Australian Industry

[Venividivici10044]

Castor Troy mentions this issue in his AAR...Any thoughts. I wanted to bring it into its own topic for analysis and opinion from some of the seniors here.


" What really pisses me off is the fact that you need the tanker capacity of 100.000 tons to bring fuel to Australia MONTHLY to just feed the damned industry there that is sucking your fuel depots dry and you have no possibility to turn the damned HI off. This is the biggest joke within many I´ve "discovered" so far... This means that 25% of your total TK capacity is used just to feed Australia´s industry and you haven´t brought a single ton of fuel for your ships. Considering the fact that it takes at least a month for a TF to move from the West Coast to Australia and another month back then you will use 50% !!!! of your TK capacity just to haul fuel to OZ for nothing but to get HI points for your pool that you don´t need at all. If this is correct than I´m Buggs Bunny! Anyone ever thought about this before releasing the game? I´ve not done exact calculations but around Sidney alone is enough HI to suck your fuel depots dry. So what is the solution? Not using Australia as a staging point for operations at all? Just because you can´t deny HI to use your fuel? What a crappy BS... I seriously doubt that 50% of the US TK fleet in the Pacific was used to feed Australia´s heavy industry. Seriously..." - Quote from Castor Troy


Edited to remove the AAR link and potential damaging information related to the game in question. My apologies.

[wwengr]

Some of the full tankers can be put in port in a replenishment task force and not unloaded. They will then refuel ships. Set a steady run of fuel to Oz. As tankers arrive, hold out what you need for refueling in a replenishment TF. When dry, send back to pick up more and replace with inbound full tankers.

Note: Stock OOB Full Campaign, there are 18 tankers and 2 Oilers that start in Oz ports. Some can be used to load fuel and provide an immediate replenishment stock.

[khyberbill]

I supply Oz from Abadan. I supply SWPac from other ports such as Aukland, Noumea etc. I will send ships to use Sydney,s shipyard and thus send some fuel there. ymmv

[Astarix]

I use a mix of large xAK's and TK's to keep Oz fueled up. The allies may be short of TK's for the first 6-12 months, but they have hundreds of xAK's floating around.

1 option is to load fuel in the East Coast, ship it to Capetown then to Perth and from Perth distribute it around Oz. Lots of low capacity tankers in the SRA and OZ that aren't very suited to long range supply runs anyway. For that matter there are hundreds of low capacity xAKL's that make good fuel haulers too, for distributing the fuel from your supply hub.

Historically the allies faced the same problem and their solution was to haul the fuel in 47 gallon barrels. Not a very efficient solution.... but sometimes a big enough hammer can make a square peg fit in a round hole.

[wwengr]

One other thing to remember is that Melbourne has 35 refinery centers and Sydney has 20 refinery centers. The only Oil center in Oz is Sydney with 10 Oil Centers. This means that there is a daily deficit of 450 oil points. Look strictly at fuel though, hauling oil is less efficient (10 Oil to 1 Refinery produces 9 Fuel and 1 Supply), but at the very beginning of the war a relatively short tanker run between DEI and OZ to get some Oil into OZ can produce some quick fuel for Industry.

The actual Fuel requirements to keep Australian Heavy Industry going –

There are four aircraft production areas in Oz:

Mosquito FB – 12
Wirraway – 10
Beaufort V – 12
Beaufighter 21 – 7

The probability of producing an aircraft on any given day is (n+1)/30 where n = number of aircraft centers for that airframe at that location. Therefore in an average 30-day month, OZ will produce 13 Mosquitos (2 engine each), 11 Wirraways (1E), 13 Beaufort V (2E), and 8 Beaufighter 21 (2E). An average month is 30.4375 days long

The average number of engines then is 80.15 per month (13 x 2 + 11 x 1 + 13 x 2 + 8 x 2) x 30.4375 / 30.

Each engine requires 18 HI points therefore 1443 HI points are needed each month to meet average production.

Each HI point requires 1 fuel point, so 1443 fuel points per month are necessary to meet average HI requirements to produce aircraft. OZ has 10 Oil Centers that produce 100 total oil points per day and the excess refining capacity will convert this to 90 fuel points per day. That’s 2739 fuel points per average month.

Conclusion: you don’t need to land any fuel in OZ to keep up with production. I did not run the complete probability distribution, but I am sure that you can be greater than 99% confident that there will be enough fuel for industry.

The problem then is this. OZ has 1120 HI centers that will each consume 2 Fuel Points per day for 2240 fuel points per day. Since OZ produces 90 fuel points per day the daily need is 2150 Fuel points or 65441 fuel points per month (average month) to have no net fuel.

Conclusion: The tanker shuttle to OZ should not land fuel. Rather, tankers should go to OZ ports and not unload, but rather act as in port replenishment ships. This dramatically reduces the number of tankers to shuttle fuel to OZ and it reduces the total tanker exposure to Japanese submarines (and air for the Northern ports)

[bklooste]

" This means that 25% of your total TK capacity is used just to feed Australia´s industry

It is realistic Australia needed a lot fuel for cars and trucks and the HI supported the population and production ( you dont get Wiraways from nothing [;)] ) without it they would be pretty pissed off so much for your allies.

You can always ship it to Tasmania where it wont get sucked up.

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: wwengr

One other thing to remember is that Melbourne has 35 refinery centers and Sydney has 20 refinery centers. The only Oil center in Oz is Sydney with 10 Oil Centers. This means that there is a daily deficit of 450 oil points. Look strictly at fuel though, hauling oil is less efficient (10 Oil to 1 Refinery produces 9 Fuel and 1 Supply), but at the very beginning of the war a relatively short tanker run between DEI and OZ to get some Oil into OZ can produce some quick fuel for Industry.

The actual Fuel requirements to keep Australian Heavy Industry going –

There are four aircraft production areas in Oz:

Mosquito FB – 12
Wirraway – 10
Beaufort V – 12
Beaufighter 21 – 7

The probability of producing an aircraft on any given day is (n+1)/30 where n = number of aircraft centers for that airframe at that location. Therefore in an average 30-day month, OZ will produce 13 Mosquitos (2 engine each), 11 Wirraways (1E), 13 Beaufort V (2E), and 8 Beaufighter 21 (2E). An average month is 30.4375 days long

The average number of engines then is 80.15 per month (13 x 2 + 11 x 1 + 13 x 2 + 8 x 2) x 30.4375 / 30.

Each engine requires 18 HI points therefore 1443 HI points are needed each month to meet average production.

Each HI point requires 1 fuel point, so 1443 fuel points per month are necessary to meet average HI requirements to produce aircraft. OZ has 10 Oil Centers that produce 100 total oil points per day and the excess refining capacity will convert this to 90 fuel points per day. That’s 2739 fuel points per average month.

Conclusion: you don’t need to land any fuel in OZ to keep up with production. I did not run the complete probability distribution, but I am sure that you can be greater than 99% confident that there will be enough fuel for industry.

The problem then is this. OZ has 1120 HI centers that will each consume 2 Fuel Points per day for 2240 fuel points per day. Since OZ produces 90 fuel points per day the daily need is 2150 Fuel points or 65441 fuel points per month (average month) to have no net fuel.

Conclusion: The tanker shuttle to OZ should not land fuel. Rather, tankers should go to OZ ports and not unload, but rather act as in port replenishment ships. This dramatically reduces the number of tankers to shuttle fuel to OZ and it reduces the total tanker exposure to Japanese submarines (and air for the Northern ports)

Interesting discussion but you lost me on the final point. You are saying the deficit for HI is immaterial???

I suspect your point about replenishment is for ships ..which makes sense.

[wwengr]

Cap Mandrake, unless I missed something, the only thing that OZ needs HI points for is to produce aircraft in the aircraft plants. By my calcs, there is an excess of HI Points just from organic production located in OZ for this purpose. There is an excess in the necessary inputs to make the HI points required for aircraft production.

Industry Components in OZ –

Manpower – 79 (395 Manpower Points per day)
Oil – 10 (100 Oil Points per day)
Resources – 3190 (63,800 Resource Points per day)
Refinery – 55 (Converts 550 Oil Points per day into 495 Fuel Points and 55 Supply Points)
Light Industry – 2750 (Converts 41,250 Resource Points per day into 2,750 Supply Points)
Heavy Industry – 1120 (Converts 22,400 Resource Points plus 2,240 Fuel Points per day into 2,240 Heavy Industry Points and 2,240 Supply Points)
Repair Shipyard – 53 (Uses nothing, but can cause accelerated use of supply for ship repair)
Mosquito FB – 12
Wirraway – 10
Beaufort V – 12
Beaufighter 21 – 7

Note: As discussed above average HI input requirements per month for aircraft production is 1,443 or 48 per day. The organic production of 100 OZ Oil produces 90 Fuel Points per day that combines with 900 Resource Points in the Heavy Industry to produce 90 Heavy Industry Points and 90 Supply Points per day. Therefore, there is a surplus of 42 HI Points per day.

At peak performance OZ needs 63,650 Resource Points per day to meet all needs, so there is an excess of 150 Resource Points per day.

At peak performance OZ needs 2,240 Fuel Points per day, so there is a deficit of 2,150 per day.

At Peak Performance OZ needs 550 Oil Points per day, so there is a deficit of 450 per day

The only net benefit of landing fuel in OZ is convert fuel to supplies via Heavy Industry. Therefore, it is equally efficient to ship Oil to OZ as the refineries will convert 10 Oil to 9 Fuel and 1 Supply. The Heavy Industry will convert those 9 Fuel into 9 Supplies. Shipping 10 Fuel to OZ gets 10 Supplies.

Conclusions:

1) Ship Oil to OZ from wherever you can (without undue risk to the tankers) whenever you can
2) Ship Oil from Abadan to OZ
3) Keep fuel for refueling on the tankers or the Heavy Industry will convert it to supplies
4) Land whatever fuel you can to stimulate supply production in OZ
5) Don’t worry about Resources or Heavy Industry Points, you have more than you need

[n01487477]

Cap Mandrake, unless I missed something, the only thing that OZ needs HI points for is to produce aircraft in the aircraft plants. By my calcs, there is an excess of HI Points just from organic production located in OZ for this purpose. There is an excess in the necessary inputs to make the HI points required for aircraft production.

IIRC, Allies don't need HI points for any production, but it does simulate some supply creation. HI is also global not local[;)]

[Jakerson]

ORIGINAL: bklooste

It is realistic Australia needed a lot fuel for cars and trucks and the HI supported the population and production ( you dont get Wiraways from nothing [;)] ) without it they would be pretty pissed off so much for your allies.

You can always ship it to Tasmania where it wont get sucked up.

Australian hunger for external resources and trade with USA was the reason why Japanese invaded on south pacific and Guadalcanal. Japanese wanted to control those islands between USA and Australia to cut off Australia from resources its industry needed badly. Also it was historical that they did not have massive extra TK fleet that go very highly over the needs of industrial sector.

If Australia would not have so dependant from external resources whole war would have gone differently and whole Japanese trust toward south pacific would have been without reasons. Japanese did not invade for those islands between USA and Australia just for fun it was planned operation to cut off Australia from trade and then force industry to halt production.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: wwengr

Look strictly at fuel though, hauling oil is less efficient (10 Oil to 1 Refinery produces 9 Fuel and 1 Supply), but at the very beginning of the war a relatively short tanker run between DEI and OZ to get some Oil into OZ can produce some quick fuel for Industry.

There is no reason to haul Oil to Australia from the DEI. Why not just haul the FUEL there? There is more than enough of it.

The ONLY place you should consider hauling Oil as Allies is from Boela to Australia. And that's only because there's no fuel at Boela, just Oil.

[moonraker65]

But who would want to supply Australia with Fuel from the US West Coast ?? I find it much easier to supply from Cape Town to Perth the same as I do with supplies. Then you can redistribute locally as nercessary to PM or Hobart or wherever. Perhaps some players don't realise but Cape Town also produces fuel as well as supplies. Not nearly as much as Abadan but enough to keep 2 CS convoys running permanently for me to keep Australia fuelled up. So I only use the Cape Town Fuel for Australia. SEA and India is supplied from Abadan and everything else to the West I supply from the West Coast.

And of course this is a much safer route than having to dodge Jap Aircraft or SCTF's that might happen to be in the vicinity if you're shipping from the US West Coast.

[Canoerebel]

I'm not sure I understand the minutae of this thread, nor that I even want to (delving this deeply into industrial output and needs gives me a headache), but I have been hauling fuel to Oz for a year in my game without any problems.  The fuel unloaded at Perth and Darwin remains there - it hasn't been sucked dry by industrial needs.  I'm not sure about Melbourne and Sydney since I rarely haul fuel to those ports and, when I do, it's usually because a TF there needs immediate replenishment (IE, the fuel doesn't remain on hand long enough for it to be diverted to industry).

What I'm saying is:  I think you can safely haul fuel to Perth and Darwin (and therefore in all likelihood Townsvlle, Cairns, etc.) and count on it remaining in stock for later use.

That's my experience, anyhow.

[Smeulders]

Perth uses a very low amount of fuel, 40 a day according to Staff, Darwin doesn't use anything. Eastern Australia has a deficit of somewhat less than 2000 a day, so it would need more than 60000 a month to build up reserves.

[moonraker65]

ORIGINAL: Venividivici10044

Castor Troy mentions this issue in his AAR...Any thoughts. I wanted to bring it into its own topic for analysis and opinion from some of the seniors here.


" What really pisses me off is the fact that you need the tanker capacity of 100.000 tons to bring fuel to Australia MONTHLY to just feed the damned industry there that is sucking your fuel depots dry and you have no possibility to turn the damned HI off. This is the biggest joke within many I´ve "discovered" so far... This means that 25% of your total TK capacity is used just to feed Australia´s industry and you haven´t brought a single ton of fuel for your ships. Considering the fact that it takes at least a month for a TF to move from the West Coast to Australia and another month back then you will use 50% !!!! of your TK capacity just to haul fuel to OZ for nothing but to get HI points for your pool that you don´t need at all. If this is correct than I´m Buggs Bunny! Anyone ever thought about this before releasing the game? I´ve not done exact calculations but around Sidney alone is enough HI to suck your fuel depots dry. So what is the solution? Not using Australia as a staging point for operations at all? Just because you can´t deny HI to use your fuel? What a crappy BS... I seriously doubt that 50% of the US TK fleet in the Pacific was used to feed Australia´s heavy industry. Seriously..." - Quote from Castor Troy


Edited to remove the AAR link and potential damaging information related to the game in question. My apologies.

In bold is what I'm talking about. Sheer madness to resupply Oz from the US West Coast when Cape Town is much closer and a far safer route.

[moonraker65]

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

Perth uses a very low amount of fuel, 40 a day according to Staff, Darwin doesn't use anything. Eastern Australia has a deficit of somewhat less than 2000 a day, so it would need more than 60000 a month to build up reserves.

My 2 CS Fuel convoys from Cape Town to Perth carry nearly 200,000 fuel combined so I have plenty of reserves building up now.

[John Lansford]

Getting fuel to Darwin becomes increasingly difficult once the AI occupies Timor; I can get convoys to Broome but any further and they come under air and the occasional surface TF attack.

Moving fuel to Perth has it "drain away" fairly quickly; I've shipped 40,000+ tons of fuel there in one TF and had it gone within a week.  Don't know where it went (I suspect the black market) because it never showed up in the nearby ports.

[wwengr]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: wwengr

Look strictly at fuel though, hauling oil is less efficient (10 Oil to 1 Refinery produces 9 Fuel and 1 Supply), but at the very beginning of the war a relatively short tanker run between DEI and OZ to get some Oil into OZ can produce some quick fuel for Industry.

There is no reason to haul Oil to Australia from the DEI. Why not just haul the FUEL there? There is more than enough of it.

The ONLY place you should consider hauling Oil as Allies is from Boela to Australia. And that's only because there's no fuel at Boela, just Oil.

Strcitly academic argument though. North America has the refining capacity to use up all of its Oil and still has a deficit of 500. India's oil production exactly matches its refining capacity. The only surplus of oil then is in Abadan and the DEI. All of the DEI is in harms way and Abadan is a fairly long haul. Abadan has lots of fuel.

Really, the only efficient Oil haul is Babo and Boela to Darwin and this only works very early in the war. Also, it is a net oil production of 450 points per day, so a coupel of small tankers can do it. Given the scale and net benefit, it probably isn't worth the risk of conversion of tankers into Japanese victory points..

Basically, if you have a tanker in Abadan that is going to haul to OZ, then the decision is whether to haul fuel or oil. Mathematically, if there is enough of either resource it does not matter what you choose. 10 oil Landed in OZ will get 9 fuel and 1 supply out the refineries. The 9 fuel will then be converted to 9 supply by the heavy industry. 10 fuel landed in OZ will get 10 supply out of the heavy industry. Net gain = 1 supply point for every liquid point hauled to OZ.

Why this discussion? Well, I wanted to do the math and understand how to optimize what I haul to OZ. Also, I saw the assertions in several threads that hauling oil was less efficient than hauling fuel.

Edit: Strike that about hauling Oil to Darwin. No valid supply path to the refineries. You would have to haul to Cairns. Again, plenty of risk, small benefit.

[wwengr]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Getting fuel to Darwin becomes increasingly difficult once the AI occupies Timor; I can get convoys to Broome but any further and they come under air and the occasional surface TF attack.

Moving fuel to Perth has it "drain away" fairly quickly; I've shipped 40,000+ tons of fuel there in one TF and had it gone within a week.  Don't know where it went (I suspect the black market) because it never showed up in the nearby ports.

I think it got sucked up by the Australian Heavy Industry. There is a valid supply path between Perth and the Eastern Heavy Industry.

[moonraker65]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Getting fuel to Darwin becomes increasingly difficult once the AI occupies Timor; I can get convoys to Broome but any further and they come under air and the occasional surface TF attack.

Moving fuel to Perth has it "drain away" fairly quickly; I've shipped 40,000+ tons of fuel there in one TF and had it gone within a week.  Don't know where it went (I suspect the black market) because it never showed up in the nearby ports.

Depends how much you ship. As I said above, with 2 CS Convoys totalling nearly 200,000 fuel combined to Perth I now have a surplus building up. The same with supplies. I have 4 CS supply convoys for Perth running from Cape Town and that seems to do the job nicely.