A Question About Commands

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
I am also starting figur out how to move AFVs with a little more independence.  Make sure I am right here:  I have my P4 HQ halt order.  I gave the two subordinate P4s different engage/move orders.  I went back to the HQ and gave it its move order.  This left the other P4s' order alone.  Is that the correct sequence?

You mean the HQ is an Engage>Halt? Yes that is the way it works. As long as you don't change the base Order of the HQ you can edit the suborders of it or any other subunit and it won't change each others orders or paths. If you change the HQ from say Engage to Rush all the other subunits orders will be forgotten and they will all rush.

ORIGINAL: thewood1
Now I want the P4s to automatically halt when it sees the SU76s and engage them.  Once destroyed or out of LOS, I want them to move on to the final destination.  Should I have used defend/move instead, because under engage, they fired on the move.  Most tanks crews halted to fire in WW2, except in emergencies.

It won't automatically halt, backup. call artillery, turn around or move on to any other point when it sees something. It will however fire at the SU76 if it is moving in Advance mode. It will fire automatically when it finishes its move where it goes into Defend mode.

In Advance it moves at a slower than normal move so it can fire on the move, but not very well. You have to halt the tank yourself when it sees an enemy unit it wants to fire at.

[rickier65]

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I am also starting figur out how to move AFVs with a little more independence.  Make sure I am right here:  I have my P4 HQ halt order.  I gave the two subordinate P4s different engage/move orders.  I went back to the HQ and gave it its move order.  This left the other P4s' order alone.  Is that the correct sequence?

Wood - why would you first give HQ a halt order. Couldn't you give the HQ whatever Engage order you wanted it to end up with move or target, then go to sub units and change their move destinations - that way you wouldn't have to go back to HQ unit.

ORIGINAL: thewood1
Now I want the P4s to automatically halt when it sees the SU76s and engage them.  Once destroyed or out of LOS, I want them to move on to the final destination.  Should I have used defend/move instead, because under engage, they fired on the move.  Most tanks crews halted to fire in WW2, except in emergencies.

I'd also like better undertanding of the moving firing opportunities for the different orders -

ie for advance order - when will unit fire? and at what ROF?

same for other base orders

ie. in an engage --> move order, units will keep moving the entire 40sec and not react to enemy, unless they reach their objective - but if they reach their object they drop into DEFEND but will they still fire in that first 40 sec? I know I can order halt for Reaction phase - so Im taking about the first order phase.

Same question for defend -- move order

Thanks
Rick

(wood - hope you dont mind me piggy backing on your question.)

[thewood1]

HEY!  Stop poaching my questions.
 
I halted because they already had an engage/move destination and I wnated to clear all at the same time.  To me it is just a safety thing to make sure all units are cleared of orders before I start screwing around.
 
IMO, either engage or defend should have the unit actually halt and fire.  In the majority of situations IRL, moving fire is at best for suppression, at worst, a waste of ammo.  I would also imagine a unit low on ammo would have the brains inherently to not fire on them move except in desperation.  BTW, two of my P4s were lost in 30 seconds because they came into view of the SU76s and kept heading right for them only 350m away.  The P4s shrugged off the first three shots each (which happily surprised me looking at how thin the armor is on a P4g), but each kept blazing away without halting to fire and scored not hits in 2 or 3 shots,
 
Watching the P4s reminded of the old Soviet propaganda films showing T34s streaming over a hill with guns blazing and tank riders clinging for dear life.

[thewood1]

Sorry my mistake.  They had a regroup column order to go down a road when my AC spotted the SUs and I wanted to clear the regroup order first.
 
The HUD is the 1st biggest improvement over CMBB, the regroup is 2nd.  BFC was just too stubborn to put either one in.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
I am also starting figur out how to move AFVs with a little more independence.  Make sure I am right here:  I have my P4 HQ halt order.  I gave the two subordinate P4s different engage/move orders.  I went back to the HQ and gave it its move order.  This left the other P4s' order alone.  Is that the correct sequence?

I see you were already answered, but yes that will work.

Now I want the P4s to automatically halt when it sees the SU76s and engage them.  Once destroyed or out of LOS, I want them to move on to the final destination.  Should I have used defend/move instead, because under engage, they fired on the move.  Most tanks crews halted to fire in WW2, except in emergencies.

There is currently no order that automatically halts if it sees an enemy. The best way to do this right now is to give an order that allows movement and firing but to not have them move a long distance, so that they would stop and look around before the end of the phase if you want to be very careful. What I do is just move them forward and Halt them in Reaction if I need to. Most firing was indeed done while halted and that is a much more accurate way to fire in PCK too, but it's up to you to halt them and tell them you don't want them to keep moving to the objective. Otherwise, they'll assume they should defend themselves while still executing your movement orders.

Regards

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Rick
I'd also like better undertanding of the moving firing opportunities for the different orders -
ie for advance order - when will unit fire? and at what ROF?
same for other base orders
ie. in an engage --> move order, units will keep moving the entire 40sec and not react to enemy, unless they reach their objective - but if they reach their object they drop into DEFEND but will they still fire in that first 40 sec? I know I can order halt for Reaction phase - so Im taking about the first order phase.

I thought this was in the manual, but I'll re-check and see if I can come up with a more detailed summary if not. In short, moving units will generally have less accuracy and much worse spotting (and more limited cone of sight) which means they get relatively fewer fire opportunities and those that they do get are less likely to be effective.

The most effective "move and fire" orders for an individual unit are those with slower movement because that impacts accuracy less.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
BTW, two of my P4s were lost in 30 seconds because they came into view of the SU76s and kept heading right for them only 350m away.  The P4s shrugged off the first three shots each (which happily surprised me looking at how thin the armor is on a P4g), but each kept blazing away without halting to fire and scored not hits in 2 or 3 shots,

What orders did they have in that case? Once I'm that close to the enemy, if I _have_ to move I'm usually using Advance or Bound orders (or Defend/Engage Move for short distance if I'm adjusting say one platoon member) to avoid my whole platoon having bad accuracy modifiers.

[thewood1]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: thewood1
I am also starting figur out how to move AFVs with a little more independence.  Make sure I am right here:  I have my P4 HQ halt order.  I gave the two subordinate P4s different engage/move orders.  I went back to the HQ and gave it its move order.  This left the other P4s' order alone.  Is that the correct sequence?

I see you were already answered, but yes that will work.

Now I want the P4s to automatically halt when it sees the SU76s and engage them.  Once destroyed or out of LOS, I want them to move on to the final destination.  Should I have used defend/move instead, because under engage, they fired on the move.  Most tanks crews halted to fire in WW2, except in emergencies.

There is currently no order that automatically halts if it sees an enemy. The best way to do this right now is to give an order that allows movement and firing but to not have them move a long distance, so that they would stop and look around before the end of the phase if you want to be very careful. What I do is just move them forward and Halt them in Reaction if I need to. Most firing was indeed done while halted and that is a much more accurate way to fire in PCK too, but it's up to you to halt them and tell them you don't want them to keep moving to the objective. Otherwise, they'll assume they should defend themselves while still executing your movement orders.

Regards

- Erik

I hope you consider using one of the multiple ways to move having the feature to halt and fire. It would seem the advance feature would be perfect for that. I understand that a lot of the things I ask about can be done in the reaction phase. But 30 - 40 seconds is a long time in a firefight. We are supposed to be the brains for the majority of our units. 40 seconds is a long time to have no communications to our brain. It would have taken 3 or 4 turns to move the 50 or 60 meters I needed the tanks to move if I halted them at every LOS spot. I also believe in defend mode, they only get one shot a phase, is that correct?

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
IMO, either engage or defend should have the unit actually halt and fire.  In the majority of situations IRL, moving fire is at best for suppression, at worst, a waste of ammo.  I

True enough for Germans, but Russian would sometimes move and fire. In one case they scored a hit while moving [X(] while the wily Germans couldn't hit them even though the Germans were stationary.

I wonder if moving while firing could be made a special Soviet Order since Bound is a Special German order? Just a thought.

[rickier65]

ORIGINAL: thewood1

HEY!  Stop poaching my questions.

ok

Rick

[thewood1]

I was kidding of course.

[thewood1]

There was a copy of a translated tank manual for soviet tank commanders. They were specifically told to halt to fire at specific targets like AFVs. They fired on the move to suppress infantry in trenches and AT defenses.

The pages from the manual were posted on the BFC CMBB forums and originated on the Russian Battlefield website. I'll see if I can find it. I may ask someguys on that forum. There are a couple the specialize in Russian military doctrine. The Germans weren't too wily, most country's tank doctrine in AFV vs. AFV combat was fire on the halt unless ordered otherwise.

[Mobius]

Maybe they didn't all read the manual?
In the book "Panzer Gunner" 8 hull down PZIV with 75mm/L48s were attacked by 6 T-34/85 on the move.  The Russians not only fired on the move but tacked back and forth to throw off Germans.  One lucky shot got a PZIV in the turret while at first no Russians were hit.  Only when the Soviets slowed to a stop to get better aim did they take losses.

In this particular fight the wily Germans had made 4 dummy turrets out of wood. Then set charges in them to make the Soviets think they were killing Germans by the handful. When the Germans blew the dummies one by one the Soviets must have thought that their firing on the move was wiping them out and stopped to finish off the rest.
Then 4 Soviets were knocked out in a matter of minutes. The two remaining made smoke and ran away.

[thewood1]

I would think that the hit while moving was a lucky shot, especially because Erik actually states that the odds of hitting while moving are pretty low, even in PCK. 

Not reading the manual is interesting, because inexperienced units in CMBB aren't allowed to do certain things, as if they are inexperienced and not reading the manual.  I don't remember off hand, but the halting to fire (known as hunt command) may one of the things conscript tankers don't do.  I know Shoot and Scoot is off limits, maybe even hull down commands.

So you have given an example.  Do you think all tankers in WW2 fired on the move as standard doctrine, or just plain tactical sense?  Look at some of the AARs and histories of US tankers in NA.  There first offensive battles were a disaster (see Army at Dawn).  What were the first lessons learned that were issued...fire from the halt whenever possible.  The recent book about life as a Russian tanker specifically talks about in battle halting to get a better shot.  That was Kursk and after, as tankers lived long enough to have their own personal lessons learned.

Firing on the move was not a tactical doctrine, it was a tactical decision, based on the situation and experience.  Russians started winning as the operational war swung in their favor and they began to follow tactical doctrine and sense.  There were specific times that doctrine called for firing on the move.

And btw, Russian tankers did follow tactical doctrine as much as possible.  In 41 and 42, the doctrine was screwed up.  I am reading The Battle of Kursk right now, while mostly an operational level book, they talk quite a bit about improved tactical training and guess what...doctrine.  This book actually claims that that training and rewriting of doctrine to better match German doctrine is one of the reasons they held off the Germans at Kursk.

All I am saying is that you have at least four different types of move.  Not a single one allows halting to fire in the action phase.  In a 40 second turn, a lot of very basic stuff happens that you would expect a unit to be able to respond to.  I would think at least one of those options would be able to have a halt to fire option.  If someone is so against that, they don't have to use it.  They can ignore it.

[Mobius]

The Panzer gunner thought that those 6 T-34/85 were experienced crews because they started bunched up on a road then as they jinxed this way and that spread out over a field to make harder targets.  
 
Apparently when Russian tanks prepared to stop a cloud of exhaust smoke was given off right before as they changed gears.  So the Germans could prepare for that condition.
 
In the miniature game Advance was meant to be a Rush for a short distance then a quick stop and fire from a halt.   But the tank ended the move at a halt.  The penalties might be from dust, rocking and quick shooting.  PCK uses Advance in a different way.
 

[thewood1]

I'm curious what book that report was in and what year that was.  Do you have the name of the book?

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
I'm curious what book that report was in and what year that was.  Do you have the name of the book?

It is "Panzer Gunner". By Bruno Friesen. If you are in the US I got it at the Aberdeen book store about a month or so ago.
Best inside info on German tank gunners I've ever read.

[Erik Rutins]

I don't see any reason why we couldn't have a move order that allowed units to halt when firing, I'm just saying we don't have one right now, unless you could ordering a Halt in the Reaction phase to allow fire.

Regards,

- Erik

[thewood1]

Is Panzer Gunner autobiographical, biography, or researched accounts?

[Mobius]

autobiographical

PANZER GUNNER: FROM MY NATIVE CANADA TO THE GERMAN OSTFRONT AND BACK. IN ACTION WITH 25TH PANZER REGIMENT, 7TH PANZER DIVISION, 1944-45
Bruno Friesen, C

There are few memoirs available of German Panzer crews that focus on the climactic last 12 months of the war on the Eastern Front, 1944-45. What makes Bruno Friesen's account virtually unique is his family background: his parents came from a German-speaking Mennonite community in Ukraine, and were to all intents and purposes culturally German. To make matters even more complex, in 1924 his parents left the Ukraine for Canada, where Bruno was born. In March 1939 he and his brother Oscar found themselves on a ship bound for Bremerhaven in Germany. He barely spoke German, and had never been to Germany, nevertheless his father envisaged that a better life awaited them in the Third Reich. Needless to say, Bruno became caught up in the Second World War, and in 1942 was drafted into the Wehrmacht. The author provides a full account of his family background, and how, through these unusual circumstances, he found himself a Canadian-born German soldier. The bulk of the book is a detailed account of the author's training, and his subsequent service with 25th Panzer Regiment, part of 7th Panzer Division. As the title suggests, Bruno Friesen served as a gunner aboard, initially, Panzer IVs, before crewing the lesser-known Jagdpanzer IV tank hunter. The author provides a fantastic amount of information about these two vehicles, and how the crews actually fought in battle with them. This kind of 'hands-on' detail has almost never been available before, particularly such extensive information concerning the characteristics and combat performance of the Jagdpanzer IV. Apart from providing a large fund of information about specific German tanks and their combat performance, the author writes in great detail about the combat the experienced on the Eastern Front, including tank battles in Rumania, spring 1944, Lithuania in the summer of 1944, and West Prussia during early 1945. If one wants to know how German tank crews fought the Soviets in the last year of the war, then this book provides an outstanding account, containing material simply not found elsewhere. The author closes his account by reflecting on his post-war efforts to return to Canada, which eventually succeeded in 1950, and his subsequent life there. This book is not just a critique of armored fighting vehicles and tank warfare, it is above all a very human story, told in a lively, conversational and fluid manner, and is a remarkable contribution to the literature of the Second World War.