Anyone here who wants to buy my Game?

[Faker than Hollywood]

blame your Government

You ain't seen nothin yet-- wait 'till the UN enacts GLOBAL COMMONS TAXATION and see what that adds to your 0101010101...

[frank1970]

OK MG3, you haven´t answered my pm, you haven´t answered my üposting, therefore I think you are so much satisfied with the game you will not sell it?

[Didz]

ORIGINAL: mjk428

ORIGINAL: Didz
Its a shame our US friends find the subject boring but then I would have to wonder why the hell they are reading a thread about EU sales in the first place. It actually has nothing to do with them.

It's a shame you believe Buck Beach represents all your US friends.

The title says (to paraphrase): "Wanna Buy My Game?" That might interest anyone. Then the company that hosts this forum and provided us with a great game gets attacked based on false assumptions. That might interest anyone that's a fan of Matrix games OR a fan of the truth.

Since Matrix is responding positively to the complaint I see no good reason to continue to browbeat them.

They are not false, and Matrix is not being attacked. This thread is highlighting a serious anomaly in the DR's EU order process and we Europeans are raising the issue with Matrix so it can be addressed.

Matrix are in fact dealing with it but whilst they are dealing with a perfectly valid complaint we are having to deal with a bunch of bored american's who don't seem able to grasp the nature of the problem but seem to consider themselves duty bound to have an opinion anyway.

[Marc von Martial]

There have been a whole lot of false assumptions in this thread.

Now can we please stop what is developing slow but steady into a EU vs. US flame war?

[Jonathan Palfrey]

Surely the best practice when selling any product is to show the customer the price excluding tax AND the price including tax before he agrees to pay.

This shouldn't be difficult to do, and it minimizes any subsequent confusion and bad feeling.

It's not uncommon for a shop to show only the price excluding tax, and then slap the tax on top of it later; but I always feel this is less than honest and doesn't give me a good feeling about the shop.

From the customer's point of view, the price of a product is what he has to pay for it. If he has to pay tax, and you don't include the tax in the price, you're giving misleading information. Even if you warn in the small print that some tax is due.

Of course it would be nice if we didn't have to pay tax at all, but unfortunately we've already given so much money to governments that they can afford to employ lots of well-armed men in case we need any persuasion to carry on paying...

[frank1970]

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

There have been a whole lot of false assumptions in this thread.

Now can we please stop what is developing slow but steady into a EU vs. US flame war?

SIR, YES SIR!

[ravinhood]

I really think the best way in all fairness to their Euro customers, is for Matrix to find a way for them to purchase their games without having to pay "any" taxes, just shipping and handling fees.

I don't like to see people over taxed and having to pay one tax and then a VAT tax on top of that is just imperialism to me.

So there yah go guys & gals (if any) at Matrix, find a way to sell your games to our foreign friends without them having to pay any tax or at least that VAT tax.

[Didz]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
I really think the best way in all fairness to their Euro customers, is for Matrix to find a way for them to purchase their games without having to pay "any" taxes, just shipping and handling fees.

Nice as that might be, I'm afraid its just not feasible. Even though Matrix do not add the VAT to the price on their US site the VAT will be added and charged upon delivery of the package in the EU. As has been demonstrated by the recent delivery of my 'War & Peace' film from Amazon.com. (see my thread Delivery charges to EU states)

The only way to avoid attracting VAT is to lie about the content of the package (either deliberately under valuing it or marking it as a gift) and nobody can expect Matrix to do that.

Where Matrix could act is in the choice of its shipping agents (if it turns out that the ones they are using are rip-off artists) or by splitting the purchase of CD back-ups from the digital download price. The $9.99 CD Back-up cost is below the import duty theshold for the EU and thus would not attract duty, whereas if the total order value is quoted it attracts duty on not just the back-up disk but the full game cost, even though in theory that was delivered electronically.

Mind you as Jeff just noted on my other thread, there is nothing to stop us Europeans making our own back-up copies of the game and not buying the CD back-ups from Matrix. Thereby, not triggerring the Import Duty process.

Personally, I don't mind paying the VAT. But I do object to paying arbitary Clearance Fee's added by the shipping agent without my consent and I do object ot not being given an accurate order cost before placing the order.

If Matrix can sort those two issues out I don't think there would be any further cause for complaint.

[wodin]

Matrix are selling their games at prices which normally include VAT when you buy them from a shop.

Did MAtrix research how much games are sold for in shops in the UK i.e 29.99 upto 39.99 and then forget that the VAT is already added to these prices?

Really your games, to not P~~S so many people off should be sold for either 29.99 upto £39.99 with VAT already included. This I feel is the main gripe. No one in the UK has ever gone in to a shop bought a game with a price sticker of 39.99 and then be charged more at the counter. Doesnt happen.

Yes your games are worth the extra money but no one likes to feel they have been cheated.

[v Manstein]

In this case, as an EU citizen, I will order this game and enter any valid US postal address. Thit means I can avoid being overtaxed. If it is only the download I need, I won't have any trouble!!!

[RealChuckB]

Then you might (I don't know exactly about the DR store) run into the problem, that for US customers the billing address of the credit card has to match the "delivery" address you use, because US credit cards are normally set up this way. This will lead to your credit card payment getting rejected by the system.
Again, I am not sure how the DR system handles this.

Chuck

[v Manstein]

Really?

RolandRahn stated (page2) that he ordered it via the US shop and he didn't run into any trouble. He lives in Germany.

Well, I guess I can try it and if it doensn't work, I will find out.

alex

[RealChuckB]

Well, someone might try it, someday ... [;)]

Often, this cross check is only used for high value purchases as an additional fraud check (And this it NOT saying that Matrixgames' products are NOT high value in themselves ... [:D])

Chuck

[RealChuckB]

ORIGINAL: Didz

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
I really think the best way in all fairness to their Euro customers, is for Matrix to find a way for them to purchase their games without having to pay "any" taxes, just shipping and handling fees.

Nice as that might be, I'm afraid its just not feasible. Even though Matrix do not add the VAT to the price on their US site the VAT will be added and charged upon delivery of the package in the EU. As has been demonstrated by the recent delivery of my 'War & Peace' film from Amazon.com. (see my thread Delivery charges to EU states)

The only way to avoid attracting VAT is to lie about the content of the package (either deliberately under valuing it or marking it as a gift) and nobody can expect Matrix to do that.

Where Matrix could act is in the choice of its shipping agents (if it turns out that the ones they are using are rip-off artists) or by splitting the purchase of CD back-ups from the digital download price. The $9.99 CD Back-up cost is below the import duty theshold for the EU and thus would not attract duty, whereas if the total order value is quoted it attracts duty on not just the back-up disk but the full game cost, even though in theory that was delivered electronically.

Mind you as Jeff just noted on my other thread, there is nothing to stop us Europeans making our own back-up copies of the game and not buying the CD back-ups from Matrix. Thereby, not triggerring the Import Duty process.

Personally, I don't mind paying the VAT. But I do object to paying arbitary Clearance Fee's added by the shipping agent without my consent and I do object ot not being given an accurate order cost before placing the order.

If Matrix can sort those two issues out I don't think there would be any further cause for complaint.

Didz,

I think you are right. The interesting thing in this thread is, that the almost all the people who complain about the VAT itself, don't have to pay it. The people from the EU who have to pay it, normally don't complain about the fact that they have to pay it, but the way it is handled in the DR store ... interesting [:)]

And I totally agree with your point about giving this feedback to Matrixgames (if it is done in a informative and civilized manner) because their response shows, that they DO want to know about this, because we are all their (prospective) customers.

I am 100% sure that Matrixgames will address this issue in their upcoming discussions with DR in a way that it the most favorable for us, because these guys care about us.

Personally, what I find quite sad is, that although the flaws --that unquestionably exist in the DR system and that are generally known for a long time (DR's probably biggest customer is Symantec, in the same problems plague this shop for a log time now)-- DR's customer, Matrixgames and their customers (us) have to suffer for this and people seem to turn away from buying Matrixgames' products because of this, which is bad for all of us.

Chuck

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: Chuck B.

I think you are right. The interesting thing in this thread is, that the almost all the people who complain about the VAT itself, don't have to pay it. The people from the EU who have to pay it, normally don't complain about the fact that they have to pay it, but the way it is handled in the DR store ... interesting [:)]

Quite true.

The reason is that to Euros, VAT isn't some sort of "extra" to be thought of in the same way as shipping costs, or indeed an import/export tax. It's a mainstream tax, and you pay it without thinking about it. Nobody would want to pay 17.5% (or whatever) "extra" but the simple fact is that if our governments didn't get the money from us that way they would just stick it on income tax instead.

VAT is actually a very equitable tax. It is not charged on "essentials" such as (uncooked) food and water supplies. In the UK at least it is charged at a much reduced rate on electricity and gas supplies to domestic customers. Unlike income tax, you can in that respect "choose" whether you pay it or not. I only mention all this at the risk of boring everybody stupid because there is a school, with which I have some sympathy, who believe VAT at an increased rate should actually replace income tax, and any local equivalents, in it's entirety. That isn't just a "Euro" thing either... it's just as applicable to the US or anywhere else.

[Belisarius]

ORIGINAL: Hertston

ORIGINAL: Chuck B.

I think you are right. The interesting thing in this thread is, that the almost all the people who complain about the VAT itself, don't have to pay it. The people from the EU who have to pay it, normally don't complain about the fact that they have to pay it, but the way it is handled in the DR store ... interesting [:)]

Quite true.

The reason is that to Euros, VAT isn't some sort of "extra" to be thought of in the same way as shipping costs, or indeed an import/export tax. It's a mainstream tax, and you pay it without thinking about it. Nobody would want to pay 17.5% (or whatever) "extra" but the simple fact is that if our governments didn't get the money from us that way they would just stick it on income tax instead.

VAT is actually a very equitable tax. It is not charged on "essentials" such as (uncooked) food and water supplies. In the UK at least it is charged at a much reduced rate on electricity and gas supplies to domestic customers. Unlike income tax, you can in that respect "choose" whether you pay it or not. I only mention all this at the risk of boring everybody stupid is because there is a school, with which I have some sympathy, who believe VAT at an increased rate should actually replace income tax, and any local equivalents, in it's entirety. That isn't just a "Euro" thing either... it's just as applicable to the US or anywhere else.

Hertston,

You're welcome to see the VAT system in Sweden (aka "moms");

25% on EVERYTHING, with the following exceptions:

books, travels, services and admittance tickets: 6% (level 2)
food: 12% (level 1)

and get this; there are EXTRA taxes on alcohol, gasoline, and other such "luxuries"...

Considering we pay a 28%-33% (and over) income tax to start with, it's fun to see that up to 60% of your net pay ends up in the Government's pockets anyway. w00t. [8|]

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Palfrey

Surely the best practice when selling any product is to show the customer the price excluding tax AND the price including tax before he agrees to pay.

This shouldn't be difficult to do, and it minimizes any subsequent confusion and bad feeling.

It's not uncommon for a shop to show only the price excluding tax, and then slap the tax on top of it later; but I always feel this is less than honest and doesn't give me a good feeling about the shop.

From the customer's point of view, the price of a product is what he has to pay for it. If he has to pay tax, and you don't include the tax in the price, you're giving misleading information. Even if you warn in the small print that some tax is due.

Of course it would be nice if we didn't have to pay tax at all, but unfortunately we've already given so much money to governments that they can afford to employ lots of well-armed men in case we need any persuasion to carry on paying...

Well yes, before hit an confirm order to actually make the order and the credit transaction, the total of what you will be charged should be upfront, unless, and it can be possiable, the shipping/handling can change from whayt might be an estimate, however the price and any known taxes applied shold be in the total your going to be actually charged for plus the usually ESTIMATED shipping.

As its been pointed out theres a culture difference where in USa and some other places, tax is added after he total, so I go in a Walmart and gran a priced 5.49 DVD movie I'll at checkout get the Tax added and actually pay more then the 5.49 price.

Many online stores do give the total you will be charged at the point you would hit confirm and submit your credit card info.

If for some reason, DR needs the credit card number to verify
if buyer really is not in europe, then a submit that and a second confirm with actual total to finally process the order might be in line.

I'm sure Matrix will bring it up with DR about the way the full total is presented before final order confirm and order executed occurs.

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: Belisarius

and get this; there are EXTRA taxes on alcohol, gasoline, and other such "luxuries"...

Yup, so do we on alcohol, tobacco and gasoline. The tobacco tax in particular is so high, it's estimated something like a third of cigarettes smoked here are either bought in abroad (France or Spain, usually) or smuggled in. It's the hypocrisy that's most annoying - the government always trying to balance persuading people to quit (allegedly) against billions in revenue (certainly). All it results in is nobody giving up, and the poor (smoking levels are much higher in the lowest earnings groups) getting poorer.

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

I really think the best way in all fairness to their Euro customers, is for Matrix to find a way for them to purchase their games without having to pay "any" taxes, just shipping and handling fees.

I don't like to see people over taxed and having to pay one tax and then a VAT tax on top of that is just imperialism to me.

So there yah go guys & gals (if any) at Matrix, find a way to sell your games to our foreign friends without them having to pay any tax or at least that VAT tax.

Can't be done, if legally a tax is to be paid and it is not collected then Matrix would or DR would end up getting it collected off of them.

Remember the 2 Truths of life: Death and Taxes or to be correct taxes and death and more taxes (since your Estate is taxed after death

[:'(] )

Even in the "states" as we are reffered to, state sales taxes for other states are collected if the business is construed as doing business in the buyers state, the move on thats being fought is for all states taxes to be collected no matter where buyer is...the politicans way out and greed for monies to pay for govt needs while cutting their taxes to their rich buddies [&o][&o][:-]

So its a bad idea to try not to pay proper taxes your obligated to paying...

God help the USA if a VAT tax of 15 pct up gets ever put up... bad enough we pay an Income tax [:'(]

[wodin]

We have income tax aswell as VAT.