introduce terraforming tech like in so many other 4x space games (whatever terraforming is for a specific race [:D]).

[Locarnus]

ORIGINAL: Yarasala

And, about the problem that you need certain races to colonize certain planet types: introduce terraforming tech like in so many other 4x space games (whatever terraforming is for a specific race ).

I think terraforming is implemented in this game better than in most others.
You can fully inhabit marsh and desert with research (read: terraforming ability) without biosphere.
But you can never convert a small ice planet/moon into something even partly resembling eg dune or even earth.

not enough mass -> not enough gravitation -> impossible to hold an atmosphere (and certainly not an oxigen/nitrogen one) regardless of terraforming scifi, just 6th grade physics

terraforming means (in the widest sense) to form a celestial object (and most likely only a layer some tens of kilometers thick), within the laws of physics

I understand that one aspect of scifi is to bend or even break some physical rules or current understandings of those, but I m quite happy when it is not done too much too often
reptilians on ice planets without atmosphere is cruel enough...
then rather the silicoids from moo2...

[Yarasala]

ORIGINAL: Locarnus

ORIGINAL: Yarasala

And, about the problem that you need certain races to colonize certain planet types: introduce terraforming tech like in so many other 4x space games (whatever terraforming is for a specific race ).

I think terraforming is implemented in this game better than in most others.
You can fully inhabit marsh and desert with research (read: terraforming ability) without biosphere.
But you can never convert a small ice planet/moon into something even partly resembling eg dune or even earth.

not enough mass -> not enough gravitation -> impossible to hold an atmosphere (and certainly not an oxigen/nitrogen one) regardless of terraforming scifi, just 6th grade physics

terraforming means (in the widest sense) to form a celestial object (and most likely only a layer some tens of kilometers thick), within the laws of physics

I understand that one aspect of scifi is to bend or even break some physical rules or current understandings of those, but I m quite happy when it is not done too much too often
reptilians on ice planets without atmosphere is cruel enough...
then rather the silicoids from moo2...

Sorry, but "bending" (or rather extrapolating [;)]) physics is just part of such a game. Install gravity generators on said ice moon, install artificial suns orbiting the planet in low orbits etc.
So you can always explain complete terraforming to yourself.
In MoO2 you could form completely new planets from asteroid belts. So if the planet doesn't suit you destroy it and reassemble the parts with advanced enough technology ... [:D]

[Dadekster]

That kind of stuff occurrs near the end of the game though near the end of the tech tree with sun destroyers and planet creation techs. I'd worry more about the beginning of the game (colony spamming) then the end although I do understand the point you are making. [;)]

I think a lot of this has to do with the philosophy/game design that the dev's intend. Do they want to make this a game where each colony is a precious thing where its loss will have implications or do they want it to be a game where unless you lose a whole sector you shouldn't flinch? It is over arching decisions like this that should determine things like colony expansion rate and so forth imo. As it is now I feel that planets on a single basis even in the early game are pretty throughaway, not counting your homeworld that is. Planets are indistinguishable from one another other than maybe the ones with ruins or unless it has one of the four coveted resources. So maybe colony spamming is what they want. If so it works.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Barleyman

ORIGINAL: taltamir
10x the cost for a colony ship with 10x the pop when you require that it REMOVE said pop from the planet that built it makes NO SENSE!
If colony ships stop producing colonists out of thin air, then there is no reason to EVER pay more for a colony ship... because passenger ships could and would easily make up any deficit by moving people around.
It also makes the loss of a colony ship devastating, its very expensive AND carries many precious citizens...

You're talking like colonizing another planet shouldn't be expensive undertaking with failure being devastating? That's how it is in most 4X games and it seems to work pretty good too.

Let's say the aim is to slow down colony spam - Making the ships expensive and fresh colonies resource/money sinks would force you to consider your options instead of spreading through the map like a proverbial locusts. Cf sword of the stars how this can work.

You misunderstand. I am saying that this will give you a choice:
1. use newest tech for devastating results.
2. use old tech to remove the devastating results.

If you want to implement such a thing you need to:
1. Hamstring passenger ships.
2. Make ALL colony modules cost about the same, so "upgrading" to higher tech will not be a great increase in risk and cost at no benefit.

It make no sense for a "higher tech level" colony module give you 10x the passenger capacity and 10x the cost... because that does NOT make it better, it makes it INFERIOR...

[Barleyman]

I would also like an option to increase unrest the more different species are at the same planet (what may be further influenced by a tolerance setting per race and / or government type), but along with a possibility to somehow control which species goes where. This control doesn't need to be absolute, just a setting like "prefer colonists of race X" per planet would do if then passenger ships try to gradually ship race X to the planet and ship all other races away.

And, about the problem that you need certain races to colonize certain planet types: introduce terraforming tech like in so many other 4x space games (whatever terraforming is for a specific race [:D]).

SoTS handles xenophobia and population control pretty well. 1st of all, you cannot shazam an alien culture into your empire just like that. You have to perform a series of rather expensive research projects to integrate aliens into your culture as productive members. Learning the language and later, trade is fairly simple but beyond that it gets more difficult.

If only the population control is bit cheesy as it should cause wild unrest to impose stright birth control policies.

A pretty drastic (and effective) way to cut down on the colony spam would be to limit colonization to the "master race" .. After all it's kinda cheesy you'd invest huge resources (well, in case of DW, very modest resources) to set up a new colony to alien species that would be liable to revolt and join another faction at a drop of a hat.

We've already been through the obvious culprits in creating locust colonization - Very cheap colony ships, can colonize with any species, new colonies are not money sinks and of course, colonists being cloned. Very elegant solution to the latter problem would be to make colony ships recruitable like troops are.

DW is sort of like socialist utopia where all species are immediately happily cooperating just like that.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Yarasala

ORIGINAL: Locarnus

ORIGINAL: Yarasala

And, about the problem that you need certain races to colonize certain planet types: introduce terraforming tech like in so many other 4x space games (whatever terraforming is for a specific race ).

I think terraforming is implemented in this game better than in most others.
You can fully inhabit marsh and desert with research (read: terraforming ability) without biosphere.
But you can never convert a small ice planet/moon into something even partly resembling eg dune or even earth.

not enough mass -> not enough gravitation -> impossible to hold an atmosphere (and certainly not an oxigen/nitrogen one) regardless of terraforming scifi, just 6th grade physics

terraforming means (in the widest sense) to form a celestial object (and most likely only a layer some tens of kilometers thick), within the laws of physics

I understand that one aspect of scifi is to bend or even break some physical rules or current understandings of those, but I m quite happy when it is not done too much too often
reptilians on ice planets without atmosphere is cruel enough...
then rather the silicoids from moo2...

Sorry, but "bending" (or rather extrapolating [;)]) physics is just part of such a game. Install gravity generators on said ice moon, install artificial suns orbiting the planet in low orbits etc.
So you can always explain complete terraforming to yourself.
In MoO2 you could form completely new planets from asteroid belts. So if the planet doesn't suit you destroy it and reassemble the parts with advanced enough technology ... [:D]

I've always been in the camp of "Enjoy the game and don't analyze it." That is, forget about what is real and possible and just enjoy the game for what it is, entertainment.

IF you take some of our favorite Sci-Fi movies...any human that shot lightning from his fingertips would 1) at the very least get nasty burns to said fingertips or 2) die, yet still I enjoy the Star Wars movies. I know that Palpatine coulnd't possibly shoot lightning from his fingertips in real life, but that does not spoil my enjoyment of the movies. I'm leaving the real world behind while I'm enjoying the movie. It's an escape from reality, which is a good thing now and then.

[Anonymous]

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