Diplomacy and Finlandization?

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

ORIGINAL: taltamir

the usa holds bases all over the world... we have one in germany, in japan, etc.. those bases are considered of us sovereignty.

With respect, those bases are leased from those countries and it is not sovereign U.S. territory. In each case a "status of forces agreement" (SOFA) is established where the specific rules/contract is made between the U.S. and the host country.

Obviously there was a diplomatic aspect to it, the USA Can't just plonk bases in other countries without their agreement.
But the way I saw the argument was:
Person 1. I should be able to diplomatically build bases in their territory if we have defensive pact
Person 2. No, because its their sovereign territory which is immutable.
Me. IRL there are bases in other countries being made diplomatically.

So yes, I get it that the USA asks permission to hold those bases... I am just saying that "defense pact" sorta is, and if it isn't, then there should be an option to allow such permissions.

Believe it or not, the same is true for the guantanamo bay base.

I was already aware of it, I thought it would be better to refer to the ones in germany and japan to avoid derailment.

There are few places in the world that are covered by "extraterritoriality" agreements. The United Nations headquarters in New York city is an example of one. Also embassies are considered sovereign territory, but that isn't completely true. Specific agreements exist for embassies as well and are established when diplomatic relations are established between nations. For instance, a host country has the right to expel a mission--although normally they simply expel the ambassador.

All true, but none of it contradicts my point or his point... and that is that you CAN diplomatically establish "bases" in another's territory as long as you do it diplomatically and in a reciprocal manner.

ORIGINAL: Shark7
But in the game text, we don't have the option to make those agreements, so my argument is that a 'Mutual Defense Pact' should consider those agreements inclusive. Add the diplomatic options to place bases and pay 'rent' for them, and I'm all for it. Until then, the MDP should cover it.

That was EXACTLY my point, sorry I did not make it as clear.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: thiosk

In my current game, I was the big dog on the block, in a peaceful galaxy.

The alpha dog. Small military though, but huge construction potential.

I was using construction ships to repair a damaged abandoned fleet-- when a tiny 4-star neighbor jumped in and tried to snag one or two of them. I opened fire and took out the construction ship.

The empire shortly thereafter declared war, and the entire galaxy fell upon one another.

There was no fear factor, and no hope of victory. A state (previously allied to me until the war) did take a planet from me, but my retaliation was swift and crushing.

happens to me all the time... In one game it wasn't just some piddling "ancient ships" they were after, but my world annihilator project.... well I wasn't gonna let that stand. in that game I had 300 planets, second largest 60, next 30, then 5,5,2,2,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 respectively for the rest of the empires... and every single one declared war on me (the first few due to defensive treaties, the next because I had suddenly horrible reputation because I was in war with everyone AND they were jealous"

[Malevolence]

I agree with both your posts taltamir.

[taltamir]

btw... i now overcome this issue by aggressively slaying pirates (my reputation is perfect; if i do something evil and it dips to dubious, it gain it right back), never trading my maps (I don't want them to come after my stuff), and never entering a protection agreement (refusing to go to war harms your rep, going to war harms your rep, its lose lose... plus its better to be colonizing planets while other empires fight rather then actually fight yourself), only free trade agreements (good rep, and the one you have it will love you now and don't care as much about your rep) and subjugations (subjugation doesn't bother anyone, if someone else declares war on you then YOUR rep goes down, a subjugated races is very unlikely to declare war on you... therefore subjugating improves your rep). Also, make peace ASAP, ESPECIALLY if it is against a race who is a major component of your empire (races hate it when you fight any empire of their race...)

following those simple steps:
1. most empires like me
2. I decide who to fight and when most of the time (well, I am still always in a war with 1 or 2 empires out of the dozen)
3. my rep is excellent
4. my citizen's morale is high because my rep is good, and because i am probably not fighting an empire of their race. and they pay more taxes

[Gertjan]

Taltamir, good strategy advise. This is becoming a useful thread. However a protection agreement seems useful if you are relatively small and can get it with a large and relatively peaceful and cautious empire. Like a way of insurance. Question: How do you know if a race is a major component of your empire?

[BigWolfChris]

I found it funny when an Empire declared war on me with

"We shall crush your feeble dying empire"

2 weeks later, I had took out their 2 colonies with my reserve fleet...
I'm flying around with a military power of over 10x that of the entire galaxy combined

Infact the only real enemy I have is war-weariness, yet it doesn't stop AI from acting all big around me... like they could actually do anything harmful
For the hell of it, I declared war on the race with the 2nd largest military, 2 months later they now lack one, even the moon around their capital (yes, their CAPITAL) revolted and joined me, that in itself is wrong, I would only except it if that system was all they had left, but it wasn't

[taltamir]

well... it makes sense if you literally exterminated the entire armed forces... the moon likely had a crummy economy and high taxes and watched the lavish quality of life of the capital while they suffered; now finally they are free to rebel as there are no armed forces to ensure they do not (Also, you probably destroyed their space dock with its hospital and stuff)... (I am mixing some fluff explanations with crunch of my knowledge of the AI's policies... namely, overtaxing underdeveloped colonies and pampering rich ones).

another thing is... if a race hates you and declares wars on you often, and you have many of them in your empire... each time you are in war with them it is devastating to your economy... with the bigger empires try to get FTA, with the smaller ones either subjugation or completely annihilate them... an annihilated empire can't declare war on you... and when you are not in war with their race they don't hate you and aren't revolting.
this one is a rather difficult and advanced tactics... it takes some experience to decide when it is worth the cost (long period of revolting planets due to prolonged war with their race) to do so (to exterminate all EMPIRES of a race)...

remember to always keep your rep high though... you can ill afford it to go too low or your planets revolt (pay no tax, produce no goods, build nothing), might join the enemy, and you might even have civil war (half your empire splits to form a new empire. at war with you.. AND morale is even worse because now your dominant species is upset that you are at war with "their race", thus you have even more revolting planets...)

[Malevolence]

Good advice taltamir, despite the fact that I want to play species-centric and crush everyone else under the boots of my stormtroopers.... everyone except for maybe those blue chicks. They're hot.

[taltamir]

Sexy blue space elf matriarchy... a staple of sci fi that I hope will be around forever ...

also, from the game point of view the IDEAL is to absorb a species into your empire and then destroy every empire "of that race" while keeping that race as a major population in your empire (for the bonuses)... that way they will never get super upset when you go to war, since you aren't at war "with their race" (you are at war with other empires that might have a sizable majority of their race, but its not the "race" of the empire)

[Malevolence]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Sexy blue space elf matriarchy... a staple of sci fi that I hope will be around forever ...

also, from the game point of view the IDEAL is to absorb a species into your empire and then destroy every empire "of that race" while keeping that race as a major population in your empire (for the bonuses)... that way they will never get super upset when you go to war, since you aren't at war "with their race" (you are at war with other empires that might have a sizable majority of their race, but its not the "race" of the empire)

Absorbing other species diminishes our purity. It would be ok I guess, but I can't enslave them or pick them up in cargo freighters and then space them. You know, good times.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Sexy blue space elf matriarchy... a staple of sci fi that I hope will be around forever ...

also, from the game point of view the IDEAL is to absorb a species into your empire and then destroy every empire "of that race" while keeping that race as a major population in your empire (for the bonuses)... that way they will never get super upset when you go to war, since you aren't at war "with their race" (you are at war with other empires that might have a sizable majority of their race, but its not the "race" of the empire)

Absorbing other species diminishes our purity. It would be ok I guess, but I can't enslave them or pick them up in cargo freighters and then space them. You know, good times.

I know what you mean, it would make for an interesting game to try as such a method of play presents quite a handicap.

although personally i like the idea of brining aliens under my total and absolute rule. I like to pretend I am playing a "hands off dictatorship psudeo democracy"... where I am the totalitarian ruler of my empire... but MANAGEMENT is done via merit and voting by the populace to choose representatives who make most of the laws and regulations. (they just defer to me when I decide to intervene on that rare occasion)... those bonuses to corruption and research are just too good to pass ... plus its what I would do IRL if I could... (lol, "when I grow up, I want to be emperor of the galaxy).

[Malevolence]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

although personally i like the idea of brining aliens under my total and absolute rule. I like to pretend I am playing a "hands off dictatorship psudeo democracy"... where I am the totalitarian ruler of my empire... but MANAGEMENT is done via merit and voting by the populace to choose representatives who make most of the laws and regulations. (they just defer to me when I decide to intervene on that rare occasion)... those bonuses to corruption and research are just too good to pass ... plus its what I would do IRL if I could... (lol, "when I grow up, I want to be emperor of the galaxy).

True enough. For me, it's like gathering up all the cats from the neighborhood and brining them under my total and absolute rule as if they were equals. I'd rather use them to make a fur coat.

[taltamir]

ah, but if you make all the cats into fur coats, there will be no more new cats and the fur coats eventually fall apart.
if you keep a sizeable population of it only converting a few into fur coats you could have fur coats forever...

(dear science what terrible things am I saying ... hilarious though)

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Sexy blue space elf matriarchy... a staple of sci fi that I hope will be around forever ...

also, from the game point of view the IDEAL is to absorb a species into your empire and then destroy every empire "of that race" while keeping that race as a major population in your empire (for the bonuses)... that way they will never get super upset when you go to war, since you aren't at war "with their race" (you are at war with other empires that might have a sizable majority of their race, but its not the "race" of the empire)

Absorbing other species diminishes our purity. It would be ok I guess, but I can't enslave them or pick them up in cargo freighters and then space them. You know, good times.

That is a big problem, if you capture their planets, you don't get a choice but to assimilate them. If you bombard them to extinction, you'll be at war with the rest of the galaxy. Would much rather either use them to mine spice on Kessel or turn them into Soylent Green. Especially the bugs, I hate bugs...

[Flaviusx]

Are any of you guys getting Way of the Dark? I basically stopped having war weariness issues once I found it and switched to it.
 
The hard part is finding it. Especially in the larger games.
 
 

[taltamir]

way of the dark is like a crappier version of way of the ancients. the statistics are completely identical. But with way of ancients everyone else likes you (so you can manipulate them and declare war at your leasure) while with way of the darkness everyone hates you... AND switching to way of ancients carries no penalties (normally switching you risk a civil war), with way of darkness civil war much more likely then a normal switch.

Villians are better off using way of ancients.
Also, yes those governments eliminate war weariness... and vastly improve morale, I love them.

As for bugs... the bugs give you -70% war weariness ... so they are one of the best races in the game.

[Flaviusx]

Can't seem to find way of the ancients for some reason, I always get of the dark in my games. But I haven't found it difficult to manage diplomatically, either. Some of the races seem to be ok with it.
 
I like playing the rats and have never gotten a civil war from switching over to way of the dark.

[Sarkus]

In general it seems to me there should be a diplomatic option (or it should be part of one of the existing options) wherein the two sides agree that systems they are already established in are off limits to the other empire as long as the two sides are at least to a certain level of understanding. It seems stupid to me that an otherwise friendly empire would colonize a planet in a system without getting the earlier arrival's ok. Afterall, border agreements are a big part of diplomacy, something that seems to be ignored in this game. One of the biggest improvements they ever made to the Civ series was adding borders the AI would respect, IMHO.

[Gertjan]

Agreed Sarkus

[Erik Rutins]

I agree, adding some diplomacy options in this regard would be great if we can do it.