Diplomacy and Finlandization?

[Malevolence]

I have noticed that smaller, much less powerful empires commit suicidal acts when dealing with their much more powerful neighbors and even their close allies. They quickly fall on their swords regarding trivial slights, like armed merchantmen, colonies sharing the same system, etc.

Do you think there should be a greater amount of "Finlandization" added to AI empire's diplomacy?

I suggest that whatever change in reputation and relationship score results from such events should be heavily factored by the relative strength of the parties. I also recommend that this "relative strength" calculation not just take into account bilateral comparative analysis, but also account for coalitions that are formed by mutual defense pacts and free trade agreements.

[Wade1000]

I agree. AI should be a constant top priority; even during and after new features are added to ensure that the AI competently uses them.

[Joram]

I'll give you props for actually bringing Finlandization into the conversation!  [:)]

[Flaviusx]

There is a protectorate diplomatic option which more or less accomplishes this.

[Cindar]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

There is a protectorate diplomatic option which more or less accomplishes this.

Yeah, but protectorates seem to like to revolt a lot still. It seems that when I have 90 colonies, my enemy has 5, and I generously offer not to wipe them out from the galaxy, they shouldn't go ahead and backstab me the week later and hope that I'm still going to be nice.

[taltamir]

i always said there should be a "fear" factor for the AI interaction...
a 5 planet "empire" with no tech shouldn't be declaring war on a 300 planet empire with much higher tech and massive fleets. nor should they ever reject free trade, protectorate, etc offered by said empire.

[Malevolence]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

There is a protectorate diplomatic option which more or less accomplishes this.

I see little value in the protectorate or subjugation in these terms. You get some money and you get to see his map/ships. That's it. He still builds colonies in your systems and tells you to go to hell. You can't even demand his technology or force discounts in trade.

Even when subjugated the AI empire will readily re-declare war within minutes of ending the previous war.

[monsterfurby]

I agree - since the "we want your stuff" modifier is pretty heavy, there should be a "please don't throw your stuff at me" modifier as well, around the point when the stronger empire has, say, twice as much firepower assembled in their fleet as the smaller one.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

There is a protectorate diplomatic option which more or less accomplishes this.

I see little value in the protectorate or subjugation in these terms. You get some money and you get to see his map/ships. That's it. He still builds colonies in your systems and tells you to go to hell. You can't even demand his technology or force discounts in trade.

Even when subjugated the AI empire will readily re-declare war within minutes of ending the previous war.

Agreed to all of that. Although I do find value in subjugation in that the AI empire will NOT readily re-declare war... it MIGHT redeclare war, and some do... but there seem to be a hefty modifier against it... In some games on species that instinctively hate me have redeclared war from subjugation, and even then rarely... most other empires stayed subjugated forever.

[SiempreCiego]

I think you have an interesting idea. Yes the Diplamtic options should be a bit more complex/varied. I think this game, which I am quite addicted too at the moment would benefit from a more Space Empires 5 style diplomacy.
That way you can negotiate whether already colonised systems can be colonised by another empire. Form grand alliances, specify the level of trade (maybe up to free trade area).

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: monsterfurby

I agree - since the "we want your stuff" modifier is pretty heavy, there should be a "please don't throw your stuff at me" modifier as well, around the point when the stronger empire has, say, twice as much firepower assembled in their fleet as the smaller one.

Another thing, if you have a mutual defense pact, should the AI even worry about the resort base I build in one of their systems? Mutual defense means I am pledged to defend you if you are attacked. That is going to be hard to do if you don't allow me basing options in your territory. Especially something like a resort base that is only lightly armored and armed and is in essense a civilian facility.

The one that really irks me is that the AI will build a colony in my home system, then get pissed off because they want all my stuff. WTH?! 1) We're allies 2) you chose to colonize in my territory 3) GET YOUR OWN STUFF! [:@]

[Malevolence]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: monsterfurby

I agree - since the "we want your stuff" modifier is pretty heavy, there should be a "please don't throw your stuff at me" modifier as well, around the point when the stronger empire has, say, twice as much firepower assembled in their fleet as the smaller one.

Another thing, if you have a mutual defense pact, should the AI even worry about the resort base I build in one of their systems? Mutual defense means I am pledged to defend you if you are attacked. That is going to be hard to do if you don't allow me basing options in your territory. Especially something like a resort base that is only lightly armored and armed and is in essense a civilian facility.

The one that really irks me is that the AI will build a colony in my home system, then get pissed off because they want all my stuff. WTH?! 1) We're allies 2) you chose to colonize in my territory 3) GET YOUR OWN STUFF! [:@]

Your point is well made, but "sovereign territory" in the land-based sense is fairly immutable. For instance, whose laws are followed on your resort base? ... not even mentioning the fact there is no kick back to the territory holder.

I also note with some humor that the U.S. Navy (usually performed by the U.S. Coast Guard) conducts an operation each year by sailing into the Hudson Bay. This is done to remind Canada that the Hudson Bay doesn't belong to them. I would say the U.S. and Canada are very close allies.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: monsterfurby

I agree - since the "we want your stuff" modifier is pretty heavy, there should be a "please don't throw your stuff at me" modifier as well, around the point when the stronger empire has, say, twice as much firepower assembled in their fleet as the smaller one.

Another thing, if you have a mutual defense pact, should the AI even worry about the resort base I build in one of their systems? Mutual defense means I am pledged to defend you if you are attacked. That is going to be hard to do if you don't allow me basing options in your territory. Especially something like a resort base that is only lightly armored and armed and is in essense a civilian facility.

The one that really irks me is that the AI will build a colony in my home system, then get pissed off because they want all my stuff. WTH?! 1) We're allies 2) you chose to colonize in my territory 3) GET YOUR OWN STUFF! [:@]

Your point is well made, but "sovereign territory" in the land-based sense is fairly immutable. For instance, whose laws are followed on your resort base? ... not even mentioning the fact there is no kick back to the territory holder.

I also note with some humor that the U.S. Navy (usually performed by the U.S. Coast Guard) conducts an operation each year by sailing into the Hudson Bay. This is done to remind Canada that the Hudson Bay doesn't belong to them. I would say the U.S. and Canada are very close allies.

the usa holds bases all over the world... we have one in germany, in japan, etc.. those bases are considered of us sovereignty.

[Resan]

Maybe some kind of diplomatic option where you can ask for the right to place a base in another empires solarsystem.

[Malevolence]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

the usa holds bases all over the world... we have one in germany, in japan, etc.. those bases are considered of us sovereignty.

With respect, those bases are leased from those countries and it is not sovereign U.S. territory. In each case a "status of forces agreement" (SOFA) is established where the specific rules/contract is made between the U.S. and the host country.

Believe it or not, the same is true for the guantanamo bay base.

There are few places in the world that are covered by "extraterritoriality" agreements. The United Nations headquarters in New York city is an example of one. Also embassies are considered sovereign territory, but that isn't completely true. Specific agreements exist for embassies as well and are established when diplomatic relations are established between nations. For instance, a host country has the right to expel a mission--although normally they simply expel the ambassador.

[Gertjan]

Interesting discussion. I agree with your point Malevolence.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

ORIGINAL: taltamir

the usa holds bases all over the world... we have one in germany, in japan, etc.. those bases are considered of us sovereignty.

With respect, those bases are leased from those countries and it is not sovereign U.S. territory. In each case a "status of forces agreement" (SOFA) is established where the specific rules/contract is made between the U.S. and the host country.

Believe it or not, the same is true for the guantanamo bay base.

There are few places in the world that are covered by "extraterritoriality" agreements. The United Nations headquarters in New York city is an example of one. Also embassies are considered sovereign territory, but that isn't completely true. Specific agreements exist for embassies as well and are established when diplomatic relations are established between nations. For instance, a host country has the right to expel a mission--although normally they simply expel the ambassador.

But in the game text, we don't have the option to make those agreements, so my argument is that a 'Mutual Defense Pact' should consider those agreements inclusive. Add the diplomatic options to place bases and pay 'rent' for them, and I'm all for it. Until then, the MDP should cover it.

[Malevolence]

Indeed, as I wrote, your point is well made.

[BigWolfChris]

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

Your point is well made, but "sovereign territory" in the land-based sense is fairly immutable. For instance, whose laws are followed on your resort base? ... not even mentioning the fact there is no kick back to the territory holder.

I also note with some humor that the U.S. Navy (usually performed by the U.S. Coast Guard) conducts an operation each year by sailing into the Hudson Bay. This is done to remind Canada that the Hudson Bay doesn't belong to them. I would say the U.S. and Canada are very close allies.

I would say that, like real life, bases should only be established if both sides agree to allow it
There should be a few treaties for this
1. Civilian Construction Treaty - This would allow unarmed bases to be built
The system owner would be charged with defence of said bases, in return they would get say 10% of income and research generated from each base

2. Military Construction Treaty - This would allow for armed bases to be built
The system owner no longer has to defend said bases if they choose not, but must allow for weapons on board the stations, in return they would get 25% of income and research generated from each base

Obviously numbers can be altered, and I would say passage of armed/unarmed ships should be decided with a different set of treaties


As for laws... since laws don't actually exist within the game, it would be going off-topic and only make a difference too those role-playing at this time (which would be their choses anyway)

[thiosk]

In my current game, I was the big dog on the block, in a peaceful galaxy.

The alpha dog. Small military though, but huge construction potential.

I was using construction ships to repair a damaged abandoned fleet-- when a tiny 4-star neighbor jumped in and tried to snag one or two of them. I opened fire and took out the construction ship.

The empire shortly thereafter declared war, and the entire galaxy fell upon one another.

There was no fear factor, and no hope of victory. A state (previously allied to me until the war) did take a planet from me, but my retaliation was swift and crushing.