Last request for comments: OVER

[mikemike]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The captains name is too long to include more than the first initial - and no space between it and the last name.

That's allright - maybe I should expressed myself more clearly: the full name of the captain is Helmut von Ruckteschell - quite a mouthfull for any non-German-speaker, and hard enough to spell correctly even for Germans. You merely had a mis-spelling in the family name - I have no issue with the way you had to abbreviate the name.

Ammo in WITP is in "shots" - and a "shot" is typically 6 rounds. I had no ammo count - but 250 to 300 RPG is a great deal (which a raider might want so it need not resupply often - but it is a risk - you lose the raider - you lose the investment in ammo -- and it is a danger since the ammo is not in protected magazines - it might explode the ship in a battle). 300 rounds is 50 shots.

I looked at the following website :
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/hilfskreuzer/thor.html
This site has fairly detailed histories of the raiders. According to this site, Thor fired a total of 1087 150mm rounds at HMS Alcantara, HMS Carnarvon Castle, and the reefer Natia, not counting the rounds fired to stop and sink Thor's seven previous victims, so I'd guess at a total expenditure of 1100-1200 rounds. This was described as about two-thirds of the total capacity, so Thor must have carried a total of at least 1500 rounds of 150mm ammo. Now Michel was a later and slightly larger ship, so I'd assume a loadout of 1500-1800 shells total. As you remarked, these ships were equipped for long cruises, with ranges of up to 84.500 nm
(Kormoran), so they carried rather large amounts of supplies of all kinds, including ammo. As to the explosion risk, the raiders often carried large loads of mines, Kormoran carried 420 mines when fighting HMAS Sydney (which must have made the situation even more interesting), so I don't think the large ammo load made anyone particularly nervous.

The captain of Uckermark was Commander Walther von Zatorski. Heinrich Dau, whom you have as captain, commanded the ship at the time of the Jössingfjord incident, when it was still called Altmark.

BTW, to describe Uckermark merely as AO is a bit of a misnomer. The class could be seen as forerunners of the post-war AOR/AOE types, with a speed of 21 kts and carrying 7900 ts of fuel, 980 ts of ammo, 790 ts of supplies and 100 ts of spare parts (typically).

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

It's the AV Kamoi! It has 16 FF and 4 FP - but only a capacity of 12! This is in RHS EOS but I guess in the others, too?

Kamoi has no assigned air group in CVO or BBO families. But it does in EOS family - and I see the problem. You are correct - it should
have 8 float fighters.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: mikemike

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The captains name is too long to include more than the first initial - and no space between it and the last name.

That's allright - maybe I should expressed myself more clearly: the full name of the captain is Helmut von Ruckteschell - quite a mouthfull for any non-German-speaker, and hard enough to spell correctly even for Germans. You merely had a mis-spelling in the family name - I have no issue with the way you had to abbreviate the name.

ah so - ich verstehen. we have a problem with long names and field length - so we abbreviate - preferring the real name to a fictional one

Ammo in WITP is in "shots" - and a "shot" is typically 6 rounds. I had no ammo count - but 250 to 300 RPG is a great deal (which a raider might want so it need not resupply often - but it is a risk - you lose the raider - you lose the investment in ammo -- and it is a danger since the ammo is not in protected magazines - it might explode the ship in a battle). 300 rounds is 50 shots.

I looked at the following website :
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/hilfskreuzer/thor.html
This site has fairly detailed histories of the raiders. According to this site, Thor fired a total of 1087 150mm rounds at HMS Alcantara, HMS Carnarvon Castle, and the reefer Natia, not counting the rounds fired to stop and sink Thor's seven previous victims, so I'd guess at a total expenditure of 1100-1200 rounds. This was described as about two-thirds of the total capacity, so Thor must have carried a total of at least 1500 rounds of 150mm ammo. Now Michel was a later and slightly larger ship, so I'd assume a loadout of 1500-1800 shells total. As you remarked, these ships were equipped for long cruises, with ranges of up to 84.500 nm

REPLY: Yes - but I believe they managed to obtain ammunition and fuel from time to time - that was the mission of the tanker we have in the game - and a few others. Even so, I went with your estimate - a few ships do this - and gave 48 shots. I did the same for both raiders and the tanker - which was designed as a raider as well.


(Kormoran), so they carried rather large amounts of supplies of all kinds, including ammo. As to the explosion risk, the raiders often carried large loads of mines, Kormoran carried 420 mines when fighting HMAS Sydney (which must have made the situation even more interesting), so I don't think the large ammo load made anyone particularly nervous.


REPLY: Bad idea. Japan's two most successful raiders were blown up by the contents of their own holds. 300 rounds of torpedos (irreplacable for Japan) were lost.

The captain of Uckermark was Commander Walther von Zatorski. Heinrich Dau, whom you have as captain, commanded the ship at the time of the Jössingfjord incident, when it was still called Altmark.

REPLY: Possibly correct. Most of the information I had on her was from "Altmark Incident" items/articles/reports. She was hard to get any information on - and my German navy book does not list a captain at any time. I am very surprised she had a commander as captain - she should rate a captain (kapitan zur zee) - even just as a tanker - never mind as a heavily armed raider/tanker. Was he young?

BTW, to describe Uckermark merely as AO is a bit of a misnomer. The class could be seen as forerunners of the post-war AOR/AOE types, with a speed of 21 kts and carrying 7900 ts of fuel, 980 ts of ammo, 790 ts of supplies and 100 ts of spare parts (typically).

REPLY: I agree - and in game terms it is an AOE - since "refueling" will also rearm you.

[el cid again]

packaging for upload - all RHS scenarios frozen as such until some unspecified future date - or forever in the case of levels 5 and 6

[mikemike]

ORIGINAL: el cid again


REPLY: Yes - but I believe they managed to obtain ammunition and fuel from time to time - that was the mission of the tanker we have in the game - and a few others. Even so, I went with your estimate - a few ships do this - and gave 48 shots. I did the same for both raiders and the tanker - which was designed as a raider as well.

True. Thor received 1000 rounds of 150mm ammo from the supply ship Alsterufer after its first two AMC encounters and then spent 724 rounds, more than half its remaining supply, to sink the British AMC HMS Voltaire. If you read the raiders' histories, you're amazed at how often they received fuel and supplies from a wide-spread network of supply ships, apparently at their own discretion and in complete safety, and that more than two years into the war and despite ULTRA.

(Kormoran), so they carried rather large amounts of supplies of all kinds, including ammo. As to the explosion risk, the raiders often carried large loads of mines, Kormoran carried 420 mines when fighting HMAS Sydney (which must have made the situation even more interesting), so I don't think the large ammo load made anyone particularly nervous.


REPLY: Bad idea. Japan's two most successful raiders were blown up by the contents of their own holds. 300 rounds of torpedos (irreplacable for Japan) were lost.

Too true. Pinguin was blown up when HMS Dorsetshire hit the mine hold containing 300 mines, leaving hardly any survivors. Kormoran's mines blew up, too, but the ship was already sinking at the time. This may make finding the wreck today even more difficult.

The captain of Uckermark was Commander Walther von Zatorski. Heinrich Dau, whom you have as captain, commanded the ship at the time of the Jössingfjord incident, when it was still called Altmark.

REPLY: Possibly correct. Most of the information I had on her was from "Altmark Incident" items/articles/reports. She was hard to get any information on - and my German navy book does not list a captain at any time. I am very surprised she had a commander as captain - she should rate a captain (kapitan zur zee) - even just as a tanker - never mind as a heavily armed raider/tanker. Was he young?

The info re von Zatorski is from this site: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56513
He was a reserve officer, a Korvettenkapitän, born in 1894 (48 when his ship blew up). Altmark/Uckermark's first captain, Dau, also was a Korvettenkapitän der Reserve. I suspect most auxiliaries were commanded by reserve officers with experience in driving merchant ships. (I translate Korvettenkapitän as Commander j.g., based on sleeve stripes, however, if you just count ranks down from Captain, it would be LCDR)

[Historiker]

One idea to the production of ships...
If you want to give the ships more durability than Japan can afford to produce - why not let them produce with a low one and let them upgrade immediately after completement to a version with more durability?
Then you could let german subs just have a durability of 1 to let them enter the game nearly for free while the upgrade to their intended durability after entering the game...
The same with TK/AO...

[Historiker]

Several ASW Ships seem to have to less DC.
Wehn you look at PC "Ch 23 & Ch 24", wich enters the game after 13 days in EOS, it has only 3 DC mounted together. I understood the "xy & xy" that this single unit should be two ships, no?
Shouldn't it have 6 DCs then?

The same with the late APDs (the ones with Kaiten)

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

One idea to the production of ships...
If you want to give the ships more durability than Japan can afford to produce - why not let them produce with a low one and let them upgrade immediately after completement to a version with more durability?
Then you could let german subs just have a durability of 1 to let them enter the game nearly for free while the upgrade to their intended durability after entering the game...
The same with TK/AO...

Submarines are no longer a problem: we have warship production working full bore (with the qualifier I don't want everything to be possible - and players must either expand shipyards or not build certain ships - but they get way over 90% of what RHS lists - which is more than IRL.
Also - you are paid back the entire cost of these submarines - on the first day - up front.

Merchant ships are a problem in the sense Japan is not paying for them (mostly) - and the present scheme works for AI as well as humans (where this suggestion would not). I see no big difference between not paying one way and not paying another way - and I prefer a simpler solution. But I like the fact Hihstoriker is thinking about how to do things better - and it is a somewhat functional proposal - insofar as it would work for human Japanese players.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Several ASW Ships seem to have to less DC.
Wehn you look at PC "Ch 23 & Ch 24", wich enters the game after 13 days in EOS, it has only 3 DC mounted together. I understood the "xy & xy" that this single unit should be two ships, no?
Shouldn't it have 6 DCs then?

The same with the late APDs (the ones with Kaiten)

Good question - and it shows this player is thinking.

What I did was very sophisticated. While most weapons appear twice - thus if there was a 3 inch gun forward you see 2 x 1 three inch guns - ASW weapons are different. This is because what happens is different for ASW. Each ship in a pair attacks alone - while the other holds track. What you get is twice as many shots - but the same number of weapons per slot. But it was a very fine question - and for most weapons - the answer would be "yes."

[Historiker]

Do the Japs SC have any advantege in tracking enemy subs then?
When one is standing by to keep the track without its own engines running on full speed - there should be a higher chance to hit the target, no?

[el cid again]

In WITP ASW sensors are very abstract. I think there are three variations

DE are the most effective

DD are intermediate in effectiveness

PC/SC and everything else is least effective

DD probably includes DMS and other destroyer variations

I rationalize this as "DEs have sonar and specialist crews" "DDs have sonar but ASW is not the primary mission of the crew" and "SC have hydrophones"

There is one other factor: At all three levels the Japanese have a modifier making them worse than the Allies. It may be each Allied nation has a different modifier - a common WITP practice - but only the former staqtement is in the manual.

The idea of a two ship ASW unit is unique to RHS, and has no code support. ALL you get is mroe shots. However, that DOES make your unit more effective - in two different senses: if it would have run out of shots, the attack continues, and the sub is more likely to be sunk/damaged;
if the unit would have run out of shots after an ASW engagement, it now will be able to engage in another one before it rearms.