What Ever Happened to Forced March

[Dietrich1941]

Look how many SPI people there are here! The solution for the Germans was building those mobile supply units and converting as many Infantry to 8-8 Pz Gren units. If you were doing production.

[buchand]

Followed Zorch's link to Comsim and pictures and talks of maps, counters, crt's etc took me back 40 years +. Do you think in 40 years tiem when youngsters are using virtual reality and embedded controllers etc they will go all gooey eyed looking at pictures of monitors and mouses [mice?] used for old fashioned wargames?

BTW all SPI monster games ruled and DNO was king! [:)]

[KGrob]

I like the idea of permitting infantry units to "force march" from one location to another. Marching is a big part of moving ground forces and marching fast is highly desired in some situations. A forced march is simply another option for ground movement as is moving infantry by truck, or rail, or by some other means.

As the O/P suggests, there should be a penalty however, perhaps higher attrition/loss of equipment or something similar.

I don't see the absence or presesnce of a forced march feature being a huge issue although it would be a nice addition IMO (few of the many features of this game are "huge issues" by themselves...but the totality of the features makes for an enjoyable game).

[KGrob]

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

ORIGINAL: findmeifyoucan
As pointed out before yes you can temporarily motorize your infantry but it costs you. They are two completely different games. As I enjoyed that SPI games extensively in my 20's I expect to enjoy this game extensively in my 50's. lol

LOL! Same here!

+1

A lot of us old fogeys around it seems.

Fifty? Bah! You guys are still wet behind the ears.

[marty_01]

ORIGINAL: KGrob

I like the idea of permitting infantry units to "force march" from one location to another. Marching is a big part of moving ground forces and marching fast is highly desired in some situations. A forced march is simply another option for ground movement as is moving infantry by truck, or rail, or by some other means.

As the O/P suggests, there should be a penalty however, perhaps higher attrition/loss of equipment or something similar.

I don't see the absence or presesnce of a forced march feature being a huge issue although it would be a nice addition IMO (few of the many features of this game are "huge issues" by themselves...but the totality of the features makes for an enjoyable game).

You might find this snippet of interest. I scanned from one of David Glantz's works -- "The Initial Period of the War on the Eastern Front, 22 June -- August 1941". It's actually part of the Seminar Proceedings for the 4th Art of War Symposium and included in a paper written for the Symposium by Kenneth Macksey entitled: "The Smolensk Operation, 7 July - 7 August 1941". I highlighted the passage of interest in grey -- although there some additional context material that is of interest and included in the snippet.

http://img851.imageshack.us/f/germaninfantrymarchingr.jpg/

30-miles a day is about 48.3 kilometers/day. Close to 5-hexes a day in game terms. Assuming you maintained this rate for 5 days of the week, that would put an infantry divisions movement rate at about 24-hexes\turn. If this pace were maintained for 6-days of the weekly turn, it equates to an Infantry units movement rate being about 29-hexes\turn (etc.)

In-game movement rates for Axis Infantry Divisions early in the 1941 campaign are typically about 10 to 15 -- occasionally you see high morale units and Jaeger and Mountain divisions sporting a movement rate of 15 to 16. But these are not hexes\turn as I have indicated above. Moreover, an infantry division’s movement rate is halved when marching through enemy controlled or impending control hexes. In-game German infantry divisions in the crucial maneuver part of the 1941 campaign are really kind of hamstrung in terms of the amount of territory they can cover in a given turn -- at least when compared with a historical march rate of 48.3 kilometers/day. When moving through enemy controlled hexes and impending control a German Infantry unit is only covering about 50km/WEEK to 75Km/WEEK vs. the ~50Km/DAY cited in the Kenneth Macksey Paper.

Doubtless this is part of the reason we see German players complaining that that can't form proper pockets in game. The Axis mechanized units end up doing almost all of the work associated with pocket formation as well as trying to keep a pocket closed because Axis infantry is typically too far in the rear to provide additional oomph to pocket formation, maintaining pocket closure, and pocket destruction. At least this has been my game observations in head-to-head when the battle moves beyond the Polish-Russian frontier and into the hinterland.

Having said all this, and having done a bit of marching in the Army as well as a fair bit of hiking, I think it pretty safe to say that 48-kilometers a day is a lot of ground to cover on foot. Therefore I reckon the 48km/day has to be reflective of a short term forced march rate of movement. But I'd argue that being able to cover these sorts of distances in-game on a short term basis would put a rather different spin on a players in game capability and how they go about planning their big pushes.

[Ridgeway]

ORIGINAL: marty_01

ORIGINAL: KGrob

I like the idea of permitting infantry units to "force march" from one location to another. Marching is a big part of moving ground forces and marching fast is highly desired in some situations. A forced march is simply another option for ground movement as is moving infantry by truck, or rail, or by some other means.

As the O/P suggests, there should be a penalty however, perhaps higher attrition/loss of equipment or something similar.

I don't see the absence or presesnce of a forced march feature being a huge issue although it would be a nice addition IMO (few of the many features of this game are "huge issues" by themselves...but the totality of the features makes for an enjoyable game).

You might find this snippet of interest. I scanned from one of David Glantz's works -- "The Initial Period of the War on the Eastern Front, 22 June -- August 1941". It's actually part of the Seminar Proceedings for the 4th Art of War Symposium and included in a paper written for the Symposium by Kenneth Macksey entitled: "The Smolensk Operation, 7 July - 7 August 1941". I highlighted the passage of interest in grey -- although there some additional context material that is of interest and included in the snippet.

http://img851.imageshack.us/f/germaninfantrymarchingr.jpg/

30-miles a day is about 48.3 kilometers/day. Close to 5-hexes a day in game terms. Assuming you maintained this rate for 5 days of the week, that would put an infantry divisions movement rate at about 24-hexes\turn. If this pace were maintained for 6-days of the weekly turn, it equates to an Infantry units movement rate being about 29-hexes\turn (etc.)

In-game movement rates for Axis Infantry Divisions early in the 1941 campaign are typically about 10 to 15 -- occasionally you see high morale units and Jaeger and Mountain divisions sporting a movement rate of 15 to 16. But these are not hexes\turn as I have indicated above. Moreover, an infantry division’s movement rate is halved when marching through enemy controlled or impending control hexes. In-game German infantry divisions in the crucial maneuver part of the 1941 campaign are really kind of hamstrung in terms of the amount of territory they can cover in a given turn -- at least when compared with a historical march rate of 48.3 kilometers/day. When moving through enemy controlled hexes and impending control a German Infantry unit is only covering about 50km/WEEK to 75Km/WEEK vs. the ~50Km/DAY cited in the Kenneth Macksey Paper.

Doubtless this is part of the reason we see German players complaining that that can't form proper pockets in game. The Axis mechanized units end up doing almost all of the work associated with pocket formation as well as trying to keep a pocket closed because Axis infantry is typically too far in the rear to provide additional oomph to pocket formation, maintaining pocket closure, and pocket destruction. At least this has been my game observations in head-to-head when the battle moves beyond the Polish-Russian frontier and into the hinterland.

Having said all this, and having done a bit of marching in the Army as well as a fair bit of hiking, I think it pretty safe to say that 48-kilometers a day is a lot of ground to cover on foot. Therefore I reckon the 48km/day has to be reflective of a short term forced march rate of movement. But I'd argue that being able to cover these sorts of distances in-game on a short term basis would put a rather different spin on a players in game capability and how they go about planning their big pushes.

A major flaw in your analysis is that each hex equals 10 miles (not kms).

Moreover, I don't believe Macksey's figure of 30 mi/per day, except in very limited circumstances. First off, I don't think it is possible for men in full pack to march 30 miles per day for an extended period in the middle of a Russian July, especially when they are not marching from prepared position to prepared position. Second, even if the men could do it, they would not be moving as a combat ready force, because all of their logistics would be trailing far behind (as the article mentions). I actually think that the 16 mps that certain inf units get is pushing the envelope.

[KGrob]

Ya, I spent some time in the infantry when I was young (11B for the record). I carried a rifle and a pack and some beans and some bullets and we all shared in carrying things like crew served weapons, ammo for those weapons, and so on. I understand about the different paces for different situations...marching along a road is a lot different than going cross country.

We had a sort of "standard" march that we used to get from place to place...we moved some long distances...once we marched from Yakima Training Center to Fort Lewis Washington (Look that up on a map). But at times, we also moved more quickly for shorter periods of time.

I think adding the feature is doable. But, again, I don't see it as a big thing. It's very difficult for infantry to force march for long periods of time while carrying equipment. The attrition rate can be high.

[marty_01]

ooohps [:D]. yup, the scale is miles not Km.

That would put the quoted Mackey figure -- in game terms -- at about 18-hexes per turn to 21-hexes per turn (180 to 210 miles per week) vs. the current in-game movement rates of for infantry fomrations of about 5 to 8-hexes per turn (50 to 80 miles per week) when marching through non-controlled hexes.

And to KGrob: [:D] Yup i know where Yakima is. I'm just down the road from Ft Lewis.

[marty_01]

US Army FM 21-18 (ARMY FIELD MANUAL 21-18), FOOT MARCHES

4-20. FORCED MARCHES

A normal foot march day is 8 hours, for a distance of 32 km at a rate of 4 kph. The maximum distances recommended for forced marches are: 56 km in 24 hours; 96 km in 48 hours; or 128 km in 72 hours. A forced march usually exceeds this distance by increasing the hours marched rather than by increasing the rate of march. However, sometimes the rate of march must be increased to adjust to the situation.
a. Although forced marches may impair the fighting effectiveness of a unit, urgent conditions on the battlefield could require them. Rest periods should be scheduled to avoid marching at the hottest time of day and to ensure the arrival of the unit in combat-ready condition. At this time, commanders should consider increasing the rate of march when soldiers are most rested.
b. Time for a forced march of 52 km (4 km less than the maximum recommended distance) should be scheduled as follows, assuming the march began at first light:

Assuming a three day forced march plus four days of marching at “normal” march rates puts the ground covered at the end of a week at:

128Km Forced March in three day + 4-days at 32km/day = 128 + (4x32) = 256km/week = ~153.6miles/Week.

The rate of Movement of a German Infantry Division in game when moving through Soviet Controlled or Contested Hexes is anywhere from 50 to 80miles/week. The in-game rates of movement of Infantry Divisions don’t look bad, until the enemy control or contested hex movement rate modifiers kick-in. I understand the game designers logic behind the increased movement costs for contested hexes. I just wonder if the costs are perhaps overly harsh?

[marty_01]

Some March Rate snippets from the American Civil War:

River boats, transports, and railroad trains were comparative luxuries to the average Yankee or Rebel soldier. Most of the time, he reached his objective on foot. The speed of marching infantry was controlled by the nature of the ground it crossed. On hard-topped Pennsylvania highways, troops could make 30 miles per day. Traveling under his own power, the infantry soldier was expected to average 16 to 20 miles per day under normal conditions, and be ready for battle when he got to his destination.

In crucial periods, troops hit the roads day after day with no protracted rest. During the Shenandoah Valley Campaign in 1862, Stonewall Jackson's "foot cavalry" marched the length of the valley five times in three months. In November, 1863, Sherman's men made 400 miles on foot and went into action the day after reaching their goal. Completely at the mercy of weather, Southern roads were often in miserable condition. Spring rains made rivers overflow their banks, flooding the already muddy highways.