How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated?

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: bigred

ORIGINAL: herwin

I tried the recommended tactics, and had my head handed to me. How the hell do you take down the Japanese CVTF if he concentrates all twelve of his carriers in it? It habitually has 135 Zeros on CAP... I set things up so all but one of my CVTFs had reaction zero and followed a single lead CVTF, and they still ended up spread around the Coral Sea. 220 aircraft lost attacking the Japanese carrier group!

That tactic goes in the trash.

hi harry..one technique I have used early in the game is to place 5/7 dutch subs into a TF w/ an aggressive commander. This Tf should operate in an area I know will attract the KB. As time progresses I add PT boat intervention and sea mines to the issue(start the subs from port loaded w/ mines then drop the mines into the hex w/ the KB). The cumulative effect is to pick off or damage one or two high value targets.

I've been trying a version of that. Mining Saint Georges Channel is a good idea.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I recall someone taunting the KB with small invasions of Japanese held islands.  When he knew where the KB was, he'd put ashore a unit on the other end of the empire, then pull out and leave before the KB could get there.  I think he lost a few transports with this trick and some ground devices, but he had the super KB running back and forth across the empire trying to put out fires.

The Marshalls are a great target for this sort of trick.  Once you get Japanese land based air supressed, the islands are hard to defend.  If the Japanese player chooses not to try and stop your invasion, you have a toe hold in the middle of his empire.  It's a bit harder to pull off this trick in the Far East where Japanese LBA can be strong with support from multiple bases.

Bill

The Marshalls are an idea. I need an alternative way to suppress the Nettie attacks on PM.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: JeffK

What date is it??
How many CV do you have available??

Also B58 is right, if all of his CV are in the same place, push him in other theatres, make him react, maybe across some SS traps, cause him to use up fuel and maybe gather sys damage, wear him out.

July 14 1942. The force that got stonked had six CVs. I lost two early trying to knock out the KB in narrow seas off Borneo. That was before he learned to run a heavy SAG ahead.

I have been pushing elsewhere.

Not sure that you can at this point in the war unless, as IRL, the IJN has already lost some CV's. IRL, Yamamoto split his forces. Your opponent has not. Thus, you cannot think you can emulate the RL results unless you have a similar in game situation.

If he has kept the KB together, you need to wait for '43 before taking on the KB unless he comes to you and you can bring significant LBA forces to bear.

Actually, this is a question for the experienced naval officers out there--what do you do with a Red CVTF that has eight carriers and a light screen? I've been trying to hit it with SAGs. It worked until he learned to use a heavy SAG as cover. I've also tried operating in a ring around his force, but he simply moves up to challenge one of the TFs. I suspect reaction is my friend.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Without revealing any trade secrets, here are few things to try.

1. - dont fight it...pretty simple, but run your behind away at maximum speed...set ambushes with your CV's and only spring if the enemy is broken up.
2. - manage pilots so only 70+ skill pilots are aboard.
3. - if you expect to be outnumbered, change the game so that the odds improve in your favor. This inlcudes adding fighter ssquadrons, swapping out bomber for fighter squadrons, and even the extreme of putting only fighters on the carriers (and moving your bombers to a nearby land base.
4. - only fight in range of a good airbase with many fighters that can supplement CAP and provide incremental bomber support
5. - know how many fighters you need to withstand enemy onslaughts. 2 to 1 minimum needed to deflect most of an enemy attack. Three or 4 to one desirable.
6. - search heavily and at maximum distance when naval or carrier combat is a possibility. Dont engage if you are that outnumbered!
7. - use picket TF's of a DD / pg, AK, PT, etc or two out a dozen or more hexes. They will encounter the enemy first and provide critical warning
8. - put BB's in your CV TF's. they will take many of the hits
9. - be patient. Once you've established a decisive battle enemy strategy, you should utilize deception to draw away the enemy away from your intended target. Also use smaller jumps rather than long leap invasions.
10 - mass a dozen or more subs. In 42, mainly spotters, in 43, they will take their toll
Hope this helps.

I've been trying most of those. (3) looks worth thinking about.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

In early '42, I put on a 18 plane Marine fighter group to give me 45 fighters until the re-sizing happens in July (27 + 18 = 45). It may take a few months, but they will become "carrier trained." After July '42, you can break up these 18 plane groups to add a few extra fighters to your American CVs. Use your 110% overstacking capability to your advantage rather than stay at 90 planes or less.

If your careful, you can train up your American CVs early and try to hit the Japanese before they re-size in July from the 18 Zeros most have.

I can do this. The problem with the massive KB is that it can put 135-150 Zeros into the air without breathing hard.

[CV 2]

Best way is to lay a trap. Load a squadron of Marine fighters on each of your carriers and put the bulk of your fighters on CAP (70%). Mass S-boats in the area he will approach from, and as Bill already has said, use land based air. Let him come to you.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: CV 2

Best way is to lay a trap. Load a squadron of Marine fighters on each of your carriers and put the bulk of your fighters on CAP (70%). Mass S-boats in the area he will approach from, and as Bill already has said, use land based air. Let him come to you.

I can do this. I have the assets in-theater, and some of the USMC guys already have carrier experience. I'll use the Long Island for training them up. Life is good again.[:D]

[CV 2]

They dont need to be carrier trained (unless of course you have a house rule on it). Even if the ops losses are higher (which I dont see significant numbers to worry about it) you are looking to fight 1 battle with them, not a campaign.

And dont worry about the type of fighter either. Better is better of course but even Buffs work against Vals and Kates [;)]

[jeffk3510]

I took on the KB before my CVs were upgraded and my squads.  The result?  I re-started my game [:D]

I think the best advise, and it has been stated numerous times, is to lay some form of a trap, and keep the them running all over the Pacific until you have upgraded both your ships and planes.
 

[inqistor]

ORIGINAL: herwin
The problem with the massive KB is that it can put 135-150 Zeros into the air without breathing hard.

Well, in late 1943, you would consider yourself terribly unlucky, if you have ONLY 300 HELLCATs on CAP [:D]

Allies are actually all about land-based heavy bombers. You close airfields, and destroy planes there. CVs are only mostly support, until 1944.

[crsutton]

The point is I think pretty clear. In July of 42, if KB is intact then you pretty much don't have too many options. You need to be patient and find opportunties to whittle down the Japanese navy. I personally don't think the Allied carriers fleet is a match for the Japanese in 7/42 so my only clear goal at that stage of a game is to not fight them on equal terms. Which most of the time means not fight them at all. If he is conducting an operation with massed Japanese fleet in mid 42 then the odds are he will win. Your choice is to keep you fleet intact and keep him on his toes by hitting places where he is not. That way he will be limited to one major offensive at at time. Sounds counter productive but the odds are that you will get creamed in a major fight so why put yourself in that position.

Time is your friend and as time passes you strength grows and his offensive power can be ground down. As an Allied player, it has always been my firm rule never to risk my carriers in 1942 unless I am close to certain that I can't lose. Because if you lose then you are out of carriers till mid 1943 and you will suffer a whole lot more for it. My preference is to give up territory rather than lose divisions or carriers. I don't mean Sir Robin. I fight for every bit of ground, but not to the point where he can pull off a major coup.

Too many AFBs are looking for that "miracle at Midway" in 1942. A good JBF will exploit this every time.

[DivePac88]

Well I can see 2x main points here;

1# Is that to defeat The Main Japanese Carrier force, you have to create a tactical situation as the American did in RL, though mainly luck and some good management to your advantage.

2# Is that also to defeat the Main Japanese Carrier Force, they would have to operate as they did in RL, with Their Carrier Force dispersed.

[ChezDaJez]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

All you need for that is a couple of P38 squadrons. [;)]

In reply to Brad:

Ha ha... very funny! [:@]

To all others:

Don't ask. [:-]

Chez

[ChezDaJez]

One squadron of B-17s should be able to decimate his CAP... grumble, grumble, grumble!

Chez

[topeverest]

Interesting philosophy Inquisitor. I certainly agree about exerting allied dominance with LBA. I tend to subscribe to the situational theory of early allied invaions. What and where you do is contingent on what naval assets the enemy has in place and how he or she is using them. Amphibious deception and small hop invasions are critical elements in games where the enemy subscribes to the decisive battle theory.

[bradfordkay]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

One squadron of B-17s should be able to decimate his CAP... grumble, grumble, grumble!

Chez

They aren't decimating your CAP... they're just sending the scared little puppies home with their tails tucked between their legs! [;)]

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

Well I can see 2x main points here;

1# Is that to defeat The Main Japanese Carrier force, you have to create a tactical situation as the American did in RL, though mainly luck and some good management to your advantage.

2# Is that also to defeat the Main Japanese Carrier Force, they would have to operate as they did in RL, with Their Carrier Force dispersed.

What's the downside of operating eight carriers in a single TF? I don't think the coordination penalty matters much at that point. Is it vulnerable to SAGs? Resupply? That you can track it continuously from across the ocean?

[CV 2]

Well the downside is half your planes arent going to fly. Or is it a quarter?

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: inqistor

Well, in late 1943, you would consider yourself terribly unlucky, if you have ONLY 300 HELLCATs on CAP [:D]

Allies are actually all about land-based heavy bombers. You close airfields, and destroy planes there. CVs are only mostly support, until 1944.

I agree. There is not a lot that Japanese can do to a large, properly protected, Allied base from autumn of 1942 and later. At least without squandering disproportionate amounts of assets. Massed 4Es and base hopping are the keys for steady advance to victory.

That said, once all 6 USN 1942 carriers arrive and get flak upgrades, an all-out carrier clash on neutral terms is, IMO, already a good proposition for Allies. The battle (assuming RN carriers also are sailing with the Allied fleet) will be quite even and depending on how the dice will roll. But consequences of a defeat are much less severe for Allies at this stage, and bloody draw suits them just fine. The exception is a situation where Allies just have invaded beyond the range of their LBA and will likely lose the invasion force unless the fleet continues to support it. That's why such invasions need to be considered carefully in 1942.

[Bliztk]

Interesting discussion [:)]

As the evil Japanese viewpoint:

I have KB split in two forces.
Akagi, Hiryu, Soryu, Shokaku and Zuikaku with 2xKongos 3xCA, 2xCS 6xDDs
Kaga, Junyo, Hiyo, Zuiho, Ryuho and Shoho, 2xKongos 3xCAs 2xCs 6xDDs

Yamato, Nagato & Mutsu herald the KB,
then following the SAG KB Slow,
 Followed by Fuso Ise Hyuga,
 Followed by 4xDD ASW TF
Followed by KB Fast,
followed by ASWTF
followed by CA SAG
followed by ASWTF

Reaction 0 = Yamato, KBI KB II
Reaction 1= CA and Fuso SAG
Reaction 2 = ASW TFs

I have 10 Jakes searching at night.

The idea is to move first Yamato, clean the hex, then KB arrives. The ASW Tfs should react to any submarine and move ahead.

And unlike Yamamoto, I will not fight in neutral territory. We are fighting for PM, which is the last perimeter base I want to take, backed by a level 8 airfield at Rabaul with 72 A6M2 and 90 Netties.

Basically I duck out from Rabaul air umbrella for 1-2 days, conduct my operations, and then run away under air cover.