Nato symbols only are a no-go for WWII games

[neuromancer]

ORIGINAL: Chris10
I agree that the chips provide great deal of info but nice sprites with pop-up boxes would do that too,

The pop up has MORE detail in WitE, if you need it, you go to it.

besides: the info in WITE is displayed in the sidebar-box too, so this is a moot point

Not hardly. Clicking on every unit to get the sidebar information to find a unit with some MPs left to try to close that encirclement, or fill the gap in your line, or whatever can get pretty tedious after a while. And you can't get a sidebar for the enemy units, while the counter gives you useful estimated information, again at a glance (you will want the mouse over for the additional information like fort level - although some play with the fort numbers up which would be over the middle of li'l tanks and men).

I get a great deal of information quickly by simply glancing at my units, without having to click on them or mouse over them. And my turns still take over an hour to do. Which again would be a hindrance to a wider audience. Making it take longer because its harder to get information quickly would not increase its appeal.

I've seen and played strategic level games using sprites instead of counters, I haven't been impressed. Always felt that they were more worried about making the game pretty than making the game.

Besides it distinctly takes away from the immersion level, as an earlier post said, this is a staff/ planning map* and wouldn't have little miniatures on it.

* sort of, real staff planning maps don't have hexes, and are really funky to read until you are used to them.

To be more accurate, these games are meant to reproduce the feel of the old school cardboard and paper boardgames, with more depth that can realistically only come from a computer game. Creating a Panzer General feel (which I played, and was not impressed by) or an RTS feel is again not going to do much to win over the existing audience, and isn't going to do much to get someone who has no pressing desire to read a 382 page manual to buy the game.

Okay, okay, its only 356 pages long after taking out the cover, recommended reading, credits, legal information, and ads.

[PeeDeeAitch]

Still, Neuromance, admit it....a little animated Panzer V over-running a 45mm AT gun would be cool.

[neuromancer]

And yes this game does have a much steeper learning curve than HoI3.  I have the game, its not a hard game to learn or play.  Especially the vanilla version (helps that the AI blows).
 

And seriously !!! For 80$ or 90$ I expect something more than whats actually offered

 
Ah, like paying $5 on top of the price of the game for a handful of sprites like Paradox does?  No thanks, I'll take the solid game play and superior support of someone like Matrix over Paradox's crap coding and poor support any day.
 
 
 
Well Chris, I think you hold a distinctly minority opinion.  But of course you are free to let Matrix know your preference.
 
And they are free to ignore you.  Or not.  Who knows?
 
But considering that there are a lot of these 'traditional' WW2 style games out there (besides Matrix, look to HPS Simulations, they don't make anything but games like this), and very few Panzer General type games, I wouldn't hold my breath.
 

[neuromancer]

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch
Still, Neuromance, admit it....a little animated Panzer V over-running a 45mm AT gun would be cool.

[:D]
Dude, you are fun to have on a board. [8D]


Sure, little tanks and guys fighting does look cool, but that's an RTS, not a large scale strategy game like this. I do enjoy small unit RTS games where you focus on one area as your guys move along to accomplish a mission. They are fun and do look cool. But this is something else entirely.

Hamburgers and Sundaes. You eat them both, they both taste good, and both are probably bad for you. But they are fundamentally very different things.

I don't want chocolate on my hamburger, or BBQ sauce on my ice cream*. Maybe there are those that do, but I'm not convinced they are the majority.


* My brother did BBQ sauce on ice cream by accident once, said it was the most disgusting thing he ever ate.

[Chris10]

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

Still, Neuromance, admit it....a little animated Panzer V over-running a 45mm AT gun would be cool.

this [:D] well...sort of

ORIGINAL: neuromancer
And yes this game does have a much steeper learning curve than HoI3. I have the game, its not a hard game to learn or play. Especially the vanilla version (helps that the AI blows).

HoI III brings a lot of automation which is good for the more casual player..
HoI II is considerably harder...but anyway...steep learning curves can be an indication of design flaws too.

ORIGINAL: neuromancer
I'll take the solid game play and superior support of someone like Matrix over Paradox's crap coding and poor support any day.

thas simply untrue...on the long run Paradox always get their games running very nice and the massive Paradox Community is proove of that.
Besides...HoI II and III are various times as complicated as WITP or WITE as they feature hundreds of countrys who have to work actually ingame with their own AI managing production,diplomacy,trade,espionage and warfare independently which country the player chooses and they run real time. If you would know something about programming you would be aware of that fact and not judging about crappy coding while having no clue what you are talking about.

ORIGINAL: neuromancer
Sure, little tanks and guys fighting does look cool, but that's an RTS, not a large scale strategy game like this.

arrrghhh...you getting worse with each post...HoI II or III is grand strategy on a worldwide scale...so do EU II or III and they do use sprites and povide great immersion...so ?




Anyway...I made my point...there is no need for me adding further things neither getting carried away in pointless disussions. [:)].

[Aolain327]

I am quite pleased with WitE. In addition, I prefer NATO symbology....the little tanks, etc, all seem silly to me.

[Wild]

I have played HoI II for years. I'm playing Darkest hour WWI scenario now. I love HoI II, but in all honesty you can't compare it or panzer general to games like WitE or Witp. It would be like comparing checkers to chess. They are not even in the same ballpark in terms of complexity.

The grognards who play WitE prefer counters over sprites.

[Scook_99]

Could you imagine how long one turn would take if full of animations? I am not saying either way if it would enhance this game. For me, I like NATO symbols for this game, the rewards come from encirclements and forcing your opponent to fight where you want him. I did love Panzer General I and II, and am really looking forward to Panzer Corps when it comes out. I hope they have mission briefings read by people with accents for their countries.

PDH, yes Longest Day used German military nomenclature on their counters. I found it more descriptive than NATO symbols, and could tell a lot more details about a unit with a glance. Sadly, that was one thing the reviews panned heavily when the game was released, most people didn't want to learn new symbiology.

[kirkgregerson]

ORIGINAL: Chris10

I read about WITE about a year ago and was really looking forward for this game. I did not checked back on this title until now as I thought it to be a good idea to wait for some patches after release to flatten out the biggest issues (those who play Paradox Hearts of Iron and other grand strategy games know why...LOL)
Anyway, today I thought to have a look on this game and read thru the forum and watched some youtube videos to see if its the great title I was expecting and I have to say:
Its a real pity but there is no way Iam going to bother with a WWII game wich uses only NATO symbols. Those who played the original Panzer General will remember how immersive it was despite the fact that its mechanics where a lot more simple but players got seriously attached to their units as you could see grow their experinece (the gold stars) and the Player was not stearing on some metaforical NATO symbols who dont provide any atmosphere at all. With todays graphics it would have been megaeasy to make some nice individual sprites for each unit and unti type (main unit) and for each individual country and implement one more zoom level to be able to appreciate them and to give the impression of some closer control.
The devs should really re-install the first Panzer General and play a few turns to be remembered what direct Player-Control means (move-attack or attack-move) and to realize how much better and immersive it is to have unit sprites instead of those crappy Nato symbols (besides...there was no Nato in WWII as far as I remember so it feels totally off to have to play with them)...

Just a shame...a first post really should be something positive [&:]

LOL, Chris thanks for the good laugh. Yeah, I liked those games with their cute little icons of vehicles, men, and plane. Sure, but that was like when I was 12. When you decide to grow up and play a real man's WW2 game, then you'll be ready for WitE. If you need the little girly icons to keep your attention span, then you're probably not cut out for WitE.

WitE is a beautiful game which is much sexier with the NATO symbols that give it a serious feel as a war game. I can't take a strategic war game serious with those non-NATo symbols.

Don't take it personal, just my opinions.

[Mynok]

PG is the father of all hexfield wargames

You cannot be serious. Certainly not if you've played wargames for 30 years as you've claimed. PG is not even close to the father of hex based wargames. Not even freaking close.

I prefer the OKH symbols myself, but everyone knows the NATO symbols so it wasn't a bad choice for WITE. Little tanks running around? Not even close to appropriate for a division level game.

[>:]

[56ajax]

Thanks everyone; some really good laughs in this; perhaps this should be moved to its own sub folder under Comedy.

And how Mirandas rear end got in here i havent a clue but, Well done, Sir.

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: johntoml56

And how Mirandas rear end got in here i havent a clue but, Well done, Sir.

Well...she has a hexagon overlay, and if you substitute "Soviet Industry" for "sister's family" in her quoted dialogue you have how I feel in my game against PDH.

Okay...I'm reaching...[:D]

[Mynok]

With a hexagon hiney...one must certainly wonder where Moscow is......or not. [:D]

[kirkgregerson]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

PG is the father of all hexfield wargames

You cannot be serious. Certainly not if you've played wargames for 30 years as you've claimed. PG is not even close to the father of hex based wargames. Not even freaking close.

I prefer the OKH symbols myself, but everyone knows the NATO symbols so it wasn't a bad choice for WITE. Little tanks running around? Not even close to appropriate for a division level game.

[>:]

PG is more like the retarded step child of hex based war games then the father. [:'(]

Sorry, I need to work in my sensitivity training. ... the 'mentally challenged' step child...

[herwin]

Which symbol system do you want to use? NATO was originally the French system, which America learned in WWI. Everyone else had/has their own systems. (I learned them all at one point in my professional career.)

[Jajusha]

Everyones talking of nato symbols and stuff, i never really understud that. But i love the way the envelopes fight in this game.

[Chris10]

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson
Sure, but that was like when I was 12. When you decide to grow up and play a real man's WW2 game, then you'll be ready for WitE. If you need the little girly icons to keep your attention span, then you're probably not cut out for WitE.

Don't take it personal, just my opinions.

If you dont want people to take stuff personal I suggest you stop making adolescent remarks like "when you grow up". My daughter uses this when she has nothing better to say (shes 17).

ORIGINAL: Mynok
You cannot be serious. Certainly not if you've played wargames for 30 years as you've claimed.

There is no need for me to claim something. I state facts and I did not said anything about wargames. I said I played thousands of games in over 30 years. That obviously include wargames but not exclusivly

ORIGINAL: Mynok
PG is not even close to the father of hex based wargames. Not even freaking close.

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson
PG is more like the retarded step child of hex based war games then the father

I dont know in which dimension you two live but in the real world universe PG is still played today and people created over 2500 custom scenarios for it and they still do (17 years after its release !) So its impact on follwoing hex-wargames was considerably bigger than the impact of any other hex-based game before...its absolutely ok to consider it the father of a new generation of hexbased wargames while all other hexgames are long forgotten and burried so I assume you are out of your mind and not reliable for your statements or maybe to young to really consider PGs effect on the war-game scene...either way...I dont blame you.

The flash point of PC hex-wargames was without a doubt PG in 94
which combined a remarkably intuitive user interface with a game engine that had enough depth and "chrome" to attract even serious war gamers. Although several levels of abstraction away from a real model of warfare, it made players confront many of the choices actually faced by campaign commanders. It was so good at this, in fact, that Air Command and Staff College (ACSC) actually experimented with using a version of it (Pacific General) as a teaching tool in campaign-level planning.
Beyond this, the game was fun. It provoked a reaction within the gaming community akin to that of Jim Dunnigan's Panzer Blitz (Avalon Hill, 1970), whose popularity back in the early seventies helped create much of today's grognard community and John Hill's Squad Leader (Avalon Hill, 1977), which helped fuel the great board-war-game boom of the late seventies. The war-gaming hobby seems to need a fun, accessible hit every so often to attract new players or re-attract old ones and WITE could be one of these but without an appealing user interface only featuring dry symbols it hardly can live up to its promises which is just a pity.

You guys should really do your homework before cause you came here with empty hands and nothing more than polemic statements without substance

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson
... the 'mentally challenged' step child...

now that you said it...[:D]


for those interested I add a link with an interesting article. It talks of the minority who want realism wrecking the profitability of a game.
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2 ... 598,00.asp

[cookie monster]

Thanks for the essay.[8|]

I haven't yet seen anybody supporting your opinion of "Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games".

Maybe just maybe, you are infact of a different opinion and nobody can really see your point.

Do you honestly expect them to redesign the counter to Sprites? Or release them as a Downloadable Content?

Nobody has really asked for it before. Apart from you nobody I know on here has ever considered it a "NO-GO" either.

Wishlist's are quite funny to read, if they give apples somebody always says "The game is broken! and I want Oranges!"

[Tarhunnas]

Sure, Panzer General was fun, I played it a lot. That does not mean that all other wargames should look like it. Its graphics was right for a beer and pretzels game. WITE is a more serious and realistic game and NATO symbols are appropriate.

I don't really know why I bother to answer this, it is hard to tell if this thread is for real or trolling...

[Chris10]

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

Thanks for the essay.[8|]

I haven't yet seen anybody supporting your opinion of "Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games".

Maybe just maybe, you are infact of a different opinion and nobody can really see your point.

Do you honestly expect them to redesign the counter to Sprites? Or release them as a Downloadable Content?

Nobody has really asked for it before. Apart from you nobody I know on here has ever considered it a "NO-GO" either.

Wishlist's are quite funny to read, if they give apples somebody always says "The game is broken! and I want Oranges!"

lol...I did not mention that I want the game redesigned, did I ?
Neither I said something about broken. Has this something to do with the point of the topic ?..I dont think so
I said that with the current appearance of ONLY nato symbols it most probably will not appeal on a wider client range except grognards and that this is a reason for me to skip the game ( and I bet for hundreds or thousands of other players too. The thing is they dont sign up on the board just to state that fact ) ,thats all I said. People can like that statement or not and devs can take on the point or not. Its up to them and what they expect out of the hard work they invested...

However..the graphical appearance I described does not need deep changes in the game engine itself...just additional 2d artwork, another zoom level, some pop-up boxes for info and coloured frames around the unit icons to instantly show current strength (ranging from green,yellow, orange to red) so players have not to click units to look for unit stregnth when playing with sprites.
btw I did not said that the nato symbols must go but a combination or a either this or that solution would have been far more player friendly. Player friendly in a sense of not only hardcore players friendly.

You ever thought about the possibility that the fact that nobody complained about nato only symbols may have to do with the composition of the type of players on the board (grognards...) ?

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
I don't really know why I bother to answer this, it is hard to tell if this thread is for real or trolling...

you know...that statement is just a perfect example of how stubborn and narrow minded people can become when they drift away into fanboism...they become unable to have a mature discussion about a valuable point and on a certain point they start label other people as trolls when they make their stance. Sort of unmature behaviour dont you think? I repeat...I dont say nato symbols must be eliminated but I stand by my point that there really should be a combination of sprites with symbols depending on zoom level or an off/on option so make the game more appealing for no hardcore hex-wargames.