Australian Industry

[wwengr]

To simplify -

1) Hauling fuel to OZ and landing it gets you supplies via heavy industry
2) Hauling oil to OZ and landing it gets you supplies via refineries and heavy industry
3) Australian Heavy Industry has a great thirst for fuel to unless you can sustain landing greater than 2,150 fuel points per day, then you will not have a surplus and the Australian Heavy Industry will use up all of your fuel.
4) Northern OZ ports have no valid supply path to Industry, so anything you land there stays there. Also, any supply and fuel you need in Northern OZ ports must be shipped in or flown in.
5) If you want to be able ro refuel ships in OZ ports, then do either of two things

• sustain landing greater than 2,150 fuel per day, or
• don't unload the tankers and replenish in port from the tankers

Too much minutea? Probably. Allied player needs to understand OZ industry to sustain operational logistical requirements for that corner of the world? Definately!

[crsutton]

I did not realize that Oz itself was drinking so much fuel but the demands of Oz on the Allies seems historic. I find that I can get enough fuel to Oz.
 
Most of my Cape Town fuel goes to Perth. That seems to keep OZ happy.
 
I was sending my oil reserves to Sidney but am now keeping my strategic reserves at Sulva and Aukland. Depending on the direction of your opponents advance Hobart can serve as a base to build up fuel reserves. You will have to send some engineers there to build up the port and airbase but it is large enough.
 
The Allies have plenty of shipping to move oil. I barely have enough tankers but find that I have plenty of AKs. They can haul fuel. I have sent about 40 Aks to shuttle supplies from the East Coast to Cape Town. I think I will send some fuel as well.  I don't bother shipping oil.
 
 

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Venividivici10044

Castor Troy mentions this issue in his AAR...Any thoughts. I wanted to bring it into its own topic for analysis and opinion from some of the seniors here.


" What really pisses me off is the fact that you need the tanker capacity of 100.000 tons to bring fuel to Australia MONTHLY to just feed the damned industry there that is sucking your fuel depots dry and you have no possibility to turn the damned HI off. This is the biggest joke within many I´ve "discovered" so far... This means that 25% of your total TK capacity is used just to feed Australia´s industry and you haven´t brought a single ton of fuel for your ships. Considering the fact that it takes at least a month for a TF to move from the West Coast to Australia and another month back then you will use 50% !!!! of your TK capacity just to haul fuel to OZ for nothing but to get HI points for your pool that you don´t need at all. If this is correct than I´m Buggs Bunny! Anyone ever thought about this before releasing the game? I´ve not done exact calculations but around Sidney alone is enough HI to suck your fuel depots dry. So what is the solution? Not using Australia as a staging point for operations at all? Just because you can´t deny HI to use your fuel? What a crappy BS... I seriously doubt that 50% of the US TK fleet in the Pacific was used to feed Australia´s heavy industry. Seriously..." - Quote from Castor Troy


Edited to remove the AAR link and potential damaging information related to the game in question. My apologies.

I was corrected in my AAR though and it doesn´t take 100.000 tons of fuel each month to feed the OZ industry but "only" 60.000 tons. I´m not usint Tracker or Staff but even when I heard that 60.000 tons will be sucked up for no gain to the Allied it was quite depressing, especially when you think about not having anywhere enough tankers until the end of 44.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: wwengr

Some of the full tankers can be put in port in a replenishment task force and not unloaded. They will then refuel ships. Set a steady run of fuel to Oz. As tankers arrive, hold out what you need for refueling in a replenishment TF. When dry, send back to pick up more and replace with inbound full tankers.

Note: Stock OOB Full Campaign, there are 18 tankers and 2 Oilers that start in Oz ports. Some can be used to load fuel and provide an immediate replenishment stock.

main problem is IMO that you can´t afford to keep your tankers in port to wait for ships to come and refuel. Nothing has to be as often at sea as the tankers and that´s what I´m planning to do. The only time when my tankers are in port is to load, unload and repair damage. All the other time they will be at sea, except perhaps when I want to regroup them and they are waiting for their compagnions.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Astarix

I use a mix of large xAK's and TK's to keep Oz fueled up. The allies may be short of TK's for the first 6-12 months, but they have hundreds of xAK's floating around.

1 option is to load fuel in the East Coast, ship it to Capetown then to Perth and from Perth distribute it around Oz. Lots of low capacity tankers in the SRA and OZ that aren't very suited to long range supply runs anyway. For that matter there are hundreds of low capacity xAKL's that make good fuel haulers too, for distributing the fuel from your supply hub.

Historically the allies faced the same problem and their solution was to haul the fuel in 47 gallon barrels. Not a very efficient solution.... but sometimes a big enough hammer can make a square peg fit in a round hole.

how do you use the small AKs to haul fuel? Thought only AK capable of carrying fuel can be used to do so in AE. No more everything can carry fuel like in WITP. [&:] The problem with the fuel carrying AKs is that they probably suck up way more fuel to go from the WC to OZ and back than they can carry themselve. Nice when you ship supplies and have some fuel to but I doubt it´s efficient at all to use them for fuel only.

[castor troy]

Something that comes to mind now is this that I didn´t overestimate the TK capacity needed but even underestimated it with 100.000 tons per month. If the HI in OZ sucks up roughly 67.000 tons of fuel each month than you need something like 150.000 TK capacity EACH month as the TKs have to go back and forth. So how much is 150.000 TK capacity of the total available capacity? [8|] Sounds too much for me, so with 300.000 tons of TK capacity going back and forth between the WC and Australia you will have 150.000 tons of fuel per month there for your ships. Probably 50.000 (or more) is used just for the transports so you perhaps get 100.000 for your Navy. lol, this is per month if you use TK for 300.000 tons. Going from Abadan is more or less the same distance as from the WC as you just can´t go directly to where you want to have it.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: moonraker

But who would want to supply Australia with Fuel from the US West Coast ?? I find it much easier to supply from Cape Town to Perth the same as I do with supplies. Then you can redistribute locally as nercessary to PM or Hobart or wherever. Perhaps some players don't realise but Cape Town also produces fuel as well as supplies. Not nearly as much as Abadan but enough to keep 2 CS convoys running permanently for me to keep Australia fuelled up. So I only use the Cape Town Fuel for Australia. SEA and India is supplied from Abadan and everything else to the West I supply from the West Coast.

And of course this is a much safer route than having to dodge Jap Aircraft or SCTF's that might happen to be in the vicinity if you're shipping from the US West Coast.

you get only 500 tons of fuel at Capetown per day, not nearly enough for Australia and you need this fuel for your ships anway.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: wwengr

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Getting fuel to Darwin becomes increasingly difficult once the AI occupies Timor; I can get convoys to Broome but any further and they come under air and the occasional surface TF attack.

Moving fuel to Perth has it "drain away" fairly quickly; I've shipped 40,000+ tons of fuel there in one TF and had it gone within a week.  Don't know where it went (I suspect the black market) because it never showed up in the nearby ports.

I think it got sucked up by the Australian Heavy Industry. There is a valid supply path between Perth and the Eastern Heavy Industry.

that´s exactly one of the problems. Sure Broome or Darwin wouldn´t be sucked dry as there´s no connection to HI centers but Perth has a nice railline going East. So Perth, Brisbane and Sidney is more or less a NOGO if you don´t want to see 67.000 tons of fuel vanish into HI points you don´t need (or supplies which you can bring in hundred of thousands of tons without any problems). But and that´s a big but, isn´t it gamey to just move the fuel elsewhere to stage your Navy there? New Zealand comes to mind for example. Only use Sidney´s repair yard and refuel elsewhere? All I want to know if it´s correct to use probably halve of the TKs on the map just to get 50-60.000 tons of fuel to OZ that actually can be spent for the Navy?

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I did not realize that Oz itself was drinking so much fuel but the demands of Oz on the Allies seems historic. I find that I can get enough fuel to Oz.

Most of my Cape Town fuel goes to Perth. That seems to keep OZ happy.

I was sending my oil reserves to Sidney but am now keeping my strategic reserves at Sulva and Aukland. Depending on the direction of your opponents advance Hobart can serve as a base to build up fuel reserves. You will have to send some engineers there to build up the port and airbase but it is large enough.

The Allies have plenty of shipping to move oil. I barely have enough tankers but find that I have plenty of AKs. They can haul fuel. I have sent about 40 Aks to shuttle supplies from the East Coast to Cape Town. I think I will send some fuel as well.  I don't bother shipping oil.

Cape Town by far isn´t producing enough fuel only for the HI in Australia. With 500 per day you get only 15.000 each month there and some is used for your ships, so perhaps 10.000 left for feeding OZ´s HI, which is not even 1/6 of the need. Cape Town starts with a lot of fuel, but "a lot" is subjective when you need 67.000 a month.

[wwengr]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: wwengr

Some of the full tankers can be put in port in a replenishment task force and not unloaded. They will then refuel ships. Set a steady run of fuel to Oz. As tankers arrive, hold out what you need for refueling in a replenishment TF. When dry, send back to pick up more and replace with inbound full tankers.

Note: Stock OOB Full Campaign, there are 18 tankers and 2 Oilers that start in Oz ports. Some can be used to load fuel and provide an immediate replenishment stock.

main problem is IMO that you can´t afford to keep your tankers in port to wait for ships to come and refuel. Nothing has to be as often at sea as the tankers and that´s what I´m planning to do. The only time when my tankers are in port is to load, unload and repair damage. All the other time they will be at sea, except perhaps when I want to regroup them and they are waiting for their compagnions.

Something that comes to mind now is this that I didn´t overestimate the TK capacity needed but even underestimated it with 100.000 tons per month. If the HI in OZ sucks up roughly 67.000 tons of fuel each month than you need something like 150.000 TK capacity EACH month as the TKs have to go back and forth. So how much is 150.000 TK capacity of the total

I'm not disagreing with you. It does seem that strategically, you should be able to set aside stocks in port specifically designated for ship refueling. As you pointed out though, the tanker shuttle to keep ahead of OZ's thirst is extreme.

Regardless, with a little careful planning a small number of tankers loaded and reserved for refuel is much more efficient than brute forcing the numbers game with OZ heavy industry. Especially if you are pulling these "reserved" tankers in and out of the shuttle on as needed basis. I don't suggest that you simply station full tankers in every port on the speculation that something may need to be refueled someday.

Even better is using replenishment TF's with a few AO's to meet thirsty TF's is more efficient. Stockpiling fuel in areas not accesible to OZ HI such as Broome and Noumea can create refueling bases also.

[wwengr]

Abadan produces 15,000 tons of fuel per day. Abadan to Perth is 155 hexes each way, so the round trip is 106 days (add a day of load and a day of unload). To deliever 2,150 tons per day average, it requires 2150 x 106 = 227,900 tons tanker capacity. The total Allied Tanker Capacity at the beginning (incl tankers at start and all that arrive in December 41) is 693,550 tons. So a tanker shuttle using about 33% of the total tanker capcity is necessary for this run.

[Central Blue]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm not sure I understand the minutae of this thread, nor that I even want to (delving this deeply into industrial output and needs gives me a headache), but I have been hauling fuel to Oz for a year in my game without any problems.  The fuel unloaded at Perth and Darwin remains there - it hasn't been sucked dry by industrial needs.  I'm not sure about Melbourne and Sydney since I rarely haul fuel to those ports and, when I do, it's usually because a TF there needs immediate replenishment (IE, the fuel doesn't remain on hand long enough for it to be diverted to industry).

What I'm saying is:  I think you can safely haul fuel to Perth and Darwin (and therefore in all likelihood Townsvlle, Cairns, etc.) and count on it remaining in stock for later use.

That's my experience, anyhow.

This is my experience playing to autumn 1943 on earlier versions. I basically dedicate the British and Dutch tankers to Oz and the American tankers to everything else, and I have no problems. I do use a small number of freighters to keep Capetown and Panama topped off.

Seems like the latest patch distributes the fuel better out of Perth so that I won't have to devote tankers to coast-wise Oz routes when they could better serve running between the East Coast and Cape Town. And it could be my imagination, but it seems like the Babes mod lite has more tankers to start with.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: wwengr

Abadan produces 15,000 tons of fuel per day. Abadan to Perth is 155 hexes each way, so the round trip is 106 days (add a day of load and a day of unload). To deliever 2,150 tons per day average, it requires 2150 x 106 = 227,900 tons tanker capacity. The total Allied Tanker Capacity at the beginning (incl tankers at start and all that arrive in December 41) is 693,550 tons. So a tanker shuttle using about 33% of the total tanker capcity is necessary for this run.

add in those you´re gonna lose and you´re pretty soon at 40% of your total TK capacity or if one of your TK convoys gets cought you´re at 50%... pff, way to much IMO. And you pretty much won´t be able to move at the 155 hexes from Abadan to Perth as this would bring you to close to dangerous zones, so I would add in at least 25 more hexes...

all in all not encouraging and IMO too much to be considered ok. [:(]

[Central Blue]

for grins I loaded up a save from July 1943 just to see what was going on.

Port -- Fuel

Milne Bay 10k
Townsville - 66k
Brisbane - 41k
Sydney - 19k
melbourne - 22k
Adelaide - 92k
perth - 32k

Auckland - 20k
Noumea - 78k
Suva - 51k
Pago Pago - 131k
vava-u - 142k
Penryn - 94k

Cape Town - 810k
Cristobal - 969k
Columbo - 925k
Pearl - 431k

[moonraker65]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Getting fuel to Darwin becomes increasingly difficult once the AI occupies Timor; I can get convoys to Broome but any further and they come under air and the occasional surface TF attack.

Moving fuel to Perth has it "drain away" fairly quickly; I've shipped 40,000+ tons of fuel there in one TF and had it gone within a week.  Don't know where it went (I suspect the black market) because it never showed up in the nearby ports.

It drains away at first because everywhere that needs fuel will suck it up. But after a while most places have what they need and the Fuel can be stockpiled at Perth. I am at July '42 in my GC and there is now over 100 k fuel stockpiled at Perth which I can now move locally to Townsville or Darwin - wherever it's needed. I think this is the safest way to get fuel in quantity to Oz without putting your TK's at risk from attack.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Central Blue

for grins I loaded up a save from July 1943 just to see what was going on.

Port -- Fuel

Milne Bay 10k
Townsville - 66k
Brisbane - 41k
Sydney - 19k
melbourne - 22k
Adelaide - 92k
perth - 32k

Auckland - 20k
Noumea - 78k
Suva - 51k
Pago Pago - 131k
vava-u - 142k
Penryn - 94k

Cape Town - 810k
Cristobal - 969k
Columbo - 925k
Pearl - 431k

looks pretty dry in Australia, not even enough to replenish a big CV force. Am amazed about Cape Town´s stock though, does this mean that those convoys that arive from off map are also bringing supplies and fuel? And what happens with those convoys? Do they retreat completely or do you also get some ships from them? There are convoys coming in later in the game that have 50 tankers in them.

[Cap Mandrake]

These observations:

1) This is a good example of why centrally planned economies don't work [:D]

2) Expect great hordes of Jap subs to set up shop off Aussie ports.


There is another reason to get fuel out of the DEI...so the Japs dont get it.

[Central Blue]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Central Blue

for grins I loaded up a save from July 1943 just to see what was going on.

Port -- Fuel

Milne Bay 10k
Townsville - 66k
Brisbane - 41k
Sydney - 19k
melbourne - 22k
Adelaide - 92k
perth - 32k

Auckland - 20k
Noumea - 78k
Suva - 51k
Pago Pago - 131k
vava-u - 142k
Penryn - 94k

Cape Town - 810k
Cristobal - 969k
Columbo - 925k
Pearl - 431k

looks pretty dry in Australia, not even enough to replenish a big CV force.

It's July 31, 1943, and I have just completed operations with six carrier groups (one group is Victorious and Hornet), a two-escort carrier group (Suwannee and Chenango, a large amphibious group, and a two BB (Colorado and West Virginia in addition to fast BB's escorting carriers) surface group in operations against Milne Bay, Rossel, Kiriwina, Woodlark, Buna, a leapfrog to Munda around Guadalcanal and Tulagi, and Canton. So I have been using some fuel lately. [:)]

These forces are currently on their way to Suva to mount operations against Guadalcanal,and then onto Tarawa and the Central Pacific while SWAPAC and SOPAC will conduct operations under land-based air units and won't need to supply so much fuel to so many ships -- probably for the rest of the war.

Am amazed about Cape Town´s stock though, does this mean that those convoys that arive from off map are also bringing supplies and fuel? And what happens with those convoys? Do they retreat completely or do you also get some ships from them? There are convoys coming in later in the game that have 50 tankers in them.

One of the first things I learned about the game is that you can't expect to run any kind of logistics operation out of Capetown depending on the convoys that are built into the game. You need to use CS convoys from the East Coast to keep Cape Town stocked with supply, and add to fuel stocks. I used to run my tanker chain from Abadan to Colombo To Perth, but now I run Abadan to Karachi to Capetown to Perth/Adelaide to avoid sub and raiders.

[John Lansford]

I've started running my fuel TF's to Adelaide rather than Perth, due to the inefficient transportation network that Perth has connecting it to everyone else.  Adelaide, OTOH, has a rail connection to the major industrial sites and a  large enough port to handle the offloading.  Fuel wastage from Perth is significant enough that I'm concerned it's not getting where it needs to go; it's late 10/42 in my CG and even 75k of fuel disappears from Perth without showing up anywhere else.  Same thing with supplies; I've unloaded 100k at Perth and within a week it was down to 18k.

[Central Blue]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

I've started running my fuel TF's to Adelaide rather than Perth, due to the inefficient transportation network that Perth has connecting it to everyone else.  Adelaide, OTOH, has a rail connection to the major industrial sites and a  large enough port to handle the offloading.  Fuel wastage from Perth is significant enough that I'm concerned it's not getting where it needs to go; it's late 10/42 in my CG and even 75k of fuel disappears from Perth without showing up anywhere else.  Same thing with supplies; I've unloaded 100k at Perth and within a week it was down to 18k.

Until I switched to Adelaide I was using CS tankers out of Perth to Adelaide, and then escorted runs to where ever I wanted the fuel. In that scenario I describe I was supplying Townsville from Auckland. I never noticed much wastage and until patch 2 it never seemed to go anywhere at all (except HI and thin air) once it landed at any port in Oz. Did you build the port size of Perth up to max?

I'm in early days on Babe Lite and am currently running on fuel from DEI and slowly setting up the routes again.