Guadalcanal scenario: took Lunga & Tulagi, what now?

[Randy Stead]

Actually, I think I may have figured out part of my own question. If the base goes to Australia Command [R] then any units in that base will not be able to go aboard ships?

In the scenario I freely moved air units from base to base irrespective of ownership. I didn't pay attention at all to HQ assignments for the air units on Australia and New Guinea and moved air units freely back and forth. I did not move any units from Noumea to Australia or vice versa. I know some air units are assigned to SW-PAC and some to SouthPac but in the game I kept them to their respective sides of the theater. In a sense, aside from ships which took supplies and fuel between Australia, New Guinea and Noumea the forces operated as if in two different theaters.

I've another idea forming in my mind, replaying the scenario again as Allies in order to better use the assets I was given, now that I have a better idea of what I am doing. But before trying a replay I plan to obtain a much better understanding of repair assets and HQ issues, as my questions here reveal I do not have as yet a proper understanding. I've got some documents in my AE related folder and it is time I printed them out and put them into the binder for review. I prefer reading text on paper to screen; in spite of the new glasses I still prefer paper.

[RangerJoe]

Nope. Only the units belonging to that restricted command can not board ships - they may go to other bases by land even if they don't belong to that command.

[Randy Stead]

Got it. Thanks again, Joe.

Since I still have a bunch of saved game files from that scenario I am going to go through it again and note every type of minelayer, tender and repair asset I had and review how I could have done better. For example, I had a destroyer or two and some merchants with one major point of damage that I could not remove when they were in port at Townsville or Noumea. Surely with the assets I had I should have been able to repair them fully; I just didn't know how. I also had a couple of subs with one major damage point in Townsville and Noumea but I sent them to Sydney. There has to be a better way and I think the assets to repair them were in the scenario. Same thing with the SC sub chasers that couldn't rearm the mousetrap depth charges. I think it was a matter of not enough supply in the base, as much of the scenario I had low levels of supply when/where they were needed.

I still don't think I'm ready yet for a "no Mulligans" long campaign, but I'm closer than I was a month ago.

[BBfanboy]

I think you may have some Aussie units that were bought out to 1st Aus. Corps which is unrestricted, but reports to Aus. Command (unless you also buy it out). In this way you would have paid 25% of the PP to make the LCUs unrestricted under 1 Aus. Corps, and then moved them to serve in SWPAC area of operations. The Aussie units would still technically belong to Aus. Command, not SWPAC.

[Randy Stead]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I think you may have some Aussie units that were bought out to 1st Aus. Corps which is unrestricted, but reports to Aus. Command (unless you also buy it out). In this way you would have paid 25% of the PP to make the LCUs unrestricted under 1 Aus. Corps, and then moved them to serve in SWPAC area of operations. The Aussie units would still technically belong to Aus. Command, not SWPAC.

That's it right there. I did not during my game buy out any units to go into 1st Aus. Corps; I simply had the Corps HQ in or next to the engaged units. What I did post-scenario is open a saved turn in which I had plenty of PPs accumulated by the end of the game {about 1800} and played around with buying out units to an HQ within higher command and did notice it was much cheaper to buy them out that way.

I do have a query, and I think the answer is "yes" as I flipped through the manual again in bed last night {until 2AM!}. If I buy out the restricted Australia Command and turn it into an unrestricted command, all of its subordinate units would also become unrestricted. This sounds like a one-click-fixes-all solution but without even opening a saved turn, which I will do after posting] I will wager it is very expensive.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I think you may have some Aussie units that were bought out to 1st Aus. Corps which is unrestricted, but reports to Aus. Command (unless you also buy it out). In this way you would have paid 25% of the PP to make the LCUs unrestricted under 1 Aus. Corps, and then moved them to serve in SWPAC area of operations. The Aussie units would still technically belong to Aus. Command, not SWPAC.

That's it right there. I did not during my game buy out any units to go into 1st Aus. Corps; I simply had the Corps HQ in or next to the engaged units. What I did post-scenario is open a saved turn in which I had plenty of PPs accumulated by the end of the game {about 1800} and played around with buying out units to an HQ within higher command and did notice it was much cheaper to buy them out that way.

I do have a query, and I think the answer is "yes" as I flipped through the manual again in bed last night {until 2AM!}. If I buy out the restricted Australia Command and turn it into an unrestricted command, all of its subordinate units would also become unrestricted. This sounds like a one-click-fixes-all solution but without even opening a saved turn, which I will do after posting] I will wager it is very expensive.

I am not sure whether Aus. Command is permanently restricted or not, but yes, if you do buy out an HQ of any kind all the units reporting directly to it become unrestricted. This is why buying out units to 1 Aus. Corps (which is already unrestricted) and moving them by sea is seen as "gamey" by many players. It saves PPs when they are so precious early on and lets you move by ship Australian units that were historically needed to defend the country itself. Personally, I feel it is OK to use units bought out this way to reinforce Australian bases like Port Moresby, Milne Bay and Horn Island which could be seen as a shield for NE Australia. But moving them to non-Australian bases should require paying full PP by changing their HQ to SWPAC, SOPAC or ABDA or whatever is unrestricted under those.

[Randy Stead]

I'm sure there are a few things that are considered gamey but if the engine lets you use it, why not? I'm still getting my head around the whole political points thing, having a hard time imagining Doug saying to his staff, "A few more days and we'll have the points, boys. I'd like to see particular units assigned to higher HQs as a standard play, such as divisions and other assets assigned to a particular corps. This was done in real life and units were swapped back and forth all the time. But, I did not design the game and I will play it as it is. I'm not complaining, merely making observations. It certainly will not ruin my enjoyment of the game.

[RangerJoe]

Well, meat that is gamey usually has a bad taste to it. [;)]

[Randy Stead]

When my wife cooks the venison my son and I hunt, she will mix it with a bit of pork fat, or mix some cocoa powder with ground venison. There are a few different ways of taking off some of that gamey taste. Gamy tactics, on the other hand...

[RangerJoe]

It is common around here to mix ground pork with venison because the venison is so lean. I have had good venison with no gamey taste - it was corn and apple fed along with acorn mast.[:'(]

[jdsrae]

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

I'm still getting my head around the whole political points thing, having a hard time imagining Doug saying to his staff, "A few more days and we'll have the points, boys.”

I just finished reading this paper on Aussie Generals early war.
If you want a break from reading the manual give it a go!
Australia ends up having an excess of LGENs in game and this paper helps explain why.

Old mate Doug gets a few mentions, including a number of times when his requests for more troops were declined by “Field Marshal” Marshall.
Think of that as Marshall saying, “sorry I don’t have enough PP for you”.
The in game PP system is a pretty good abstraction to force the player to weigh up which theatre gets the reinforcements.

https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu ... 77454x.pdf

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

I'm still getting my head around the whole political points thing, having a hard time imagining Doug saying to his staff, "A few more days and we'll have the points, boys.”

I just finished reading this paper on Aussie Generals early war.
If you want a break from reading the manual give it a go!
Australia ends up having an excess of LGENs in game and this paper helps explain why.

Old mate Doug gets a few mentions, including a number of times when his requests for more troops were declined by “Field Marshal” Marshall.
Think of that as Marshall saying, “sorry I don’t have enough PP for you”.
The in game PP system is a pretty good abstraction to force the player to weigh up which theatre gets the reinforcements.

https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu ... 77454x.pdf

Thank you, I just started to read it.

I can already see from the introduction why the PPs are spent relieving commanders. I do like the quotes so far.

[Randy Stead]

Thanks. I rationalize it in my mind as the PPs being equivalent to favours owed and sustained barrage of pleading and whining. It seems kind of hokey the way it is depicted in the game but it does discipline the player to only "request" what is really needed.

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Try the 7 December start but move Force Z to Batavia. It really was not attacked on 7 December since Admiral Philips was in Manila trying to coordinate actions with the US Asiatic Fleet.

In game turns, Force Z departed Singapore on "Day 1":

1) 8 AM in Honolulu on 12/7 (roughly the time at which the attacks began) is 2 AM in Singapore on 12/8. So that's our baseline.

2) Task Force "Z" departed Singapore harbor at 1710 on 12/8. That's exactly 15 hours and ten minutes after the attack on Pearl Harbor.

3) Add 15 hours and ten minutes to 8 AM Honolulu time and it becomes 11:10 PM (or 2310), which is still 12/7/1941, and thus it's still "Day 1" in Singapore.

In real life time zones matter, but they don't in-game. It's exactly the same time of day at every pixel on the map, which is patently absurd in the real world, but from a game perspective it works fine. The exception is Turn 1, where extrapolations had to be made.

Obviously players can perform in any way they choose, but Force Z was in motion on day 1. That is a fact. Choosing not to use it as a response to the landings in northern Malaya is patently non-historical, and in real life a non-sailing Tom Phllips would have been cashiered the next day. The Allied Player is certainly free to "save" Force Z, but they should expend every single political point they have, right then and there, because nothing could be more unlikely than the British leadership (former First Lord of the Admiralty Winston Churchill in particular) silently accepting cowardice on the part of the Royal Navy.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Kull

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Try the 7 December start but move Force Z to Batavia. It really was not attacked on 7 December since Admiral Philips was in Manila trying to coordinate actions with the US Asiatic Fleet.

In game turns, Force Z departed Singapore on "Day 1":

1) 8 AM in Honolulu on 12/7 (roughly the time at which the attacks began) is 2 AM in Singapore on 12/8. So that's our baseline.

2) Task Force "Z" departed Singapore harbor at 1710 on 12/8. That's exactly 15 hours and ten minutes after the attack on Pearl Harbor.

3) Add 15 hours and ten minutes to 8 AM Honolulu time and it becomes 11:10 PM (or 2310), which is still 12/7/1941, and thus it's still "Day 1" in Singapore.

In real life time zones matter, but they don't in-game. It's exactly the same time of day at every pixel on the map, which is patently absurd in the real world, but from a game perspective it works fine. The exception is Turn 1, where extrapolations had to be made.

Obviously players can perform in any way they choose, but Force Z was in motion on day 1. That is a fact. Choosing not to use it as a response to the landings in northern Malaya is patently non-historical, and in real life a non-sailing Tom Phllips would have been cashiered the next day. The Allied Player is certainly free to "save" Force Z, but they should expend every single political point they have, right then and there, because nothing could be more unlikely than the British leadership (former First Lord of the Admiralty Winston Churchill in particular) silently accepting cowardice on the part of the Royal Navy.

I disagree with that. Remember that the POW did fall back from the battle with the Bismarck and the Eugen.

He would have been falling back to regroup with the US Asiatic Fleet which was at Tarakan and Balikpappen. The AD Black Hawk was to be left at Batavia and at least the four 4 pipers were to join with Force Z. Think if the fleet would have started moving even just a few days prior with the Asiatic Fleet and support ships on a "Fleet Exercise" that were scheduled to return but actually heading to the DEI after some maneuvers for the spies. Consolidating the forces available is a tactic that the British High Command should have understood by that time during the war.

Remember, Force Z had lost their carrier which had run aground so prudence would have been the better course. Even the few fighters on a British carrier could have ruined the day of many of the torpedo bombers. Especially if they had called on the Aussie Buffaloes for help.

Think of Force Z with four extra four pipers, backed up by the Houston, Boise, and the Marblehead plus the other four pipers? Then the Dutch cruisers and destroyers? That would have been a formidable force, even if it was not used where the enemy had air superiority but as a threat to be used which could have slowed the Japanese down.

That would make an interesting mod if the Japanese player did not know about it![:D]

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Kull

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Try the 7 December start but move Force Z to Batavia. It really was not attacked on 7 December since Admiral Philips was in Manila trying to coordinate actions with the US Asiatic Fleet.

In game turns, Force Z departed Singapore on "Day 1":

1) 8 AM in Honolulu on 12/7 (roughly the time at which the attacks began) is 2 AM in Singapore on 12/8. So that's our baseline.

2) Task Force "Z" departed Singapore harbor at 1710 on 12/8. That's exactly 15 hours and ten minutes after the attack on Pearl Harbor.

3) Add 15 hours and ten minutes to 8 AM Honolulu time and it becomes 11:10 PM (or 2310), which is still 12/7/1941, and thus it's still "Day 1" in Singapore.

In real life time zones matter, but they don't in-game. It's exactly the same time of day at every pixel on the map, which is patently absurd in the real world, but from a game perspective it works fine. The exception is Turn 1, where extrapolations had to be made.

Obviously players can perform in any way they choose, but Force Z was in motion on day 1. That is a fact. Choosing not to use it as a response to the landings in northern Malaya is patently non-historical, and in real life a non-sailing Tom Phllips would have been cashiered the next day. The Allied Player is certainly free to "save" Force Z, but they should expend every single political point they have, right then and there, because nothing could be more unlikely than the British leadership (former First Lord of the Admiralty Winston Churchill in particular) silently accepting cowardice on the part of the Royal Navy.

I disagree with that. Remember that the POW did fall back from the battle with the Bismarck and the Eugen.

He would have been falling back to regroup with the US Asiatic Fleet which was at Tarakan and Balikpappen. The AD Black Hawk was to be left at Batavia and at least the four 4 pipers were to join with Force Z. Think if the fleet would have started moving even just a few days prior with the Asiatic Fleet and support ships on a "Fleet Exercise" that were scheduled to return but actually heading to the DEI after some maneuvers for the spies. Consolidating the forces available is a tactic that the British High Command should have understood by that time during the war.

Remember, Force Z had lost their carrier which had run aground so prudence would have been the better course. Even the few fighters on a British carrier could have ruined the day of many of the torpedo bombers. Especially if they had called on the Aussie Buffaloes for help.

Think of Force Z with four extra four pipers, backed up by the Houston, Boise, and the Marblehead plus the other four pipers? Then the Dutch cruisers and destroyers? That would have been a formidable force, even if it was not used where the enemy had air superiority but as a threat to be used which could have slowed the Japanese down.

That would make an interesting mod if the Japanese player did not know about it![:D]

20-20 hindsight. The player is free to do whatever they choose, but on Day 1 Force Z WAS sailing north to take on the Japanese invasion force, not cowering in port or fleeing the area.

[RangerJoe]

Then at least give it the air cover that Force Z thought that they were going to get.

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Then at least give it the air cover that Force Z thought that they were going to get.

Interestingly, it does. I've run a lot of tests which involve run-throughs of the December 7th start, and Force Z gets air support in roughly half of them. Sometimes a few Buffaloes, sometimes a lot, but it does happen.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Kull

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Then at least give it the air cover that Force Z thought that they were going to get.

Interestingly, it does. I've run a lot of tests which involve run-throughs of the December 7th start, and Force Z gets air support in roughly half of them. Sometimes a few Buffaloes, sometimes a lot, but it does happen.

I have never had much of any air support.

Of course, it is also how the first turn is played, if you are allowed to move the already formed TF. I do that and allow certain air units to perform CAP. After all, the Commonwealth was already at war, they say the Japanese TF coming and suspected that they were heading for Malaysia.

Clark put up all fighters on CAP, then they ran low on fuel and landed, then most of them were destroyed on the ground during lunchtime. Five hours after the Pearl Harbor attack. That is the problem with 100% CAP.

[Randy Stead]

I ran the first turn yesterday when my brother was visiting . Force Z some got some air cover. There was even one Japanese attack that failed to get through due to those Buffalos, though by the end of the first turn both ships were damaged.

After some thought and wishing to remedy some of my mistakes and failures to take full advantage of my assets [such as tenders] I have decided to play Guadalcanal again as Allies. I am just beginning turn 7; Lunga and Tulagi were both taken last turn. My ships are all now headed back to port, to reload some supplies and engineer/base force types to get to work on repair and expansion work at both bases. I did use some carrier air power at Tulagi to beef up the assault there, but only the Avenger squadrons from all three carriers using bombs. It was enough to get Tulagi in one shot; in past trials it sometimes took several days.

Whilst trying to get a few extra supplies into Tulagi via a fast transport unit, they ran into an IJN DD and E at night, 0 moonlight. The IJN crossed the T but somehow I came out ahead, two hits on the DD and my ships got away to retreat, no damage.

Over in Australia I am doing much better than the first time, when I foolishly drained away supply from Sydney to send to Noumea. They won't need it if I do a better job this time, and I think I will. As well, I moved all the bombers from Townsville to Sydney for training and so as not to be draining away the supplies that are sent to Townsville. This play through I intend to pay much closer attention to supply and will not fritter it away. For example, I am not wasting supply building up bases that will not be used. Townsville is having its port expanded, but I am not expanding places like Newcastle, for example. I've also moved to Sydney land units that will not be going to New Guinea any time soon. Why bother having them up at Townsville? As and when I have the PPs I will release and LCU and get it over to New Guinea. This is an excellent scenario for learning logistics and I already am benefiting from the lessons I learned from the previous play.