Winter War Battles

[KG Erwin]

Right. I set the points to XXX. There's no way in hades I'm gonna give the Russkis 20, 000 points. [:D]

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: Alby

One thing 'Korppi' and I have been fixing lately is the armor ratings on those Soviet T-26 tanks. Finnish AT guns historically were more effective against them then the game represented, so we started digging and found the armor on the T26s in the game was way higher than it should have been....not sure how this came to be or where the ratings came from, but we found that some had up to 50mm armor or more, in the game. 15mm was standard, with some upgrades to around 25mm, this alone may have quite an effect on Finn vs Soviet battles, if the Ruskies use alot of those model tanks.
[:)]

This is good. I think someone in a long-ago team saw the armor schematics for the T-26 and misread 15 for 45. I found one of those, and it IS hard to read. That kind of typo error is easy to make, as you well know.

[Korpraali V]

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen
FDF had SOME tanks at start of war (mostly Renaults), and they captured more from Red Army. At first tanks were dug-in and they didn't move unless they had to. That is most what I know about finnish tank tactics [8|]

But there were tanks, and they were used. And by end of war, there were lots of captured tanks, armoured cars and other vehicles.

Several Soviet AFVs and ACs were captured but iirc they were able to be used only at the start of Continuation war 1941. As for Finnish tanks in Winter war see the beginning of http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/FORMATIONS4.htm

ORIGINAL: Alby

One thing 'Korppi' and I have been fixing lately is the armor ratings on those Soviet T-26 tanks. Finnish AT guns historically were more effective against them then the game represented, so we started digging and found the armor on the T26s in the game was way higher than it should have been....not sure how this came to be or where the ratings came from, but we found that some had up to 50mm armor or more, in the game. 15mm was standard, with some upgrades to around 25mm, this alone may have quite an effect on Finn vs Soviet battles, if the Ruskies use alot of those model tanks.
[:)]

37mm Bofors ATG was an equal competitor for 37mm PaK36. You can see the penetration test results from here http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/AT_GUNS1.htm
It could even be worth to raise the penetration values of Bofors a bit... perhaps. [;)]

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Erwin,

I'm not sure what you mean that you are playing "historically"? Does anybody on this forum know what historical Finnish tactics were? If anybody knows, it would probably be Korpraali. Which is why I suggested that he provide us with an "historical" AAR of a Winter War battle, say Finns delay (or defend) against Soviet advance (or assault). He could show us historical Finnish tactics.

Tactics used depended naturally of leader skills, training, landscape, force strength etc. Mainly there were two kinds of doctrines used, as said before. The problem in modelling them and the 'historical' unit selection to game is that the Soviet AI won't necessarily know what is 'historical' force selection and what is the tactic it should use. So when playing against AI and trying to lean on history it'll eventually become quite one-sided thing.

F.e. if I take two 20mm ATGs to stop Soviet Amphibious (historical) vehicles in Northern Finland and face instead KVs (historically present only in the Ishtmus of Karelia) that won't really be a test of historical battle. Another example is that in game Soviet force doesn't avoid woods as most (not all) of them did in Winter war.

All in all if one wants to lean on history he/she needs to play pre-made scenarios or have a PBEM company that will share the same view - at least this is how I mainly feel it in Finnish-Soviet battles. Although even this means only that one can trust the other one to have 'historical' force selection. To use historical tactics is another issue. Most of us avoid the problems of different tactics used by different nations. Most notably that is true when using Soviet forces in Winter war. Actually in that the human Finn vs AI Soviet really may model the historical tactics better than human Finn vs human Soviet. Lol! Although C&C ON forces early war Soviets to use blind mass tactic also when led by human player.

As for test game: I'm not sure if I have enough time right now. If you like, I can try to do something but that won't be anything big. I have currently my hands full of work. Sorry to say that.

[KG Erwin]

I gotta explain something -- I'm making such heavy weather (pun intended) of this just because I wanted to explore a different type of war.

The Winter War is as far removed from the Pacific jungles as one can imagine.

After a bit of wailing and teeth-gnashing, we've come to find that there are errors in the database, and that's a good thing.

It was NEVER my intention to bash the ENH team. After all, I've been a contributor to their collective efforts. All I wanted was to try something different, and only then did I notice some gameplay anomalies.

So, to Alby and Flashfyre, I apologize if I made you angry with me. I'm only trying to help make the game more historically accurate. My blatant error was in not communicating my concerns in e-mails and PMs.

It's a catch-22. If the community isn't made aware of suggested changes, we get accused of being "Secret Wizards and Gurus (SWAGs)". If it's taken public, then misunderstandings occur.

[Alby]

But you posted falsehoods, like the Soviets ratings were too high, when in fact they had been lowered.
Best to know your facts before pointing fingers
[:D]

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: Alby

But you posted falsehoods, like the Soviets ratings were too high, when in fact they had been lowered.
Best to know your facts before pointing fingers
[:D]

Ok, I've been spanked. No, I DON'T always enjoy it. It depends on who is delivering it, but that's an altogether different scenario.

[Alby]

apology accepted, now take foot out of mouth
[:D][:D][:D]

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: Alby

apology accepted, now take foot out of mouth
[:D][:D][:D]

Alright. What's that 80s song, "I love the sound of breaking glass" ? That describes the Molotovs pretty well. That's some of the best sound FX in the game (603-605). I've listened to these in WMP. Awesome stuff.

[Kuokkanen]

I got PM from Glenn. I thought I'd better copy my response here too.

I realize that the stereotype of brave Finns on skis isolating the road-bound Russians and picking them apart is not the whole story.

What I have learned from Winter War, is mostly what I have read from novels, and many consider those being less reliable than Wikipedia. However, many what I have read are based on real events, and some are written by veterans that have themselves been in battles. Esa Anttala is one such writer.

One book, I still remember something about, is Lapin kuolemankolonnat written by Pentti Tikkanen in 1990. It's about Winter War in Lapland. I remember well description about daily routine: soviets attack, finns retreat, counterattack is made and trenches are dug deeper. Yes, trenches: finns were defending some village or town that had road to east used by supply trucks. Behind MLR were fox holes where AT teams were hiding: if tank got over MLR trench, it would be attacked by individual soldiers in fox holes. For SPWAW purposes, small teams could be in front of main trench line (could had been IRL too), throw satchel charge or Molotov's cocktail at first tank and run while MLR provide covering fire. Note: in whole book was used only one proper AT cannon: damaged Bofors (sight systems blasted, aiming was made by peeking through barrel), and it wasn't on that town.

In one finnish comic book (please don't laugh) soviets were retreating and they were going cross frozen lake. Using plowed narrow paths, finns moved their heavy weapons by trucks, Maxims and one light cannon, to ambush position around the lake. Needless to say, it was nasty. Even though this particular case wouldn't be 1-to-1 with history, something like that was done indeed.

In Karelia there were heavy fortifications along Mannerheim-line, including Miljoonalinnake. That fortress, along with many others, endured for most of the Winter War. Finally soviet artillery managed to crush Miljoonalinnake, and same likely happened for few other fortifications. At end of both Winter War and Continuation War soviets were taking ground, but they likely came to conclusion that continuing the war would be more trouble than worth of it. Besides, by end of Winter War, soviets had what they wanted most: Pechenga and buffer zone between Finland's border and Leningrad.

if I take two 20mm ATGs to stop Soviet Amphibious (historical) vehicles in Northern Finland

20 mm ATG... what are those? Or do you mean ATR, the Elefantgun?

[Korpraali V]

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen
20 mm ATG... what are those? Or do you mean ATR, the Elefantgun?

Few 20mm Madsen automatic AA-guns were used as AT-guns with improvised sledge mounts.