USCG Flower class Corvettes!!!

[spence]

Below from USCG Historian website re River Class Frigates (built in US shipyards though) serving with CG crews:

The apparently insatiable demand for anti-submarine vessels in 1942 led the Navy to utilize merchant shipyards for their construction. These yards were not thought capable of building ships such as DEs to naval standards, so the British River-class frigate design, similar to the DEs, was modified for American construction techniques. Shipyards in California and on the Great Lakes received contracts for 69 of these ships in 1942; ultimately, 96 were built, 21 of which were transferred to the Royal Navy. They were laid down as gunboats (PG) and later redesignated frigates (PF) - the frequently used term patrol frigate is erroneous, based on the mistaken assumption that each letter in the designation must stand for a word.

Actually, PF simply indicated that frigates were vessels of the patrol type, as opposed to the DEs, which, built to naval standards and most carrying torpedo tubes, were destroyer type ships. The frigate program was plagued by delays; only 12 had been completed before the end of 1943, by which time more than 200 DEs were in commission and the Allies were winning the Battle of the Atlantic. Thus, the Coast Guard was made responsible for manning 75 of the no longer essential frigates. Only two Canadian-built River-class vessels had Navy crews. After the frigates were completed, their entry into service was often delayed by alignment problems with their triple-expansion reciprocating engines. Some had their main engines rebuilt after failing trials or during post-shakedown availability.

The first frigates

The California-built frigates were ready first. Eighteen of them reported to the 7th Fleet in the Southwest Pacific in 1944, where they were joined by four of their Great Lakes sisters. For the remainder of the year, they escorted convoys, made anti-submarine patrols, and occasionally provided fire support for American and Australian troops advancing westward along the northern coast of New Guinea and landing on islands offshore.

The USSs Bisbee (left) and Gallup put rangers ashore on islands in the approaches to Leyte Gulf at the beginning of the Philippines invasion, and eight of their sister ships were among the escorts that brought the first reinforcement convoys to Leyte. The frigates were detached for duty elsewhere early in 1945 when faster steam-powered DEs with more effective armament joined the 7th Fleet. The remaining 12 California-built ships performed training and patrol duties in Alaskan waters and the eastern Pacific.

Most of the Great Lakes frigates served in the Atlantic, a number escorting convoys to and from the Mediterranean. Several operated temporarily with task groups investigating reported U-boat activity, and on one such mission the USS Moberly shared credit with a Navy DE for the destruction of the U-853 off Narragansett Bay in May 1945. By that time, many of the frigates were being converted for weather-patrol duty, for which they were quite suitable because of their endurance and sea kindliness - they were much more comfortable in a seaway than DEs. The conversion involved the replacement of the after three-inch gun by a small deckhouse for inflating weather balloons. Forty-four of the ships were so fitted, manning weather stations in both the Atlantic and Pacific.

Those serving in the Atlantic after VE Day had their decks and bridge structures painted bright yellow to make them more readily visible to aircraft on transatlantic flights, a form of reverse camouflage that did little for the ships' appearance.

World War II nears an end

The apparently insatiable demand for anti-submarine vessels in 1942 led the Navy to utilize merchant shipyards for their construction. These yards were not thought capable of building ships such as DEs to naval standards, so the British River-class frigate design, similar to the DEs, was modified for American construction techniques. Shipyards in California and on the Great Lakes received contracts for 69 of these ships in 1942; ultimately, 96 were built, 21 of which were transferred to the Royal Navy. They were laid down as gunboats (PG) and later redesignated frigates (PF) - the frequently used term patrol frigate is erroneous, based on the mistaken assumption that each letter in the designation must stand for a word.

Actually, PF simply indicated that frigates were vessels of the patrol type, as opposed to the DEs, which, built to naval standards and most carrying torpedo tubes, were destroyer type ships. The frigate program was plagued by delays; only 12 had been completed before the end of 1943, by which time more than 200 DEs were in commission and the Allies were winning the Battle of the Atlantic. Thus, the Coast Guard was made responsible for manning 75 of the no longer essential frigates. Only two Canadian-built River-class vessels had Navy crews. After the frigates were completed, their entry into service was often delayed by alignment problems with their triple-expansion reciprocating engines. Some had their main engines rebuilt after failing trials or during post-shakedown availability.

The first frigates

The California-built frigates were ready first. Eighteen of them reported to the 7th Fleet in the Southwest Pacific in 1944, where they were joined by four of their Great Lakes sisters. For the remainder of the year, they escorted convoys, made anti-submarine patrols, and occasionally provided fire support for American and Australian troops advancing westward along the northern coast of New Guinea and landing on islands offshore.

The USSs Bisbee (left) and Gallup put rangers ashore on islands in the approaches to Leyte Gulf at the beginning of the Philippines invasion, and eight of their sister ships were among the escorts that brought the first reinforcement convoys to Leyte. The frigates were detached for duty elsewhere early in 1945 when faster steam-powered DEs with more effective armament joined the 7th Fleet. The remaining 12 California-built ships performed training and patrol duties in Alaskan waters and the eastern Pacific.

Most of the Great Lakes frigates served in the Atlantic, a number escorting convoys to and from the Mediterranean. Several operated temporarily with task groups investigating reported U-boat activity, and on one such mission the USS Moberly shared credit with a Navy DE for the destruction of the U-853 off Narragansett Bay in May 1945. By that time, many of the frigates were being converted for weather-patrol duty, for which they were quite suitable because of their endurance and sea kindliness - they were much more comfortable in a seaway than DEs. The conversion involved the replacement of the after three-inch gun by a small deckhouse for inflating weather balloons. Forty-four of the ships were so fitted, manning weather stations in both the Atlantic and Pacific.

Those serving in the Atlantic after VE Day had their decks and bridge structures painted bright yellow to make them more readily visible to aircraft on transatlantic flights, a form of reverse camouflage that did little for the ships' appearance.

World War II nears an end

As the war in Europe neared its end, many of the escort vessels flying American colors were clearly superfluous. Twenty-eight of the frigates were made available for Lend-Lease transfer to the then Soviet Union in the spring of 1945. During pre-transfer overhauls, these ships had their most sophisticated equipment replaced by more primitive gear, after which they steamed to Cold Bay, Alaska. There the Coast Guard crews spent several weeks training their Russian replacements. The frigates hoisted their Soviet flags in July and August of 1945.

It also says later in the same section (The Coast Guard at War) that the USCG manned 8 of the Flower Class corvettes and operated them in the Atlantic but doesn't name them all.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

From the 2nd link I provided above in this thread, some of the Flower class (Canadian) were in the PTO.
Seems it was dependent on where they were built and the west coast ships came out of Vancouver.

That was my assumption. When doing the two ship unit review, I assumed that Vancouver built ships served on the West Coast.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: spence

Below from USCG Historian website re River Class Frigates (built in US shipyards though) serving with CG crews:

The apparently insatiable demand for anti-submarine vessels in 1942 led the Navy to utilize merchant shipyards for their construction. These yards were not thought capable of building ships such as DEs to naval standards, so the British River-class frigate design, similar to the DEs, was modified for American construction techniques. Shipyards in California and on the Great Lakes received contracts for 69 of these ships in 1942; ultimately, 96 were built, 21 of which were transferred to the Royal Navy. They were laid down as gunboats (PG) and later redesignated frigates (PF) - the frequently used term patrol frigate is erroneous, based on the mistaken assumption that each letter in the designation must stand for a word.

Actually, PF simply indicated that frigates were vessels of the patrol type, as opposed to the DEs, which, built to naval standards and most carrying torpedo tubes, were destroyer type ships. The frigate program was plagued by delays; only 12 had been completed before the end of 1943, by which time more than 200 DEs were in commission and the Allies were winning the Battle of the Atlantic. Thus, the Coast Guard was made responsible for manning 75 of the no longer essential frigates. Only two Canadian-built River-class vessels had Navy crews. After the frigates were completed, their entry into service was often delayed by alignment problems with their triple-expansion reciprocating engines. Some had their main engines rebuilt after failing trials or during post-shakedown availability.

The first frigates

The California-built frigates were ready first. Eighteen of them reported to the 7th Fleet in the Southwest Pacific in 1944, where they were joined by four of their Great Lakes sisters. For the remainder of the year, they escorted convoys, made anti-submarine patrols, and occasionally provided fire support for American and Australian troops advancing westward along the northern coast of New Guinea and landing on islands offshore.

The USSs Bisbee (left) and Gallup put rangers ashore on islands in the approaches to Leyte Gulf at the beginning of the Philippines invasion, and eight of their sister ships were among the escorts that brought the first reinforcement convoys to Leyte. The frigates were detached for duty elsewhere early in 1945 when faster steam-powered DEs with more effective armament joined the 7th Fleet. The remaining 12 California-built ships performed training and patrol duties in Alaskan waters and the eastern Pacific.

Most of the Great Lakes frigates served in the Atlantic, a number escorting convoys to and from the Mediterranean. Several operated temporarily with task groups investigating reported U-boat activity, and on one such mission the USS Moberly shared credit with a Navy DE for the destruction of the U-853 off Narragansett Bay in May 1945. By that time, many of the frigates were being converted for weather-patrol duty, for which they were quite suitable because of their endurance and sea kindliness - they were much more comfortable in a seaway than DEs. The conversion involved the replacement of the after three-inch gun by a small deckhouse for inflating weather balloons. Forty-four of the ships were so fitted, manning weather stations in both the Atlantic and Pacific.

Those serving in the Atlantic after VE Day had their decks and bridge structures painted bright yellow to make them more readily visible to aircraft on transatlantic flights, a form of reverse camouflage that did little for the ships' appearance.

World War II nears an end

The apparently insatiable demand for anti-submarine vessels in 1942 led the Navy to utilize merchant shipyards for their construction. These yards were not thought capable of building ships such as DEs to naval standards, so the British River-class frigate design, similar to the DEs, was modified for American construction techniques. Shipyards in California and on the Great Lakes received contracts for 69 of these ships in 1942; ultimately, 96 were built, 21 of which were transferred to the Royal Navy. They were laid down as gunboats (PG) and later redesignated frigates (PF) - the frequently used term patrol frigate is erroneous, based on the mistaken assumption that each letter in the designation must stand for a word.

Actually, PF simply indicated that frigates were vessels of the patrol type, as opposed to the DEs, which, built to naval standards and most carrying torpedo tubes, were destroyer type ships. The frigate program was plagued by delays; only 12 had been completed before the end of 1943, by which time more than 200 DEs were in commission and the Allies were winning the Battle of the Atlantic. Thus, the Coast Guard was made responsible for manning 75 of the no longer essential frigates. Only two Canadian-built River-class vessels had Navy crews. After the frigates were completed, their entry into service was often delayed by alignment problems with their triple-expansion reciprocating engines. Some had their main engines rebuilt after failing trials or during post-shakedown availability.

The first frigates

The California-built frigates were ready first. Eighteen of them reported to the 7th Fleet in the Southwest Pacific in 1944, where they were joined by four of their Great Lakes sisters. For the remainder of the year, they escorted convoys, made anti-submarine patrols, and occasionally provided fire support for American and Australian troops advancing westward along the northern coast of New Guinea and landing on islands offshore.

The USSs Bisbee (left) and Gallup put rangers ashore on islands in the approaches to Leyte Gulf at the beginning of the Philippines invasion, and eight of their sister ships were among the escorts that brought the first reinforcement convoys to Leyte. The frigates were detached for duty elsewhere early in 1945 when faster steam-powered DEs with more effective armament joined the 7th Fleet. The remaining 12 California-built ships performed training and patrol duties in Alaskan waters and the eastern Pacific.

Most of the Great Lakes frigates served in the Atlantic, a number escorting convoys to and from the Mediterranean. Several operated temporarily with task groups investigating reported U-boat activity, and on one such mission the USS Moberly shared credit with a Navy DE for the destruction of the U-853 off Narragansett Bay in May 1945. By that time, many of the frigates were being converted for weather-patrol duty, for which they were quite suitable because of their endurance and sea kindliness - they were much more comfortable in a seaway than DEs. The conversion involved the replacement of the after three-inch gun by a small deckhouse for inflating weather balloons. Forty-four of the ships were so fitted, manning weather stations in both the Atlantic and Pacific.

Those serving in the Atlantic after VE Day had their decks and bridge structures painted bright yellow to make them more readily visible to aircraft on transatlantic flights, a form of reverse camouflage that did little for the ships' appearance.

World War II nears an end

As the war in Europe neared its end, many of the escort vessels flying American colors were clearly superfluous. Twenty-eight of the frigates were made available for Lend-Lease transfer to the then Soviet Union in the spring of 1945. During pre-transfer overhauls, these ships had their most sophisticated equipment replaced by more primitive gear, after which they steamed to Cold Bay, Alaska. There the Coast Guard crews spent several weeks training their Russian replacements. The frigates hoisted their Soviet flags in July and August of 1945.

It also says later in the same section (The Coast Guard at War) that the USCG manned 8 of the Flower Class corvettes and operated them in the Atlantic but doesn't name them all.

Generally very well done. But most DEs didn't have torpedo tubes - or 5 inch guns - although most were designed that way. Indeed, most were designed to have twice the installed horsepower - and 3 extra knots of speed. But in the event, most were built with twin 3 inch replaceing single 5 inch mountings, and half the designed speed. Some classes were built with the 5 inch guns - and torpedo tubes - but if memory serves none had the full machinery/speed.

And serving with 7th Fleet implies PTO service to me! Maybe we don't have to worry about these little guys after all?

[spence]

Generally very well done. But most DEs didn't have torpedo tubes - or 5 inch guns - although most were designed that way. Indeed, most were designed to have twice the installed horsepower - and 3 extra knots of speed. But in the event, most were built with twin 3 inch replaceing single 5 inch mountings, and half the designed speed. Some classes were built with the 5 inch guns - and torpedo tubes - but if memory serves none had the full machinery/speed.

And serving with 7th Fleet implies PTO service to me! Maybe we don't have to worry about these little guys after all?

Not sure you read the post carefully enough Cid. I posted it simply because it indicated a 'foreign' ship class (UK River Class Frigates only slightly modified) flying the Stars and Stripes and manned by the USCG many of which did serve in the Pacific. The other little tidbit of interest to modders perhaps is that 16 of these ex-UK, ex-USN, ex-USCG ships ended the war (July&Aug 45) flying the hammer and sickle in the Soviet Pacific Fleet.

[witpqs]

I also scanned the RHS database once and only found non-US Flower class ships.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: spence

Generally very well done. But most DEs didn't have torpedo tubes - or 5 inch guns - although most were designed that way. Indeed, most were designed to have twice the installed horsepower - and 3 extra knots of speed. But in the event, most were built with twin 3 inch replaceing single 5 inch mountings, and half the designed speed. Some classes were built with the 5 inch guns - and torpedo tubes - but if memory serves none had the full machinery/speed.

And serving with 7th Fleet implies PTO service to me! Maybe we don't have to worry about these little guys after all?

Not sure you read the post carefully enough Cid. I posted it simply because it indicated a 'foreign' ship class (UK River Class Frigates only slightly modified) flying the Stars and Stripes and manned by the USCG many of which did serve in the Pacific. The other little tidbit of interest to modders perhaps is that 16 of these ex-UK, ex-USN, ex-USCG ships ended the war (July&Aug 45) flying the hammer and sickle in the Soviet Pacific Fleet.

There are several sub threads here. It was alleged RHS had US Flowers in the data set - and it may have - but seems not to have now. Also there was some question about foreign Flowers being PTO? We do have Soviet sub chasers, but I don't think we have any frigates. They don't seem to be in my listing - got some names, dates, former designations, etc?

[witpqs]

Sid,

Without recalling the names, there are Canadian, (I think) British, and perhaps even Australian (I just don't recall for sure) Flowers in RHS.

[el cid again]

I think there also might be RIN and New Zealand - and in Level 7 South African ones. There are certainly frigates.
And they are cousins if not actually Flowers.

[spence]

Here is a link to the history of one of the River Class Frigates (UK design) that was a USN ship manned by the USCG (and may have sunk the I-12 in late 1944 therefore obviously serving in the PTO) which was turned over to the USSR where it was put into service with the Soviet Pacific Fleet.

http://www.uscg.mil/history/webcutters/ ... kford.html

There were apparently 16 such ships (haven't searched the CG data base yet though)

[spence]

Here is a picture of one of the USCG River Class such as Rochford.

This is the USS Allentown which arrived in Finschafen, New Guinea on 9/29/44 for service with 7th Fleet. It later was transferred to the Soviet Navy on 7/13/45 where it served as the EK-9.

Of note is that all advanced gear was removed and more primitive gear installed (imagine that) prior to service with the Soviet Fleet.



Some other "cutters" transferred to the Soviet Navy after service in the Pacific with USCG crews were:
BATH --- EK-29 from 7/13/45
BAYONNE ---EK-25 from 9/02/45
BELFAST --- EK-3 from 7/12/45
BISBEE --- EK-17 from 8/26/45
BURLINGTON --- EK-21 from 8/27/45
CARSON CITY --- EK-20 from 8/29/45
CHARLOTTESVILLE --- EK-1 from 7/13/45

The transfers to the Soviets seem to have occurred in Cold Bay or Dutch Harbor, AK

[el cid again]

These might be represented by class 1590 in RHS - SC201 class sub chasers - all lend lease - all appearing at Nome Alaska so they must complete the journey to the USSR at risk of interception by Japanese forces.

[spence]

Takes a look at the specs for the Rockford earlier provided. Much larger (100 ft longer) than a Flower Class or any SC with much heavier ASW and AAA armament.
Looking through the CG Historian website I counted around 25 of these ships serving in the PTO with CG crews in addition to the ones named earlier. 15 of that 25 transferred to the Soviet Navy. Most of the CG "River Class" (which were all named for cities in US service) served in escort groups in either the Alaska/Aleutians area or with 7th Fleet. About 5-6 served as weather ships in the PTO (after 3" removed -replaced by balloon shack).

[el cid again]

I still have not seen any data on what vessels transferred, what their Soviet designations were, or when they went over?
In any case - I added the Soviet Navy from scratch - and really only attempted to get the major units into it - with enough small ones to work. The Soviet Navy in this period was a big advocate of tiny vessels.

More generally, we simply lack the slots to put in every last Allied minor craft - or even Japanese craft.
Nor do I believe we have even thought about the merchant ship situation. There are probably thousands of missing vessels. Take a look at US Army Ships and Watercraft - the US Army had many tens of thousands of vessels and about a third more than the US Navy did - in the section on "MacArthur's Navy." In just one corner of PTO for only a portion of it you can see data and pictures of vessels you never heard of - and which are not in the game - but which really mattered logistically speaking. Just figuring out "is this vessel in our database" is hard - and we frankly have some vessels present under more than one name!

There is no way to address these issues comprehensively in a timely way. Any interest in addressing something specific must come with all the data: what specific ship, where, when, called what? And of course, how do you know that? It is not the priority to do this: so it will fold in IF there are slots, IF there is time to do them, and IF there is another matter causing a release that DOES have priority. And I am not sure you will ever get all those IFs in line at Matrix?

EDIT: FYI - without looking up the data (I am not home) - the US Army had about 84,000 ships and watercraft - while USN had over 60,000.
And of course there were lots of other Allied vessels - including even a large number of tiny Soviet submarines so far represented only as a device for coast defense - not as separate ships. These tiny vessels could be moved on RR cars - and were sent to the Far East that way.

[spence]

I still have not seen any data on what vessels transferred, what their Soviet designations were, or when they went over?

That must be because you are too busy providing us with your opinions to read anybody elses' posts. Earlier in this thread I posted a link to the USCG Historian's records for the USS Rockford, a USCG-manned, modified (UK) River Class Frigate, which served in the Pacific and was transferred like many of her sisters to the Soviet Navy. The date and Soviet Navy "name" (EK-something) is in the link. I also posted the (name begins with) A-B-Cs of CG manned River Class Frigates if they were Lend-Leased with date and Soviet designation.

I later went through the rest of the alphabet and found a further 15 River Class transferred to the Soviets but I didn't post more than a summary. Since with only a few exceptions the entire Soviet Navy's history/performance during WW2 is superfluous I didn't figure it was really worth it to do what I did and then write it all up but rather just satisfied my curiosity.

The Russki's did give them all back except one which sank in a storm. A least one then ended up in the Japanese Defense Forces.

A cursory check shows that CHS 155 has a bunch if not all of the River Class Frigates that served in the PTO though I don't have the version with the Soviet Navy.

[el cid again]

You are correct: I am a coordinator and I do not have time to look up data in links for each small vessel. I twice above asked for the data in a usable form. I am "too busy" doing things already on the table - and this represents an unplanned expansion. IF it is YOUR priority THEN YOU give me the data you think should be used - on the forum or privately. Either way, as a coordinator I may spot check to insure it isn't fiction - or not - my judgement - and then I will enter it - or ask you to become file owner and do so. That is how the process works - and somehow I have managed to get 21 file sets to update - although 7 are about to vaporize (level 6). Being insulting is not a good way to sell incorporating something you want - when the work to implement it is not trivial - at least not in a coordinated set like RHS - where we try to offer different options for different tastes (each record must be entered 21 separate times). I get regular comments that I have far more patience than most - but it sometimes helps to explain the basic situation when people get negative. I don't believe in negative as helpful. So far I have not seen POSTED a specific case where you explained the SOVIET designation (so I can verify it in Russian materials) - along with dates, locations, former US name, etc. I do NOT have time to run down every last minor vessel, doubly so for a Navy that is not active for most of the war, and almost never in WITP because few players play long enough to change that. I added sub chasers, mine sweepers, and Soviet built frigates -
not to mention PT boats and every other vessel in the Far East Coast Guard and Soviet Navy - since when I began there were none at all.
I get some flak for "wasting time" adding Soviet things from people who apparently think we could do without the lot. I am not against adding Soviet things, but I will only add minor vessels if the work is set up - and in such a way that I can verify where they went from Russian materials. I don't think I see these vessels in some of the major Western references - although at the moment I am not in a position to check anything in my library because I am stuck in a public location. Being opinionated only means I have an opinion - and daring to express it only means I am willing to risk it being corrected by more data. It isn't a bad thing - so don't talk like it is.

[spence]

Mostly I just mentioned these River Class for historical interest but you keep insisting that they were minor/tiny etc. They were not.

They were slightly longer than a standard US DE but almost twice the displacement. They carried the same deadly combo of ASW weaponry when in US service but had the more modern sonar/radar/electronics removed or replaced when transferred to Soviet service.

My little ABC list is hardly hard to understand since it has simply US name, date of transfer to SU, Soviet name. If you want I'll post the other 15 in the same format when I get a chance.

[witpqs]

Are these ships that are already in other navies in RHS/CHS before being lent to the USSR? I guess I'm asking if they would be duplicates by being in USSR service and USN service?

[spence]

Are these ships that are already in other navies in RHS/CHS before being lent to the USSR? I guess I'm asking if they would be duplicates by being in USSR service and USN service?

YES THEY ARE...in CHS they are US ships (didn't check when they come in but should be in early-mid 44)...they then were transferred to the USSR. Technically they wouldn't be exactly the same since the US downgraded at least their sensors before turning them over to the Russians. Since there is no game mechanism for withdrawals or changes of nationality (especially with a refit that downgrades their capability) I really only mentioned them for a historical footnote.

I didn't check their classification in CHS but they were VERY capable specialized ASW ships with every bit of the ASW firepower (and AAA) as any DE (essentially they lack the anti-ship torpedo tubes that most DEs had) and if CHS has them as PCs or PGs because the USN/USCG called them "PF"s that would not be correct since it essentially turns them into non-entitities as far as crew experience is concerned.

[witpqs]

Okay, I think I understand.

1) They probably are already in RHS (because they are in CHS).

2) The only question is how they are present - as patrol craft, DE's , etc.?

3) And, they can't be entered for the USSR Navy because then they would be in the scenario twice (there being no way to do a mandatory withdrawal).

I suppose a player could simulate a hand-over by sending them to a USSR port (but they still wouldn't have advanced technology stripped away).

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: spence

Mostly I just mentioned these River Class for historical interest but you keep insisting that they were minor/tiny etc. They were not.

In a game with battleships, cruisers, aircraft carriers, and gigantic merchant/auxiliary types, something like a DE is indeed called minor/tiny. I served in the USN and it is also the official view. I once came behind two of these vessels - abandoned - tied up abeam of each other - and I was astonished just how small they appeared to be - even from the perspective of a destroyer sailor (on a destroyer at that moment). Granted that in the present age name inflation has reached the point that a "frigate" can be very large indeed, no one would have said that of these ships in that era.

The truth of the matter is that only by great effort have I been able to create slots for such vessels - using the somewhat radical measure of multiple vessels for boats and very tiny ships like PC and MSW. WITP was not designed to include any Soviet ships at all - and I just about added everything possible until I made this move. Now it needs to be TESTED - and I cannot test while we continue to modify. So it is a very low priority to add any more vessels - and if you want it - you need to do the data research - or it will wait until after we do the tests. You have perhaps a day left - and arguing (and being wrong) won't get the job done.