Mr Frag versus Mogami

[Mr.Frag]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/30/41

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Night Air attack on Saigon , at 31,46


Allied aircraft
B-17C Fortress x 8


Allied aircraft losses
B-17C Fortress: 5 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x B-17C Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
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TF 10 troops unloading over beach at Lunga, 67,97


Japanese ground losses:
65 casualties reported


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Ground combat at 49,26

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 13047 troops, 156 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 11653 troops, 81 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 28 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
266 casualties reported
Guns lost 11

Allied ground losses:
106 casualties reported
Guns lost 3


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

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Ground combat at Palembang

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 1475 troops, 39 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 7592 troops, 119 guns, 0 vehicles

[Andy Mac]

Thanks Mogami

Has 17th Indian been in combat as well which would explain low readiness and strength ?

Andy

[mogami]

No They have not moved. I've been trying to get them to build but the required supply only began arriving a turn ago.

[Nikademus]

An interesting gambit but i remain skeptical as to it's chance for anything other than short term success. The Japan player should be able to counter this by reinforcing the already formidable JAAF presence with JNAF units. Judicious use of IJN units and subs should help further the Allied player's opportunity but then again.....a crafty Japan player might just say, "have at it" and allow the Allied player to reinforce Singapore with LCU. It would prolong the struggle but in the end would give the Japan player a chance to bag alot more combat power that will not be able to be used in Burma and other theaters later. If Rangoon falls quickly, escape will be even more unlikley for even the air units.

[Nikademus]

...course if anyone can pull it off....it would probably be mr mega-setup man.....the Mog'ster [;)]

where's my turn BTW? the oil fields are burning.

[Andy Mac]

OK in that case it looks like the game assumes that 17th only has 1 Bde and that the 44th and 45th are either missed entirely or are they perhaps already in Singapore or included in the historical OOB of another Indian division say in Singapore it is very difficult to tell - in any event they werent in Burma historically so it looks like the requisite 3 bdes that were in Burma are there so im reasonably happy.
(Although I think readiness of 17th Division should be higher and that of 48th and 63rd Bdes lower but effect is probably minimal and is debateable in any case)

Andy

[Mr.Frag]

I'm game should Mog want to bring more troops for me to kill, at a 2:1 ratio on VP, anytime he wants to donate some my way for a lost cause is cool [;)]

You really need to think of it this way:

The attacker gets to choose the odds that the fight is held at. All the defender can do is defend. There is *always* more troops available to Japan because they are on the attack. It just becomes an issue of the logistics to move the troops. The more troops moved in to defend an area, the less troops that will be in other areas AND the less troops available after the defended location falls and all the troops surrender.

Troops are finite.

[mogami]

After I throw you out of PI I will have all the troops I need. Now where to get transport?

[Mr.Frag]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/31/41

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TF 10 troops unloading over beach at Lunga, 67,97


Japanese ground losses:
40 casualties reported

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Naval bombardment of Palembang, at 20,55

Allied Ships
DD Piet Hein
DD Van Nes
DD Banckert
DD Van Ghent
DD Kortenaer
DD Evertsen
DD Vampire

Japanese ground losses:
24 casualties reported

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TF 1 encounters mine field at Hong Kong (43,42)

Japanese Ships
MSW W.8
MSW W.7
MSW W.9
MSW W.10
MSW W.11
MSW W.12
MSW W.15
MSW W.16
MSW W.17
MSW W.18
MSW W.19


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Ground combat at Palembang

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 7582 troops, 118 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 3827 troops, 64 guns, 8 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 3)


Japanese ground losses:
588 casualties reported
Guns lost 11

Allied ground losses:
3 casualties reported


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Ground combat at Palembang

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 1509 troops, 37 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 6524 troops, 91 guns, 0 vehicles

[TIMJOT]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Bur Corps Strength on Rangoon/Burma front were

17th Indian Division
with 16th 48th and 63rd Bdes under command with low TOE and limited strength in Bdes and few replacements

The 16th Bgd was an indepenedent Bgd. that was part of Burma Army at the start of the war. It temporarily came under 17th Div. command when that division arrived in Burma in Feb. with only 2 Bgds. 46th & 48th. It was March before 63rd Bgd. could join up with 17th Div. All these Bgds were understrength, includeing the 46th IIRC becuase it had lend part of its TOE to help fill out the other two Bgds.

It points out that Burma Div had a very very low TOE and was very weak in all war fighting equipment and that 17th Indian was not in great shape either equipment wise but was a good well trained formation with TOE for Desert conditions in which they had been extensively training.

That applies to the original 17th Division made up of 44,45,46 Bgds. unfortunately this version of the Division was split up in Nov 41.

So I hate to say it but I suspect WITP is pretty close although I do notice that 63rd and 48th are marked as Ind Bdes which would imply the 44th and 45th Bdes are included in 17th Indian perhaps the st or readiness needs to be nudged a lil higher in this formation but it doesnt really look that wrong to me.

I have to disagree somewhat. IMO its a timing issue. Whereas I agree that a 17th Div. that includes 46,48,63 bgds. should be unready at that start of the game. If thats going to be the case then the 17th being unready should translate to the 44th and 45th Bgds. being represented seperately with fairly high readiness. IMO its incorrect to have both the 17th Div. and the two independent brigades as being substantially unready.

[Andy Mac]

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Bur Corps Strength on Rangoon/Burma front were

17th Indian Division
with 16th 48th and 63rd Bdes under command with low TOE and limited strength in Bdes and few replacements

The 16th Bgd was an indepenedent Bgd. that was part of Burma Army at the start of the war. It temporarily came under 17th Div. command when that division arrived in Burma in Feb. with only 2 Bgds. 46th & 48th. It was March before 63rd Bgd. could join up with 17th Div. All these Bgds were understrength, includeing the 46th IIRC becuase it had lend part of its TOE to help fill out the other two Bgds.

It points out that Burma Div had a very very low TOE and was very weak in all war fighting equipment and that 17th Indian was not in great shape either equipment wise but was a good well trained formation with TOE for Desert conditions in which they had been extensively training.

That applies to the original 17th Division made up of 44,45,46 Bgds. unfortunately this version of the Division was split up in Nov 41.

So I hate to say it but I suspect WITP is pretty close although I do notice that 63rd and 48th are marked as Ind Bdes which would imply the 44th and 45th Bdes are included in 17th Indian perhaps the st or readiness needs to be nudged a lil higher in this formation but it doesnt really look that wrong to me.

I have to disagree somewhat. IMO its a timing issue. Whereas I agree that a 17th Div. that includes 46,48,63 bgds. should be unready at that start of the game. If thats going to be the case then the 17th being unready should translate to the 44th and 45th Bgds. being represented seperately with fairly high readiness. IMO its incorrect to have both the 17th Div. and the two independent brigades as being substantially unready.

OK im a little confused but i think your correct Timjot

16th Independent Bde under command readiness and st should be ok
44th and 45th sent to Singapore acted as Corps troops for 3rd Indian Corps
46th Was part of 17th but was more or less wiped at Sittang ?
48th Ghurka Bde under command by 17th for burma campaign good exp and readiness
63rd Independent Bde under command readiness and strength should be ok

So if the game has 17th Indian and 16th and 63rd as independent then it either has to include seperately 44th and 45th Bdes and then the St and readiness of 17th Indian is ok as is or large increase is required in Strength and Readiness of 17th Indian to allow it to be split into component parts and for 2 Bdes to be sent to Singapore

Andy

[TIMJOT]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Mogami


Hi, OOB error are easy to fix. It appears the 48th and 63rd should be removed. The 17th Left as is (filling out and the 44th and 45th added. Although I'd prefer leaving the 48th and 63rd and having the 17th at 100 percent. (it could be split by the player and this would produce the same result as historic.

Particularily given that any Japan player worth his salt will have naval forces waiting for this reinforcement to arrive. I agree, best to just have the fully intact 17th start the game in port, just as the 18th UK, starts at Karachi, free to be deployed by the Allied player as he sees fit.

Singapore remains a not very viable option because of it's isolation.

I agree on the face of it, the easiest way would be to simply raise the readiness of the 17th Div. and keep 48th and 63rd in the game as is. But to be fair I think the 17th would then have to start the game divided since the 45th Bgd. left Bombay for Singapore on Dec 1,1941 and was at sea when war broke out. Embarked on convoy BM9A (Devonshire, Lancanshire, Ethiopia, Varsova, Rajula ) That way the player would be forced to decided whether to gather up the scattered units to recombine it or send it out piecemeal.

[Andy Mac]

Aye agreed its a tricky one may be better to replace 16th and 63rd with 44th and 45th and relocate to India and raise readiness and st of 17th a little

[Andy Mac]

Or not show 17th at all and show independent Bdes and an HQ unit ?

[TIMJOT]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac


OK im a little confused but i think your correct Timjot

16th Independent Bde under command readiness and st should be ok
44th and 45th sent to Singapore acted as Corps troops for 3rd Indian Corps
46th Was part of 17th but was more or less wiped at Sittang ?
48th Ghurka Bde under command by 17th for burma campaign good exp and readiness
63rd Independent Bde under command readiness and strength should be ok

So if the game has 17th Indian and 16th and 63rd as independent then it either has to include seperately 44th and 45th Bdes and then the St and readiness of 17th Indian is ok as is or large increase is required in Strength and Readiness of 17th Indian to allow it to be split into component parts and for 2 Bdes to be sent to Singapore

Andy

Yup, thats basically it Andy. Confuseing huh? Thats why I begining to think that since the 17th Division was historically in such flux ( 6 different Bgds. assigned to it in a little over a months time ) It should remain in the game as an unready Division at start. The 48th and 63rd Bgds should be dropped and replaced with 44th & 45 indep. Bgds with average readiness. The 16th bgd remains independent as part of Burma Army at game start its historical Dec 7th deployment.

IMO, The 45th should start the game at sea and the 44th in Bombay but it should be up to the player to decide where they end up.

[sven6345789]

any chance for a screenshot of the burma area. Why is it so easy to cut units of in Rangoon?

[Andy Mac]

Aye I agree Timjot although I dont know deployment dates for 44th and 45th Bdes going to Malaya so cannot comment on that aspect.

But I agree that 4 Bdes operatined in Burma under command or attached to 17th Indian in the period of which 46th was fairly weak so low readiness and strength 17th Division (still not convinced it should be as low as it is it had more combat power than a single brigade and only the 46th Bde had been gutted by transfers so I think this needs to be tweaked a little higher than it is) probably covers it with the 44th and 45th (including a lot of the 46ths equipment) should be prepositoned outside Burma.

Andy

[Andy Mac]

Mogami why so many subs in harbour in Singapore ?

Arte they damaged or re arming just seems a little strange to have 7 subs sitting around.

Andy

[Mr.Frag]

[:D]

[TIMJOT]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Aye I agree Timjot although I dont know deployment dates for 44th and 45th Bdes going to Malaya so cannot comment on that aspect.

But I agree that 4 Bdes operatined in Burma under command or attached to 17th Indian in the period of which 46th was fairly weak so low readiness and strength 17th Division (still not convinced it should be as low as it is it had more combat power than a single brigade and only the 46th Bde had been gutted by transfers so I think this needs to be tweaked a little higher than it is) probably covers it with the 44th and 45th (including a lot of the 46ths equipment) should be prepositoned outside Burma.

Andy

You should also take note that the 17th Div starts the war as it should in India. It was not part of Burma Army when war broke out. It needs to be sent there. Thats the delema, Churchill wanted to hijack the vetran 7th Aussie Div., but had to settle for the unready 17th Div.

I believe the reason the 17th starts so weak in the game is because in December it consisted as just the 46th Bgd. By the time it arrived in Burma in Feb it had still only had 2 Bgds 46 & 48th. The 16th cant be counted because it is represented as an independent Bgd. So IMHO starting the Div. on Dec 7th at Bgd. strength and slowly building up to Division strength models the historical situation pretty well.