Winter War Battles

[vahauser]

I'm not sure what all the hullaballoo is about regarding the Finns vs the Soviets during the Winter War.

I can win with the Finns against the Soviets using Enhanced DVRN with Country Training ON.

Don't misunderstand me. The Soviets are a tough opponent for the Finns and the Finns have to play very sharp, but the Finns are by no means helpless against the big bad Soviets, even with all their T-28s and KV-1s.

However, since the way I play the game is considered to be heretical, then perhaps we should let Korpraali or Matti show the doubters out there how the Finns can beat the Soviet armored juggernaut.

[Goblin]

Just to see what was going on, I started a battle last night, December, 1939. I took 6 squads of Finnish infantry, six infantry guns, four MG's, and my A0 unit.

I managed to kill 41 Russian tanks and 350 some odd men, for a loss of 80 of my men. I realised something was wrong about halfway to game end. [&:]

I had left the Soviet player set at 7500 points! [X(]

Needless to say, when noticed, I F9ed out. [:o]

I was happy with the Finns' performance. I had a couple of squads assault four tanks and get three of them in one turn, and my infantry guns did not do badly. My MG's were not used for the most part.

The Soviets did seem rather tank heavy, but they had 7500 points to spend, and I had not even glimpsed what they had that was still coming up.

Gonna have to try it again with the points set correctly...




Goblin

[vahauser]

Goblin,
 
I'm convinced that the Soviet leadership and morale is so poor during the Winter War that two things happen:
 
1) Even a few rounds of small arms fire is enough to button up most Soviet tanks or even send them retreating.
2) Their low troop quality means that they don't get many shots.
 
Finnish machineguns that can manage to get a clear shot can put significant suppression on Soviet AFVs.  And once a Soviet AFV is suppresed, then it can be close assaulted with a decent chance of success.  Even a handful of Finnish mortars can suppress a whole tank company, which can then be close assaulted.  Further, the computer is so predictable in its movements, that ambushes can be set up in favorable positions.
 
If the Finns stay mobile, and if they don't try to slug it out toe-to-toe with unsupressed Soviets.  If they use hit and run tactics, especially with ski jagers, then they can wear the Soviets down and eventually defeat them.  It might take 30 turns of nerve-wracking combat, but if the Finnish player doesn't panic and stays focused, then the Finns can prevail even against a larger and more powerful Soviet force.  A side effect of all this is that even if the Finns can't retain control of all victory hexes (due mainly to hit-and-run tactics), the large number of Soviet losses will often make up for it leaving the Finns victorious anyway.

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: Goblin

Just to see what was going on, I started a battle last night, December, 1939. I took 6 squads of Finnish infantry, six infantry guns, four MG's, and my A0 unit.

Historically not very accurate: FDF didn't have so many heavy weapons. I guess that at start of war, for each company there was like one MG, either Maxim or Lahti-Saloranta, and maybe battery of AT weapons for each battalion, which had to be shared throughout the line.

About tactics: it was trench warfare. Of course there were ad-hoc special forces, called guerrillas, operating behind the lines, and sometimes couple squads from front line scouting and blowing something up (think about movie Desert Rats)

[Korpraali V]

Well... In Ishtmus of Karelia and just north from lake Ladoga (Laatokka) it was mostly trench warfare. That was the tactical decision made long time before the war. North from lake Ladoga the borderline just was too long for trench warfare so the tactic used had to be different. Long distances and few narrow roads supported the elastic defence doctrine and small flanking forces hitting behind the Soviet lines (Soviets practiced the latter one too at least in Petsanga (Petsamo) area far north. In Ishtmus of Karelia there just wasn't enough space for flanking or elastic defence tactic.

Material problems were huge, that's true. But there was almost enough HMGs, LMGs and SMGs compared to how they were meant to be used. That is to say at first SMGs were used as group support weapons like LMGs. That led to situation where every squad should have either one LMG or one SMG. Very soon it became clear that SMGs are best used when company's ones were gathered to first strike units and used in a mass. Mainly there were enough HMGs. In the beginning of war every division had 18 37mm ATGs. On paper. The reality was different. Infantry guns were few and outdated. Later on the material situation got better... but the men got fewer... one could say those may relate each others somehow (together with other reasons) [;)]


All in all as long as you have infantry based force with not much anything else and no tanks at all, you can feel allright [;)]

[FlashfyreSP]

You wanna practice your Finn-v-Russian tactics, with a small force? Then try my SUS Battle #2, "The Finnish Ambush." [;)]

[Korpraali V]

Paid advertise? [;)]


Then I'll add my own: Try Desperate times #2.


[8D]



[:D][:D][:D]

[Alby]

For everyones info...the Finns are rated higher than the Soviets in 39, 40 AND 41 in troop experience and higher in other categories after that.
So Glenns comment in the other thread about the Soviets being rated too high is not correct....We actually LOWERED the early war Soviets, due to Stalin's purges and other factors. We also bumped up the Finns ratings some after long discussions, which included some of our many Finnish friends here, and at other forums.
Before anyone starts spouting out falsehoods, perhaps they should actually know what was done.
[:)]

LEADER EXPERIENCE
70,70,70,70,65,60,60, // FINNISH
45,50,65,65,65,70,70, // SOVIET

LEADER MORALE
65,70,70,70,70,70,70, // FINNISH
55,60,65,65,70,75,75, // SOVIET

TROOP EXPERIENCE
55,59,65,65,65,69,65, // FINNISH
49,55,59,65,69,69,69, // SOVIET

TROOP MORALE
70,75,75,75,65,70,65, // FINNISH
55,60,65,65,70,75,75, // SOVIET

As far as Russian AI pickslists..there are some formations that are marked as such, but there are also others that are 'normal' in appearance, but the AI still uses them as well as human players, and these can only be found out by some some extensive testing...
This holds true in every OOB in the game. Not all formations the AI picks from are marked as an AI Formation

[Alby]

Just to see I had the computer buy a 2000 point Russian force in 1939 vs Finns
I dont see an over abundance of tanks, I see a pretty balanced force of Infantry, light and Heavier tanks, and some arty.

[KG Erwin]

Hmm -- I noticed something in my OOBs. All of them are designated as SPWAW ENH-DV, with the exception of the Soviet Union. It's labeled SPWAW FV HTH.

That isn't right, is it? I have no idea where that one came from. [&:]

Can someone e-mail me the correct OOB?

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Hmm -- I noticed something in my OOBs. All of them are designated as SPWAW ENH-DV, with the exception of the Soviet Union. It's labeled SPWAW FV HTH.

That isn't right, is it? I have no idea where that one came from. [&:]

Can someone e-mail me the correct OOB?

Mine says same...that means nothing except that was one OOB that we, or I, forgot to update the name of, in the formations screen
DV came from a combination of the FV and HTH versions

I need to go thru and update all those names

[KG Erwin]

Ok, thanks for the info.

[KG Erwin]

Ok, I set up a test battle, Soviet advance vs Finnish delay, set max points, and gave myself a battalion of infantry (12 infantry platoons plus a Jaeger platoon), 12 HMGs, 2 37mm ATG, 3 81mm mortars, a battalion of off-board 122s, and a few ammo carriers. No ATRs.

I saved this, opened up the game editor, and checked the Soviet force purchase. The AI had selected 9 infantry platoons and over 100 (!!) tanks. Now, 50 tanks might be considered reasonable, but yikes!

So, should I set up a campaign with a fixed number of purchase points? The total point value of my Finnish force was around 1500.

[Alby]

 
You gave the Soviets 20,000 points and yourself 1500?
what are you trying to prove here?
[&:]
If the AI formations are unbalanced at Max points dont use Max points, it aint our fault.
The test battle I set up, the Soviet force looked pretty balanced
I think you are too used to fighting Infantry battles in the jungle with Marines and Japs and cant deal with tanks
[:D]

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: Korpraali V

North from lake Ladoga the borderline just was too long for trench warfare so the tactic used had to be different. Long distances and few narrow roads supported the elastic defence doctrine and small flanking forces hitting behind the Soviet lines

D'oh! I had totally forgot motti tactics! Yes, indeed entire Red Army divisions were flanked and surrounded such a way that they couldn't broke off. That also cut off supply lines, except air drops by cargo planes and bombers. But being surrounded from all directions and under almost constant artillery fire (or as much as there were ammo available) forced RA troops to tighten belt, dug in, wait and pray. In Continuation War they used counter tactic for it, where all men charge in column firing as they go.

All in all as long as you have infantry based force with not much anything else and no tanks at all, you can feel allright [;)]

FDF had SOME tanks at start of war (mostly Renaults), and they captured more from Red Army. At first tanks were dug-in and they didn't move unless they had to. That is most what I know about finnish tank tactics [8|]

But there were tanks, and they were used. And by end of war, there were lots of captured tanks, armoured cars and other vehicles.

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: Alby

 
You gave the Soviets 20,000 points and yourself 1500?
what are you trying to prove here?
[&:]
If the AI formations are unbalanced at Max points dont use Max points, it aint our fault.
The test battle I set up, the Soviet force looked pretty balanced
I think you are too used to fighting Infantry battles in the jungle with Marines and Japs and cant deal with tanks
[:D]

Hold on. Are the battle routines set up different from the long campaigns? I was under the impression that the AI will pick forces based upon your point total, with adjustments made for the mission type.

Even in my USMC battles, I keep my purchase point total in the 2000 range.

As for dealing with tanks -- the Finns I buy do have Molotovs and grenades. These guys are vicious in close assaults vs armor. I try to keep inside the forests, and maintain a reserve. What's happening is that the Russian AI is stacking up 3 or 4 tanks per hex against my infantry.

I'm still practicing, but without ATRs and numerous AT guns, I really don't see how the Finns held out as long as they did.

Maybe I'm restricting myself too much by trying to play completely historically. More fortifications, perhaps? Mines, even? (You know how I feel about using those infernal devices. I don't use them.)

I find this fascinating, because I'm not used to getting my butt kicked so handily by the AI.

[vahauser]

Erwin,
 
I'm not sure what you mean that you are playing "historically"?  Does anybody on this forum know what historical Finnish tactics were?  If anybody knows, it would probably be Korpraali.  Which is why I suggested that he provide us with an "historical" AAR of a Winter War battle, say Finns delay (or defend) against Soviet advance (or assault).  He could show us historical Finnish tactics.

[Kuokkanen]

Sounds cool. Korppi, what do you say?

[Alby]

One thing 'Korppi' and I have been fixing lately is the armor ratings on those Soviet T-26 tanks. Finnish AT guns historically were more effective against them then the game represented, so we started digging and found the armor on the T26s in the game was way higher than it should have been....not sure how this came to be or where the ratings came from, but we found that some had up to 50mm armor or more, in the game. 15mm was standard, with some upgrades to around 25mm, this alone may have quite an effect on Finn vs Soviet battles, if the Ruskies use alot of those model tanks.
[:)]

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

ORIGINAL: Alby

 
You gave the Soviets 20,000 points and yourself 1500?
what are you trying to prove here?
[&:]
If the AI formations are unbalanced at Max points dont use Max points, it aint our fault.
The test battle I set up, the Soviet force looked pretty balanced
I think you are too used to fighting Infantry battles in the jungle with Marines and Japs and cant deal with tanks
[:D]

Hold on. Are the battle routines set up different from the long campaigns? I was under the impression that the AI will pick forces based upon your point total, with adjustments made for the mission type.

You said you gave the Russians "MAX" points, which is 20,000...did you mean you se it to XXX
[&:]