That's it for me.....

[Brady]

Thiers nothing unrealistic about subs atacking multiple targets in the same phase, whats unrealistic is that normaly in WiTP/AE subs only target one ship at a time.

[TSCofield]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I completely agree, check out this BS that just happened to me. No way this could happen!
...

3 Attacks in one phase? With 2 ships sunk? Borked!

Q-Ball, you dawg, how long you think it'll take before somebody catches on?

As soon as you see the date and the USS Wasp it should have become crystal clear.

[Nemo121]

Whenever you have a statistical model there is the possibility for "kinks" to appear in that model ( sometimes known as hockey stick phenomena as there's a gradual rise or fall along most of the spectrum and then at one point results stop being linear and being being geometric.

MVR values of 36 represented the beginning of the kink in A2A combat in WiTP.

Someone back in the days of WiTP ( I'm sorry but I forget who ) did a lot of work figuring out the surface combat rules and it became pretty clear that TFs of 8 ships ( up to 4 battleline ships and 4 escorts ) did exceedingly well in combat as they maximised the likelihood that all ships would enter combat etc.

I've always found that 8 tends to be a bit of a magic number for surface combat. I can't say for certain but what I will say is this... I have a habit of putting 8 DDs in CV TFs - 2 CVs, 2 CAs, 1 BB and 2 CLAAs ( or maybe just 3 CAs if I don't have a fast BB ) plus 8 DDs. Since I've been doing that I've never had a single torpedo hit on those CV TFs.

Obviously if everyone starts doing this the sheer number of intercepts will mean sometime, somewhere a sub will get lucky but war, life and this game is all about uncertainty and maximising the odds in one's favour. It is NOT about certainty and having some simple "if x then y" causality.

[Brady]

I-19's TROM:

15 September 1942:
At 0950, while running submerged, the sound operator reports a contact with many heavy screws at 12-18S, 164-15E. Kinashi orders I-19 to periscope depth. He makes a sweep with his 'scope but no ships are in sight.

250 miles SE of Guadalcanal. Captain (later Admiral) Forrest P. Sherman's USS WASP and Captain Charles P. Mason's (later Rear Admiral) HORNET (CV-8) are escorting a reinforcement convoy of six transports carrying the 7th Marine Regiment from Espiritu Santo to reinforce Guadalcanal. The carriers are steaming in sight of each other about 8 miles apart. Each carrier forms the nucleus of a task force. Captain George H. Fort's (later Rear Admiral) battleship USS NORTH CAROLINA (BB-55) is with the HORNET task force to the NE of the WASP force.

At 1050, Kinashi raises his periscope again. This time he sees a carrier, a heavy cruiser and several destroyers (Rear Admiral Leigh Noyes' Task Force 18) bearing 045T at 9 miles. Kinashi estimates the task force's course at 330 and begins a slow approach. The Americans, zigzagging at 16 knots, change course to WNW. Then at 1120, the target group again changes course -this time to SSE. WASP makes a slow left turn into the wind to launch and recover her aircraft - and heads toward the I-19.

Kinashi estimates that his target is on course 130 degrees making 12 knots. At 1145, from 50 degrees starboard, he fires a spread of six Type 95 oxygen-propelled torpedoes at the enemy carrier from 985 yards. Two or possibly three hit the WASP and start an uncontrollable fire.

HORNET force continues a right turn to a 280 degree base course. Suddenly, an alarm is heard the tactical radio speakers from USS LANSDOWNE (DD-486) in the WASP's screen "... torpedo headed for formation, course 080!"

At 1152, a torpedo from I-19's salvo hits NORTH CAROLINA in her port bow abreast of her forward main battery turret. The blast holes the side protection below the armor belt and NORTH CAROLINA takes on a thousand tons of water. She takes on a five-degree list but counter flooding quickly levels her and she makes 25 knots. [3]

At 1154, a torpedo hits destroyer O'BRIEN's (DD-415) port quarter and another just misses HORNET. [4]

I-19 dives to 265 feet under the carrier's wake. The first depth charge explodes six minutes after the last torpedo hit. Soon the depth charges were exploding all around. American destroyers try to surround I-19 to attack together and finish her off. They rain down 30 depth charges.

At noon, WASP's avgas tanks explode. At 1515, two cruisers and destroyers abandon WASP and withdraw to the south. At 1520, Captain Sherman orders "Abandon Ship". The carrier is scuttled by five torpedoes from LANSDOWNE and sinks by the bow at about 2100. WASP suffers 193 killed and 367 wounded.

O,and-I-19 was not damaged in this atack.

[CarnageINC]

I guess we should wish Reverberate a 'Bye'

couldn't resist [8D]

[eMonticello]

Where's Paul Harvey when you need him? We really need the rest of the story... were the task force(s) parked off Russell Island and, if so, how many days?

[Titanwarrior89]

Understand were your coming from. But it is possible. More so for sub attacks than midway type results. So hang in there. As for the response you get from some people in here. Forget e'm! Not all in here are that way. You fine some things correct with the game and some out of whack.[;)]

ORIGINAL: Reverberate

How can you continue play a game where something like this is can happen? These super subs, after finishing of two CV's, turned on and sank an escorting DD. MOI=WWI

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Oct 27, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Russell Islands at 112,137

Japanese Ships
SS I-24, hits 1

Allied Ships
CV Saratoga, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CA Canberra
CA Vincennes
CA Chicago
CL Boise
CLAA San Juan
DD Laffey
DD Perkins
DD Cushing
DD Welles
DD Farenholt



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Russell Islands at 112,137

Japanese Ships
SS I-10

Allied Ships
CV Saratoga, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Canberra
CA Vincennes
CA Chicago
CL Boise
CLAA San Juan
DD Laffey
DD Perkins
DD Cushing
DD Welles
DD Farenholt



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Russell Islands at 112,137

Japanese Ships
SS I-158, hits 1

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, Torpedo hits 1
CA Canberra
CA Vincennes
CA Chicago
CL Boise
CLAA San Juan
DD Laffey
DD Perkins
DD Cushing
DD Welles
DD Farenholt


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Russell Islands at 112,137

Japanese Ships
SS I-10

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, Torpedo hits 2, heavy damage
CLAA San Juan



ues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Russell Islands at 112,137

Japanese Ships
SS I-24, hits 1, heavy damage

Allied Ships
DD Laffey, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CA Canberra
CA Vincennes
CA Chicago
CL Boise
CLAA Juneau
DD McCalla
DD Perkins
DD Cushing
DD Welles

[Menser]

True Titan.
in a "simulation" game this large with an old engine, Modders have been squeezing the most they can get from it (Kudo's to the Henderson Field Team). Some things the engine won't be able to handle and we'll just have to live with them.

[Mynok]

Well he's certainly within his rights to quit playing. But it will be his loss.

[Kwik E Mart]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I completely agree, check out this BS that just happened to me. No way this could happen!

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Sep 15, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Lunga at 114,139

Japanese Ships
SS I-19, hits 1

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
BB North Carolina
CA Canberra
CA Vincennes
CA Chicago
CL Boise
CLAA San Juan
DD O'Brien
DD Laffey
DD Perkins
DD Cushing
DD Knavey
DD Farenholt
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Lunga at 114,139

Japanese Ships
SS I-19

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB North Carolina, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CA Canberra
CA Vincennes
CA Chicago
CL Boise
CLAA San Juan
DD O'Brien
DD Laffey
DD Perkins
DD Cushing
DD Knavey
DD Farenholt
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Lunga at 114,139

Japanese Ships
SS I-19, hits 1

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB North Carolina
CA Canberra
CA Vincennes
CA Chicago
CL Boise
CLAA San Juan
DD O'Brien, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Laffey
DD Perkins
DD Cushing
DD Knavey
DD Farenholt

3 Attacks in one phase? With 2 ships sunk? Borked!

This is even WORSE than history...the I-19 did her dirty work with one salvo, correct? This appears to be three separate attacks... Q-Ball, you got some 'spaining to do! [:-]

[Torplexed]

ORIGINAL: Reverberate

How can you continue play a game where something like this is can happen?

Tojo loves Allied players who throw in the towel at their first setback. [:'(]

[ETF]

Kinda a massive setback no? Seems this is happening in more than one or two games. Is this more an uncommon event rather than an exception to the rule?

[sfbaytf]

Its Nov 44 in my PBEM game and the IJN subs are as deadly as ever. Lost a CVE recently and had another one hit. Putting 8 DD's does not nulify the subs. The only dfference is allied ASW is better than 42-43. They do seem to be overpowered. I've just learned to live with it. I send out tons of DE's and PF's to hunt them down and just hope for the best.

They also have a nasty habit of surfacing when damaged by depth charges and hedgehogs and firing torpedoes and surface guns -after being hit by 5 inch shells, 40mm and 20mm guns fired from the ASW ships that forced it to surface.

Also never let your carrier TF's get engaged by an enemy surface TF. Even with BB's, CA's, CL's and DD' in the TF, your carriers will more than likely get shelled and hit-even if the enemy surface TF is outnumbered.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I completely agree, check out this BS that just happened to me. No way this could happen!

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Sep 15, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Lunga at 114,139

Japanese Ships
SS I-19, hits 1

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
BB North Carolina
CA Canberra
CA Vincennes
CA Chicago
CL Boise
CLAA San Juan
DD O'Brien
DD Laffey
DD Perkins
DD Cushing
DD Knavey
DD Farenholt
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Lunga at 114,139

Japanese Ships
SS I-19

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB North Carolina, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CA Canberra
CA Vincennes
CA Chicago
CL Boise
CLAA San Juan
DD O'Brien
DD Laffey
DD Perkins
DD Cushing
DD Knavey
DD Farenholt
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Lunga at 114,139

Japanese Ships
SS I-19, hits 1

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB North Carolina
CA Canberra
CA Vincennes
CA Chicago
CL Boise
CLAA San Juan
DD O'Brien, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Laffey
DD Perkins
DD Cushing
DD Knavey
DD Farenholt

3 Attacks in one phase? With 2 ships sunk? Borked!

Absolutely incredulous!!! Imagine that... that could not possibly happen in real life...or could it[;)]

EDIT: Man I was late to the party again...

[Menser]

The DD Knavey was present IRL Tree?

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: Reverberate

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
[:D]
You lose two CVs and a DD and you think that's somehow not within the realm of possibility?

Not in any game that I intend to play......

Hmmm. Ok, so long.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I completely agree, check out this BS that just happened to me. No way this could happen!

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Sep 15, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Lunga at 114,139

Japanese Ships
SS I-19, hits 1

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
BB North Carolina
CA Canberra
CA Vincennes
CA Chicago
CL Boise
CLAA San Juan
DD O'Brien
DD Laffey
DD Perkins
DD Cushing
DD Knavey
DD Farenholt
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Lunga at 114,139

Japanese Ships
SS I-19

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB North Carolina, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CA Canberra
CA Vincennes
CA Chicago
CL Boise
CLAA San Juan
DD O'Brien
DD Laffey
DD Perkins
DD Cushing
DD Knavey
DD Farenholt
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Lunga at 114,139

Japanese Ships
SS I-19, hits 1

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB North Carolina
CA Canberra
CA Vincennes
CA Chicago
CL Boise
CLAA San Juan
DD O'Brien, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Laffey
DD Perkins
DD Cushing
DD Knavey
DD Farenholt

3 Attacks in one phase? With 2 ships sunk? Borked!

The same thing happened to me, I swear!

[Grfin Zeppelin]

Fishfodder [:'(]

[koontz]

Well thats me.

When this game started ive focus 90% of my subs
to hunt down CV.

iirc ive had 2-3 attacks on CV b4 all torpedos missed from what ive now till now.

And not a single sub loss so far.


Think the trick is in ASW is to use CV A/C on 10% search 10% ASW

[bklooste]

Saratoga attack is similar.

ORIGINAL: Brady

I-19's TROM:

15 September 1942:
At 0950, while running submerged, the sound operator reports a contact with many heavy screws at 12-18S, 164-15E. Kinashi orders I-19 to periscope depth. He makes a sweep with his 'scope but no ships are in sight.

250 miles SE of Guadalcanal. Captain (later Admiral) Forrest P. Sherman's USS WASP and Captain Charles P. Mason's (later Rear Admiral) HORNET (CV-8) are escorting a reinforcement convoy of six transports carrying the 7th Marine Regiment from Espiritu Santo to reinforce Guadalcanal. The carriers are steaming in sight of each other about 8 miles apart. Each carrier forms the nucleus of a task force. Captain George H. Fort's (later Rear Admiral) battleship USS NORTH CAROLINA (BB-55) is with the HORNET task force to the NE of the WASP force.

At 1050, Kinashi raises his periscope again. This time he sees a carrier, a heavy cruiser and several destroyers (Rear Admiral Leigh Noyes' Task Force 18) bearing 045T at 9 miles. Kinashi estimates the task force's course at 330 and begins a slow approach. The Americans, zigzagging at 16 knots, change course to WNW. Then at 1120, the target group again changes course -this time to SSE. WASP makes a slow left turn into the wind to launch and recover her aircraft - and heads toward the I-19.

Kinashi estimates that his target is on course 130 degrees making 12 knots. At 1145, from 50 degrees starboard, he fires a spread of six Type 95 oxygen-propelled torpedoes at the enemy carrier from 985 yards. Two or possibly three hit the WASP and start an uncontrollable fire.

HORNET force continues a right turn to a 280 degree base course. Suddenly, an alarm is heard the tactical radio speakers from USS LANSDOWNE (DD-486) in the WASP's screen "... torpedo headed for formation, course 080!"

At 1152, a torpedo from I-19's salvo hits NORTH CAROLINA in her port bow abreast of her forward main battery turret. The blast holes the side protection below the armor belt and NORTH CAROLINA takes on a thousand tons of water. She takes on a five-degree list but counter flooding quickly levels her and she makes 25 knots. [3]

At 1154, a torpedo hits destroyer O'BRIEN's (DD-415) port quarter and another just misses HORNET. [4]

I-19 dives to 265 feet under the carrier's wake. The first depth charge explodes six minutes after the last torpedo hit. Soon the depth charges were exploding all around. American destroyers try to surround I-19 to attack together and finish her off. They rain down 30 depth charges.

At noon, WASP's avgas tanks explode. At 1515, two cruisers and destroyers abandon WASP and withdraw to the south. At 1520, Captain Sherman orders "Abandon Ship". The carrier is scuttled by five torpedoes from LANSDOWNE and sinks by the bow at about 2100. WASP suffers 193 killed and 367 wounded.

O,and-I-19 was not damaged in this atack.