Anyone here who wants to buy my Game?

[Freddy Fudpucker]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

You guys are building more carriers? Now, will these new ones actually be able to carry aircraft?[:'(]

Don't be silly, you don't think we can afford to build carriers AND planes do you? We used to be the economic powerhouse of the world, now we're a backwater euro-fringe nation ordered about by people in Brussels[:D].

Still, they could always decide to put our taxes up some more so we can afford some new planes[X(].

[Adnan Meshuggi]

sorry if my first post was an offending thing.
my second in german was... true.
Nothing personal about your mother... myself i lost her in the age of 27 (she was 66), she died very slowly at stomach cancer - i not even wish my "aow-friends" such death. So this wasn´t said with knowledge and i want to apologize for that.
But true is also that you are older as 18 and this mean that you have the possibilit to decide for your own.

I agree to the facts that different pricing for digital download are not nice - but again, nobody FORBID you to ignore the game. Honestly i did not care about the price, i knew it was worth the whole thing. If you are a gg fan you know what i mean, since pac war i waited for this game - and this game engine. Sure, you said you had a bad day, but again. If you sound as a kid, repeat this behaviour, you get an answer. But NO, i did never labled you an a##hole or similar, i just made clear that i fear that matrix will loose other customer - not because i want matrix employees can get their third ferrari, but because i want em to make other ww2-games. Eastfront need a "remake". And your comments look like matrix is an non seriously or even criminal company who want to cheat. And if this is wrong, fine and i apologize. But even with a bad day, you could have been more polite (as i could, too).

So i will apologize, but my german comments were a reaction on your post. So please do not switch something here.

And i agree, it should be the same price (PLUS VAT if necessary). But do not bash matrix for it. If they would love to make money, they would produce stupid short term boom boom egoshooter, not games you can play 3 or 4 years.

Oh, i do not want to defend em, it is just my position.
If you have further "problems" with me, you can pm me - no problem.

For this thread i suggest to take the heat out of it.... i will do and again, for your mothers dead, i feel sorry

greetings

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: Hartford688

Hi

I'm the pain in the neck that keeps bringing the VAT thing up on other threads.

Matrix are doing absolutely nothing whatsoever wrong in charging VAT. They have to, and if you are a customer in the EU you are required to pay it.

They do disclose the VAT aspect - and prominently. The only problem I and some others evidently have is the wording is unclear. Something simple like "the price shown does not include VAT. If you live in the EU VAT at 17.5% will be added" would be perfect and no-one could complain.

If you live in the the EU VAT will make buying things 17.5%+ more expensive than for the customers in the US. That is just tough. Not Matrix's fault.

But please make it clear.

One of them anyway... I've mentioned it a few times as well [;)]

Excellent post. Matrix HAVE to charge VAT to European customers. It makes no difference as far as VAT (or die Mehrwertssteuer, or whatever it's called in other countries) which store you order from, as the tax gets billed anyway (I found that out the hard way) - I guess it's done according to your credit card details.

The difference in prices is due, I think, to the need to round to the nearest "-5.99" in whichever currency it is... for some reason those paying in Euros seem to come off badly.

BUT....

were advised by our store (which handles many international orders) that by displaying VAT information and offering a VAT receipt, we were complying with all norms in that regard.

NO. It's the norm for business customers, NOT consumers. They expect the headline price to be VAT inclusive.

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: MG3

Don't blame Matrix for die Mehrwertssteuer, blame your Government. Matrix is also not responsible for currency exchange rates. Welcome to the world economy.

You must think I am stupid or something. I order in the States all the time and never had to pay any "Mehrwertsteuer". Only when the custom thinks you have to pay- you pay. But with an digital download... hardly belivable.

And about the world economy- why I have to pay 25% more (without taxes) then the US people when I DOWNLOAD a game?

@feeboy:

thanks, I know what you mean. I have played many Grigsby/Billings (ironic, that name- hehe) to no end. PACWAR, WIR, BTR...

But I dont think I will enjoy this game for the next few weeks... this VAT/Euro things made me pretty upset- even it is partly my fault, since I didnt read every little letter but only the numbers.

Likely the places you order in US may not be selling properly to you
it depends on laws, it might also matter if a company has a "presence" in Germany or not.

If Does then the company selling has to collect a tax, in the USA
if I order online I don't always pay STATE sales taxes unless the business has an PRESENCE in my state, if it does the company is required to collect MY states Sales tax.

I'm not too familier with VAT but it could be that way, someone more knowledgeable might correct, perhaps all companys that sell to europeans are supposed to collect the VAT but some in USA do not and if so then those you buy from in USA are illegally selling.

You have to also realize it doesn't matter if what buy is a mere download, your buying a product and so if VAT is required to be collected it has to be, if Matrix did business, had presence in my State, they
would be collecting Sales Tax and adding to my "download" order too.

[ravinhood]

Heh, I read about two pages of this and then stopped. All I want to say is, for the 30+ years I have been buying things direct out of state, I've never had to pay "taxes". It was the main reason I bought direct for many years, but, this VAT thing sounds a bit scary and I certainly don't like any hidden fees.

If I see WitP on Amazon.com I may purchase it, if not, oh well, just a lost sale for you guys is all, no biggie eh?

Amazon.com has excellent direct sales, "FREE SHIPPING" along with great savings on many software products from time to time. They even had Korsun Pocket and HTTR for like $34.00 with free shipping last month.

Direct sales is fine, but, direct download sales suxors as far as I'm concerned, the world hasn't changed to DSL or cable just yet, some have, but, dialup is still alive and well and until it's a forced upgrade and the price for DSL and Cable come down to dialup prices per month I'm sticking with $9.95 a month dialup.

Many may have money to burn, probably don't have any savings either, lol. I remember the youthful days of 18-25, spend spend spend, I am immortal, I'll just make more. Well once yah get older and watch both your parents pass into the next demension, you start to realize, hey, my day is coming, I better save some cash, so I can still play games when I retire.

You guys at Matrix and co. may make more $$ overall by direct sales, but, at a cost of losing some of your customers, I guess $$ are the top priority though, so, it doesn't matter how I think or feel about it.

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: grraven2004

Eric,

Living in Washington state I was charged sales tax on my purchase. I knew this going into the transaction, what I didn't know was how much tax was going to be added to my purchase until I clicked the submit button.

I agree that DR should be telling you the total cost BEFORE you submit.

Thanks

Well, anyone in amy state knows their states sales tax pct like if it is 6 pct you simply do a like 69.99 + 6 pct =74.18

Come on now, hand calculators are pratically free, I just grabbed mine and in 10 seconds figured that above out.

If VAT is a standard pct or each european nation has a set VAT pct they tack on, any german etc can calculate right off the VAT that will be added on same as I could calculate any sales tax collected for my particular state, it is no big secret what sales tax rates are.

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: furious

MG3.

Well the small-ish extra fee that us Old Worlders end up paying (and as a Brit I can only consider myself a Euro-ette, not a full fledged European), is but a pittance compared to the amount we are stung for every month by our governments to keep those Brussels Euro-crats in their crocodile skin, gold plated slippers.

On the subject of Tax, it's Ironic that this thread should start mere hours after the anniversery of the biggest tax dodge of all time (1776).

Only kidding my colonial chums, wait until we've finished our two new aircraft carriers and we'll have the tax man stopping by Conneticut to collect a few late payments[:'(]

[&o][:D]

You DO know that the "tax Dodge" wasn't over not paying taxes, it was a revolution due to no representation , us Colonials had no representation
in England of our own and ole georgie and parlie were tacking on taxes without any colonial say on things..

[:'(][:'(][:'(]

[&o]

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

wait until we've finished our two new aircraft carriers

You guys are building more carriers? Now, will these new ones actually be able to carry aircraft?[:'(]

Yeah, REAL ones not those weirdy VTOL thingies that aren't real Planes

[:'(]

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Oh, no. Down toward the end, along came "digital download." It cost the same $69.99, but you got no CD. Moreover, here I sat in the dark, wooded areas where DSL and cable Internet connections have yet to penetrate. Another ten bucks, and I could get a CD shipped, at some indeterminate time in the future, as a "backup." 56k downloads of 466 Mb programs don't have much of a track record for being successful.

To make a short story long, the counter counted off the counting until the counting was done. 26 hours it took (with a couple off for dozing). I had it.

I've never been the same.

[:D][:D][:D]


Thanks for post, it reminded me WHY I got cable

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Frank
So the average European has to pay 84$ for a product an American can buy for 80. So the European is charged more for exactly the same product.

It's the price you pay for the privilege of being European.

[RealChuckB]

And there are probably people out there who think it's a bargain! [;)]

Chuck

[Jcatarino]

I live in Europe.

Any European knows what VAT is, if he doesn´t I don´t know here he has been all his life. We don't like it (in my country it´s 19%) but he have to live with it.

The game is less expensive in the US shop.

Any European knows this is a good time to buy in the US, with the current exchange rate we get a 20% discount in every product. Knowing this and if one only intends to buy a digital download I think it´s obvious that we enter the US and Euro shops to compare prices and see here we can get a better deal.

It´s not very obvious the VAT information but it´s there. I don´t see how an European could miss those 3 letters and check out how much VAT is applied.

US shop $69,99 + 17,5% = $82,23
Euro shop 64,99€ + 17,5% = 76,36€ x 1,21 = $92,39 so you end up paying $10 more if you buy in the Euro store. I don't understand how can someone buy a digital download (no postal fees) in the Euro shop!! Only if he didn't do the math.

I can´t understand also how can an European miss the VAT info (althoug it could be a lot more explicit). The 17,5% is explained there and you would only need to do the math (although the total should be shown before we submit). MG should not be making such a big deal because he missed something that's always been there, he should be doing a little deal because it should me more visible and detailed for those who are in a hurry to get the game.

[Didz]

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

This thread is one hell of a boring waste of time over $10 or $20 US. [>:] Consider the value of time and effort. There are five plus pages of posts that could have gone into the game discussion.

I feel for the guy who thinks he got stiffed but stuff happens.

This issue is way over blown.

I couldn't disagree more with the above statement. Most companies pay huge sums of money to market intelligance agencies for exactly the sort of feedback that this thread is giving Matrix free gratis. It called the Service Quality Loop in this country and its how companies make sure they are perceived by their customers to be providing a good product.

Of course we European's could just keep our opinions to ourselves and take our business elsewhere but I suspect Matrix are quite keen to sell its products in the EU and so have shown a keen interest in the feedback that has been given.

Its a shame our US friends find the subject boring but then I would have to wonder why the hell they are reading a thread about EU sales in the first place. It actually has nothing to do with them.

[Didz]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
AGain and again and AGAIN, EU customers are NOT getting charged ANYTHING extra other than the VAT. The issues is the VAT is not being properly shown on the invoice BEFORE customer acceptance of the charges. In MG3's case he was charged EXACTLY the RIGHT price. We say with currency exchange rates applied his purchase came to $79.95 which is EXACTLY what I paid in the US for the DD and follow on CD....which is EXACTLY what he orders. They then added on the VAT which brought the final total to about $93.00.

Again, the ONLY issue is that the $93.00 is not what showed up when he was asked to click the accept button! But the $93.00 is the RIGHT PRICE for a customer in his location!

So yes, in the EU, the game with the CD is going to run roughly $93.00, and that is the RIGHT price. Nothing extra there at all. And it appears you can sneek around the VAT thing if you want to, but ordering from the US store.....IF you can get an EU bank issued credit card to pass....

As far as I am concerned the point you make is not in dispute.

However, if you look at the example of the EU order form published elsewhere on this thread you will clearly see that it quotes 74.99 EUR's as the TOTAL cost of the purchase and makes no statement suggesting that this price is not VAT inclusive which is the standard legal way of displaying prices in the EU.

If one compares this with the US form, you will see that this form also shows the price of $79.98 as the TOTAL price of the item but then goes on to specifically warn US customers and EU customers that local taxes may be added.

The failing is clearly with the EU order form which was either intended to show the VAT inclusive price but has been incorrectly programmed or has been badly designed in not making it as clear as the US one that the price it quotes is not VAT exclusive.

I would also point out that even ignoring the issue of VAT 74.98 EUR is not the same price as $79.98. At the current exchange rate (Wednesday, July 7, 2004 1 Euro = 1.22940 US Dollar) 74.98 EUR is thus $92.18. So, contrary to your assertion even before another 13.12 EUR VAT is added European customers are being charged $12.20 more for WiTP than their US counterparts.

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

Were do or did we state that we do one to one currency conversions based on the US price tag?

In fact it is very common to base prices on the general prices in a certain country.

If you want examples for that I can give you plenty.

I don't think this is the issue either. European's are used to having to pay more for the same product and US companies have every right to charge us more if they think they can get away with it. I'm not sure Matrix really wants to be classified amongst these companies but if they do, then like you say its up to them.

The only objection I have is being told by US customers that we are paying exactly the same price as they are when clearly we are not.

ORIGINAL: Freddy Fudpucker

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

You guys are building more carriers? Now, will these new ones actually be able to carry aircraft?[:'(]

Don't be silly, you don't think we can afford to build carriers AND planes do you? We used to be the economic powerhouse of the world, now we're a backwater euro-fringe nation ordered about by people in Brussels[:D].

Still, they could always decide to put our taxes up some more so we can afford some new planes[X(].

We had enough money to buy those US helicopters that couldn't take off though didn't we[:D]

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: Didz
Its a shame our US friends find the subject boring but then I would have to wonder why the hell they are reading a thread about EU sales in the first place. It actually has nothing to do with them.

It's a shame you believe Buck Beach represents all your US friends.

The title says (to paraphrase): "Wanna Buy My Game?" That might interest anyone. Then the company that hosts this forum and provided us with a great game gets attacked based on false assumptions. That might interest anyone that's a fan of Matrix games OR a fan of the truth.

Since Matrix is responding positively to the complaint I see no good reason to continue to browbeat them.

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Pasternaski,

That's exactly what happened to me! Well, except for the names and a few other changes, if you talk about me the story's the same one. But mine involved a cranky satellite and GetRight installation that just did not want to start up again after it left off. Took me from Thursday night to Sunday noon to get up and running, but I'm there now and all is forgotten.....

Large downloads, best to pick the time to do it, usually weekends and holiday weekends especially are worst time as internet traffic and bandwidth suffers.

I D/L on Tuesday 2 Am ESt ish, a picked time where assumptions that less traffics online at least in USA, got the d/l in one try , appx 24-25 Mins at avg 350K rate.

I always try to do any large D/L's in an offtime, never on weekends..

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: Bill Durrant

Just my 2p worth:

I think we have a cultural difference here.
Euro against USA
In Europe we have VAT and it is universal. All our displayed prices are inclusive of tax. What you see is what you pay.
I admit to being surprised (and at first thought I was being conned) the first time I bought something in the States as the price came to more than on the display. My seasoned traveller companion kicked me and explained the situation of state tax before I made a fool of myself.
This just doesn't happen in Europe.

So, the Matrix store seems perfectly clear to USA residents - they all expect an extra tax to be added on to a displayed price. The Europeans find this abnormal.

Let me run a few words by you:

Right - back to some great computer wargames worth every penny[:)]

[:D]

Yes us in the States do things different, althrough in some places here you will see signs like "tax included" which means that the price already includes the tax.

For a place founded over tax representation we sure have alot of taxes...

And the "taxable" vs non-taxable probably is harder for europeans to understand, even more, while usually Food is non-taxable you pay tax on food that is Prepared so while buying Raw Chopped meat isn't likely to be taxed (states do vary) a Prepared and cooked "chopped meat burger" at McD's will have tax added to the Food... [:D]

Ahh well as they say... Death and taxes... the sure things

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: Arnir

However, even it it seems unfair, and might be unfair, the same product often sells for different prices in different countries. Just because a Norwegian can buy product X at price y (ignoring taxes) doesn't mean an American can expect to pay price y. Different markets support different prices. Different markets have different costs for the business. I've heard that a lot of software in parts of Asia sells for much less then in NA (and I do mean the legal copies). Doesn't make me happy to pay more, but if the price is fair for my market then I'll pay it.

Asian example:

I play an online game, it was bought by an Asian company, now while for US and Europe the cost is like $50 for 6 months online access, the Chinese can byt 6 months for around $29 The 3 Months is $29 for US/Europe but $15 for asians.

The companys in China and China's Govt probably tells what price they can charge for Chinese, no choice there, so they charge cheap while charge US/Europeans/australians... non Chinese double prices..


If it wasn't an interesting online game I'd not play at a higher price
still even $50/6 mo is 8.33 a month, commonsense way looking at it is I just buy one less Paperback a month (at $6-7) Or One less Pizza each month [:D][:D][:D]

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: Didz

BTW: One reason I haven't purchased this game yet, and may not, is that its digital download. And as MG3 quite rightly points out without gaining physical ownership of the product one cannot return it or sell it on if not satisfied.

Actually it is Digital and also CD, I ordered, I paid for Digital download plus 9.99 for a CD, unless not yet CD for europe, you can get it on CD... just need pay $10

And its not that unreasonable, Companys have charged
a fee for a "backup" even when I bought CD's before burners were cheap, you were at times able get a backup copy of software for a nominal, usually $10 fee.

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: Xargun

The major difference is that the US currently does not charge sales tax on online purchases - unless it is being shipped within the same state. Same thing when you order things over the phone - if you live out of state - no sales tax.. within the state - sales tax. For us Americans its simple and been this way for.. uhm... well as long as I can remember (30 years).

Also, the average US sales tax is 6% when compared to 17.5% VAT - almost 3 times as much.. So actually the game is cheaper for Europeans, but their government takes a much larger chunk than the US government does - thus higher price. The screens I saw from Matrix made sense - from an AMERICAN VIEW as I always look for the tax.. If you are used to having the tax included you probably didn't even look twice for it... Not anyones fault really - just a difference in tax collection practices...


Xargun

A bit incorrect, State sales tax is applied if a business is outside the state, but has a presence in a state, Gateway comes to mind, until they put a presence in my state, I could have ordered a PC tax free online from them but once they had a presence , as simple as an office in my state they had to collect state tax.

So just cause the Main headquarters/place order from is outside your state doesn't necessary mean your not going to pay sales tax.