How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated?

[herwin]

I tried the recommended tactics, and had my head handed to me. How the hell do you take down the Japanese CVTF if he concentrates all twelve of his carriers in it? It habitually has 135 Zeros on CAP... I set things up so all but one of my CVTFs had reaction zero and followed a single lead CVTF, and they still ended up spread around the Coral Sea. 220 aircraft lost attacking the Japanese carrier group!

That tactic goes in the trash.

[inqistor]

Same as Japan, takes Allies in late-war.

Be patient. For sure you should NOT attack, if your CVs are still armed with 1.1 in AA guns. Penalties will eventually balance for both sides.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: inqistor

Same as Japan, takes Allies in late-war.

Be patient. For sure you should NOT attack, if your CVs are still armed with 1.1 in AA guns. Penalties will eventually balance for both sides.

Yeah, but I can't even defend. The massed KB (8 CVs, 4 CVLs, 4 CS, 4 fast BBs, a bunch of DDs in two CVTFs) appears to be invulnerable. He's taken to leading with a heavy SAG to prevent me from getting to it with my surface units. It's ponderous, but it goes wherever it wants. I wouldn't mind except that he can systematically reduce each base in turn. Quantity has a quality all of its own.

<grumble>[:D][:D][:D]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: inqistor

Same as Japan, takes Allies in late-war.

Be patient. For sure you should NOT attack, if your CVs are still armed with 1.1 in AA guns. Penalties will eventually balance for both sides.

Yeah, but I can't even defend. The massed KB (8 CVs, 4 CVLs, 4 CS, 4 fast BBs, a bunch of DDs in two CVTFs) appears to be invulnerable. He's taken to leading with a heavy SAG to prevent me from getting to it with my surface units. It's ponderous, but it goes wherever it wants. I wouldn't mind except that he can systematically reduce each base in turn. Quantity has a quality all of its own.

<grumble>[:D][:D][:D]

But it can only be in one place at a time. That's your opening.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: inqistor

Same as Japan, takes Allies in late-war.

Be patient. For sure you should NOT attack, if your CVs are still armed with 1.1 in AA guns. Penalties will eventually balance for both sides.

Yeah, but I can't even defend. The massed KB (8 CVs, 4 CVLs, 4 CS, 4 fast BBs, a bunch of DDs in two CVTFs) appears to be invulnerable. He's taken to leading with a heavy SAG to prevent me from getting to it with my surface units. It's ponderous, but it goes wherever it wants. I wouldn't mind except that he can systematically reduce each base in turn. Quantity has a quality all of its own.

<grumble>[:D][:D][:D]

But it can only be in one place at a time. That's your opening.

Exactly. Unfortunately, it likes to be where I want to be, and I need my carriers to suppress his Netties. I need to figure out how many carriers I need to suppress a Nettie offensive against one of my bases...

[bradfordkay]

All you need for that is a couple of P38 squadrons. [;)]

[wdolson]

Sometimes you might get lucky.&nbsp; Back in WitP, the AI massed most of the KB to attack Rabaul, which held out the early battles.&nbsp; I had a large amount of land based air there and happened to have the three Yorktowns in the area when the KB sortied from Truk to pound Rabaul.&nbsp; (This was a gainst the AI BTW.)

The Yorktowns parked south of Rabaul and on the first day of the battle happened to be socked in with rain.&nbsp; The land based air at Rabaul took heavy losses attacking the KB, but weakened the CAP in return.&nbsp; The next day I moved more aircraft to Rabaul.&nbsp; The US carriers had clear weather that day.&nbsp; A Rabaul base strike was first, which weakened the CAP further, then the US carriers struck and did significant damage to the KB.&nbsp;

Land based air in the Southwest Pacific took a while to rebuild, even with the crazy production rates in WitP, and the Hornet took a torpedo and was out for several months, but I think I sank three CVs outright and mauled the rest.&nbsp; The game pretty much turned in the Allies favor at that point.&nbsp; Interestingly, it was June 1942.&nbsp; Maybe the old AI was programmed to do a Midway type battle?

It was WitP, but the same luck factors could break your way in AE too.&nbsp; On the other hand, they could break the opposite way too.

Bill

[JeffroK]

What date is it??
How many CV do you have available??

Also B58 is right, if all of his CV are in the same place, push him in other theatres, make him react, maybe across some SS traps, cause him to use up fuel and maybe gather sys damage, wear him out.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

All you need for that is a couple of P38 squadrons. [;)]

It's a while...

Maybe I should deploy a couple of the squadrons back in the 4th USAF.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

What date is it??
How many CV do you have available??

Also B58 is right, if all of his CV are in the same place, push him in other theatres, make him react, maybe across some SS traps, cause him to use up fuel and maybe gather sys damage, wear him out.

July 14 1942. The force that got stonked had six CVs. I lost two early trying to knock out the KB in narrow seas off Borneo. That was before he learned to run a heavy SAG ahead.

I have been pushing elsewhere.

[herwin]

The answer seems to be you can't expect to take down a concentrated KB. Also, don't expect multiple CVTFs to stay together.

I've resigned and suggested we back off six weeks and pick up from there.

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: inqistor

Same as Japan, takes Allies in late-war.

Be patient. For sure you should NOT attack, if your CVs are still armed with 1.1 in AA guns. Penalties will eventually balance for both sides.

Yeah, but I can't even defend. The massed KB (8 CVs, 4 CVLs, 4 CS, 4 fast BBs, a bunch of DDs in two CVTFs) appears to be invulnerable. He's taken to leading with a heavy SAG to prevent me from getting to it with my surface units. It's ponderous, but it goes wherever it wants. I wouldn't mind except that he can systematically reduce each base in turn. Quantity has a quality all of its own.

<grumble>[:D][:D][:D]

He may be pounding your bases one at a time, but he's not sinking a single one of them. He's burning gobs and gobs of fuel, so try to keep him moving, either by carrot or stick. You don't defeat the massed KB by CV air until you have fully upgraded all of your CVW's with next generation planes, Hellcats, etc. Until then, you try to pick away at the massed KB with LBA if he strays close enough, and with SS's. As frustrating as it is to watch dud after dud dent the side of enemy ships, it's just as scary for your opponent to see it, if the ships in question are his precious CV's. Remember, you will get many more, he will not. [;)]

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: herwin

The answer seems to be you can't expect to take down a concentrated KB. Also, don't expect multiple CVTFs to stay together.

I've resigned and suggested we back off six weeks and pick up from there.

You can expect to take down the massed KB the same way you chop down a big tree......not with one big axe swing, but with many swings chipping away at it. LBA and subs are the answer. Use your CV's somewhere that the KB ain't.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: USS America

ORIGINAL: herwin

The answer seems to be you can't expect to take down a concentrated KB. Also, don't expect multiple CVTFs to stay together.

I've resigned and suggested we back off six weeks and pick up from there.

You can expect to take down the massed KB the same way you chop down a big tree......not with one big axe swing, but with many swings chipping away at it. LBA and subs are the answer. Use your CV's somewhere that the KB ain't.

I agree. Now if I can get a SAG past his extremely light screen,...

[AirGriff]

You can take down Jap carriers en masse, but you have to be very observant, calculating, and of course, lucky.&nbsp; I've been able to pull off 2 "Midways" in PBEM's, and they were both in '42, one in March--granted, those were in WitP.&nbsp; If you go looking for a head to head fight with KB on "even" terms before you get staffed with Hellcats, well...

[bigred]

ORIGINAL: herwin

I tried the recommended tactics, and had my head handed to me. How the hell do you take down the Japanese CVTF if he concentrates all twelve of his carriers in it? It habitually has 135 Zeros on CAP... I set things up so all but one of my CVTFs had reaction zero and followed a single lead CVTF, and they still ended up spread around the Coral Sea. 220 aircraft lost attacking the Japanese carrier group!

That tactic goes in the trash.

hi harry..one technique I have used early in the game is to place 5/7 dutch subs into a TF w/ an aggressive commander. This Tf should operate in an area I know will attract the KB. As time progresses I add PT boat intervention and sea mines to the issue(start the subs from port loaded w/ mines then drop the mines into the hex w/ the KB). The cumulative effect is to pick off or damage one or two high value targets.

[wdolson]

I recall someone taunting the KB with small invasions of Japanese held islands.&nbsp; When he knew where the KB was, he'd put ashore a unit on the other end of the empire, then pull out and leave before the KB could get there.&nbsp; I think he lost a few transports with this trick and some ground devices, but he had the super KB running back and forth across the empire trying to put out fires.

The Marshalls are a great target for this sort of trick.&nbsp; Once you get Japanese land based air supressed, the islands are hard to defend.&nbsp; If the Japanese player chooses not to try and stop your invasion, you have a toe hold in the middle of his empire.&nbsp; It's a bit harder to pull off this trick in the Far East where Japanese LBA can be strong with support from multiple bases.

Bill

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: JeffK

What date is it??
How many CV do you have available??

Also B58 is right, if all of his CV are in the same place, push him in other theatres, make him react, maybe across some SS traps, cause him to use up fuel and maybe gather sys damage, wear him out.

July 14 1942. The force that got stonked had six CVs. I lost two early trying to knock out the KB in narrow seas off Borneo. That was before he learned to run a heavy SAG ahead.

I have been pushing elsewhere.

Not sure that you can at this point in the war unless, as IRL, the IJN has already lost some CV's. IRL, Yamamoto split his forces. Your opponent has not. Thus, you cannot think you can emulate the RL results unless you have a similar in game situation.

If he has kept the KB together, you need to wait for '43 before taking on the KB unless he comes to you and you can bring significant LBA forces to bear.

[topeverest]

Without revealing any trade secrets, here are few things to try.

1. - dont fight it...pretty simple, but run your behind away at maximum speed...set ambushes with your CV's and only spring if the enemy is broken up.
2. - manage pilots so only 70+ skill pilots are aboard.
3. - if you expect to be outnumbered, change the game so that the odds improve in your favor. This inlcudes adding fighter ssquadrons, swapping out bomber for fighter squadrons, and even the extreme of putting only fighters on the carriers (and moving your bombers to a nearby land base.
4. - only fight in range of a good airbase with many fighters that can supplement CAP and provide incremental bomber support
5. - know how many fighters you need to withstand enemy onslaughts. 2 to 1 minimum needed to deflect most of an enemy attack. Three or 4 to one desirable.
6. - search heavily and at maximum distance when naval or carrier combat is a possibility. Dont engage if you are that outnumbered!
7. - use picket TF's of a DD / pg, AK, PT, etc or two out a dozen or more hexes. They will encounter the enemy first and provide critical warning
8. - put BB's in your CV TF's. they will take many of the hits
9. - be patient. Once you've established a decisive battle enemy strategy, you should utilize deception to draw away the enemy away from your intended target. Also use smaller jumps rather than long leap invasions.
10 - mass a dozen or more subs. In 42, mainly spotters, in 43, they will take their toll
Hope this helps.

[ny59giants]

In early '42, I put on a 18 plane Marine fighter group to give me 45 fighters until the re-sizing happens in July (27 + 18 = 45). It may take a few months, but they will become "carrier trained." After July '42, you can break up these 18 plane groups to add a few extra fighters to your American CVs. Use your 110% overstacking capability to your advantage rather than stay at 90 planes or less.

If your careful, you can train up your American CVs early and try to hit the Japanese before they re-size in July from the 18 Zeros most have.