Theoretical invasion of England

[Odin]

Yes...i have the medals of one of those paratroopers (friend of my grandma in law??)which made it to crete and fight, including the famous "Kreta-Ärmelband" a yellow ring on weared on one arm of the uniform with printed "Kreta" in white.

This happens if you send in air-dropped units without totally air superioty..[:D]

[pasternakski]

A little more about BSA from the GMT Web site. The game is long out of print, so that someone wanting a copy would have to find it on eBay, the Decision Games "Desert Fox" used game store, or some such place.

Friends of mine and I used to play the heck out of this. It's a lot of fun, although it has been criticized by some as having a rather Byzantine turn sequence (I never found it to be a problem). The degree of detail is excellent, and it contains a pretty extensive analysis of the historical campaign and hypothetical circumstances. We used to really like playing the Battle of Britain sub-game to see if the actual invasion would ensue, which it didn't very often (as the German player, you had to meet certain victory conditions in order to shift into the invasion game itself.

Good stuff (and it is also designed for solitaire play, for those who like that sort of thing).

[Ambassador]

Well,
 
IF the Luftwaffe managed to gain air supremacy (not only superiority) over South England by continuing its attacks against Fighter Command longer,
 
IF the Luftwaffe had the means to prevent the Royal Navy of interfering, by crash-developping torpedo bombers from He-111 or amassing enough Ju-87 (see the losses inflicted on the RN during the Battle of Crete in Spring 1941),
 
IF the Kriegsmarine managed to get enough warships to cover the invasion from the RN elements that would evade the Luftwaffe, by impressing the french fleet of Toulon (and maybe, by luck, having the RN not attacking Mers-el-Kebir), capturing Gibraltar, and bringing some parts of the french and italian fleets to the Channel ports,
 
IF submarines and raiders could succeed in preventing the delivery of thousands of weapons, guns, and lots of ammunition by the US,
 
IF the invasion force, the very first wave, managed to seize a relatively intact major harbor before supply became a problem,
 
IF they managed to actually start the invasion in the 1940 Fall, that is before too many field and beach defences were built,
 
THEN it might have worked.  But that's a long list of IFfes.  The possibility exists, but the probability is abysmally low that all these conditions could be met at the same time...[:-]

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: Japan

 

ORIGINAL: stuman

If memory serves me, I do not think many high ranking German field officers were keen on the idea.

Well.. I dont't think the Officers wanted to Invade France either... "It will be the end of Germany" some of them sayed.


After Dunkirk, UK had only enugth Heavy Equcimant in England to equip one singel divition.

If adding together all the homeguards (who had very few weapons), and the british army in UK who only had rifles
and light weapons (as its hevy weapons was left in Dunkirk) I dont think they would need very many divitions to secure the UK.

Assuming they had Total Air Supirriority, then they could prevented the British Fleet of entering the Channal.
The British Admiralety would never accepted "suecide" missions to stop a German Invation.

By landing 25 000 Paratroops on the British Channel Costlines, and then Airlifting in another 60 000 men to secure Channal Ports... then moving across 15-20 divitions on Barges and smaller ships to this channel ports..then starting to shipping in supplies...

Maby it could have worked,  but I think if they would managed air Supiriority they could managed it. 

Army vs Army there is definetly no doubdt... question has to be how fast and effectively they could moved their army across the channel.

If I was in charge I would invaded Gibralter, via Nationalist Spain if needed (regardless of what Franco would think about it) ... and then asked the Italiens to assist in Sealion with their entire Airforce and entire mershant fleet and navy.

According to what I read the invasion plan called for 9 German divisions and 1 airborne division. It was considered barely adequate.

Edit: also airlifting troops is not what was needed. It's the heavy equipment that would be needed to do in the English. Beating an enemy on the wide open fields of France is one thing, but I wouldn't want to be light infantry in England with a Home Guard squad behind every hedge row.

[stuman]

That is a good summation, including the need to do all of that before the worsening fall weather makes the landings even more difficult.

[crsutton]

Landing craft were the key and the Germans never really had them. Look at the Allies and the trial and error experiences that they had. June 1944 could never had happened without the setback at Dieppe, near run thing at Tarawa and the experience gained in North Africa, Salerno and Anzio. The Germans did not have had the luxury of time or resources to practice and learn, or the industrial capacity to build the speciality type craft to accomplish it. No real capital ships for bombardment either(none left floating for any length of time anyways), and a small airforce, (yes, very small) that could not deliver the type of bombload or interdiction necessary to cover the landings.
 
The reality is that if they could have done it, you know that they would have (Gotta love those wacky Nazis)....but they chose not to for good reason.
 
Of course, I am not saying that it would not make a fun simulations. Say, what is Gary Grisgby doing these days?[;)]

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: OldGuard1970

[;)]  Oh my, oh my - What memories!

In the early '60s I designed "Operation Sealion" based on the "D-Day" engine.  I offered it to Avalon Hill.  (My price was to be a free production copy.) To my eternal astonishment, they did not want it, so you cannot find a copy to play.  How sad!

Sorry to hear that. It would have been interesting to see. However, there is one reason I can see why a company would be reticent toward the idea, given how theoretical the situation, grognards would pick apart any implementation, no matter how well researched.

[heenanc]

"The British Admiralety would never accepted "suecide" missions to stop a German Invation."
 
It would be suicide if they didn't try this statement doesn't make sence.

[Odin]

In fall it is clearly to late...too much bad weather.

The fall of britain COULD have been made...but surely not in this manner like it was done.

Even Adolf didn´t want a war against Britain...the escape of british troops was on exsult of this thinking. The troops already in moved in position becomes his personal oders to make a stop...in a clear idea to let them escape.

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Landing craft were the key and the Germans never really had them. Look at the Allies and the trial and error experiences that they had. June 1944 could never had happened without the setback at Dieppe, near run thing at Tarawa and the experience gained in North Africa, Salerno and Anzio. The Germans did not have had the luxury of time or resources to practice and learn, or the industrial capacity to build the speciality type craft to accomplish it. No real capital ships for bombardment either(none left floating for any length of time anyways), and a small airforce, (yes, very small) that could not deliver the type of bombload or interdiction necessary to cover the landings.

The reality is that if they could have done it, you know that they would have (Gotta love those wacky Nazis)....but they chose not to for good reason.

Of course, I am not saying that it would not make a fun simulations. Say, what is Gary Grisgby doing these days?[;)]

This brings up a question I've had in my mind for sometime. Operation Sealion called for a landing on the SOutheast coast of England, where the channel was narrow, presumably so they could ferry across ships and mine the channel. It also would be right into the teeth of the English defense. Interestingly this is exactly what the Germans expected the allies to do on D-Day.

Would it not be better to do what the Allies did and pick a landing site that, while accessible, was less strongly defended and not expected to be the point of attack. Was there a better place for the Germans to land?

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

ORIGINAL: crsutton
This brings up a question I've had in my mind for sometime. Operation Sealion called for a landing on the SOutheast coast of England, where the channel was narrow, presumably so they could ferry across ships and mine the channel. It also would be right into the teeth of the English defense. Interestingly this is exactly what the Germans expected the allies to do on D-Day.

Would it not be better to do what the Allies did and pick a landing site that, while accessible, was less strongly defended and not expected to be the point of attack. Was there a better place for the Germans to land?

Not really a possibility with the "landing craft" the Germans were planning to use. Most were river craft and barges..., and the same narrowness that suited them to inland canals and locks would have made them deathtraps at sea in any kind of weather. They needed to get across quickly before a good-sized swell had them "turning turtle" en masse!

[TAIL GUNNER]

There are several scenarios in JTCS dealing with Sealion. Also two linked campaign games, one from each side.

Jason Petho (the creator of all things Sealion and JTCS' main guru), even crafted a huge mega-scenario of the entire hypothetical invasion - at platoon scale!

He's a cartographer by trade so of course the maps are perfect.

ChadG

[wesy]

If we are pondering hypothetical events, why not just bring in IJN to assert naval supremacy over the RN? [;)]

[wwengr]

If the IJN had sortied the KB to the English Channel, it could have been done![:)]

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: wesy

If we are pondering hypothetical events, why not just bring in IJN to assert naval supremacy over the RN? [;)]

Yeah..., the British could re-fuel them at Singapore, Columbo, Capetown and Gibralter so they could get there to attack them.

[Mifune]

Hmmm, years ago I had a Operation Sealion mod for a game. I want to say it was based on one of the SSI games, Pacific General probably, or maybe Peoples General. Either way it was the 5 Star game engine.

[Mifune]

After a bit of hunting it was indeed a Operation Sealion mod for SSI Pacific General.

[borner]

It would have taken the KB going there to clear out the Royal Navy. Otherwise, what do you do? Run everything across the channel, beach it, and hope you get things unloaded before the RN comes through at night and blasts everything to scrap? You better pray for a short campaign as you sure are not going to get much in the way of supply after the first wave because everything you sent is going to be sunk.
 
 

[Commander Stormwolf]

Custom Scenario ~ Early 1941

Allied Navy (Britain has carriers too) fighiting KB + Lwaffe in Britain [:D]

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: wwengr

If the IJN had sortied the KB to the English Channel, it could have been done![:)]

I assume we have come up with a creative way to get Japan and the Empire at war in 1940?

Also, one might want to take a look at what "KB" would have comprised at that time, and what the aircraft and pilots would have been...