High (strange) damage, fighter losses in night combat

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racndoc
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RE: High (strange) damage, fighter losses in night combat

Post by racndoc »

I feel compelled to post in this thread to rebut the numerous inaccurate and disingenuous comments and assertions....some borderline hysterical.....regarding strategic bombing in AE. I completed an AE AAR that ended in Allied autovictory in 12/44. I conducted a strategic bombing campaign over Japan from 7/44-12/44.The strategic bombing campaign is well chronicled on a day to day basis in the AAR 'IN HARM"S WAY" on page 6 of the AARs.

I had every every in game B-24 squadron based at a level 8 AF at Naha, a level 7 AF at Tanegahsima and level 6 AFs at Nago, Yakashima and Amami Oshima. All of the B-29 squadrons in gane were based in the Marianas. I had medium bombers and Corsair squadrons based at a level 5 AF at Miyake-jima. And I had every in game Allied CV/CVL/CVE sailing up and down the coast of a Japan that was prostrate and almost incapable of providing aerial resistance. I was able to amass 35,000 strategic bombing points over a 6 month period. There is _definitely_ a law of diminishing returns when strategic bombing Japan. The first 10,000-15,000 points are pretty easy to accumulate. Then it gets progressively more difficult to project damage until you reach a point where additional damage to Japanese cities is _very_ incremental. There is no way you could take out all of Japan's factories in 1 month....or even 6-12 months even if flying virtually unopposed.

I almost laugh when I see reports of 50,000 or 60,000 fire levels.....thats maybe the size of a little campfire in the woods and you could maybe roast some marshmellows over it. You arent talking a decent fire until you get over 500,000 and I routinely created fires over 1 million. I found that bombing damage was related to fire intensity x duration with duration being the most important variable..... ie.....a 500,000 fire over a 6 day duration would cause much more damage than a 1,500,000 fire over a 2 day duration.

When you look at bombing reports...the fires reported represent the current fire level with FoW...you dont add up all the fire levels from each bombing wave during the attack....it represents the fluctuating fire level over the course of the turn. The fire level is ALWAYS less on the start of the 2nd day of the turn as it represents fire fighting activities overnight. You cant take 10 reports of 50,000 level fires and call that a 500,000 fire.

And the operational tempo is based on how far the bombers fly during their turn. If you have B-29s based in the Marianas you are lucky if they can sortie 8-10 times per month. If you are basing your strategic bombers in the Japanese HI and they are only flying 5-6 hexes/turn then I see no reason why they cant fly every day unless they suffer damage from AA or A2A. My medium bombers and Corsairs based on Miyake-jima flew every day with no issue against Tokyo. All of the B-24s and B-29s had to be frequently rested. I was able to fly my B-24s from Okinawa, Amami Oshima, Yakashima and Tanegashima against targets in southern and central Japan up to 6 days in a row if I was able to accept extreme fatigue.

Here is my summary on what I found after 6 months of strategic bombing:


THE AIR WAR....REFLECTIONS ON STRATEGIC BOMBING OF JAPAN



I finished one game of stock WitP in 2006 that ended on 1/1/45. In that game....the Allies had accrued 10,000 strategic bombing points total.....all from B-29s based in the Marianas attacking from July 1944 to 1/1/45.

In this AE game.....the Allies amassed over 30,000 strategic points total......mostly from B-24s flying from Okinawa and islands off the southern coast of Japan in an assault that also was staged from July 1944 to 12/44.

I know that the scoring for strategic bombing losses is different for the 2 games.....but still the order of magnitude of destruction in this current AE game was far greater than in my previous WitP game.

I think that trying to strategic bomb Japan only with B-29s from island bases in the Marianas is insufficient to create the damage needed to put the Allies over the top. The main problem is the extreme range from the Marianas to Japan.......the way that AE models fatigue and op losses for long range missions simply prevents the B-29s(at least the 2 earliest models of the B-29) from a robust enough operational tempo to inflict significant strategic bombing damage. The B-29s are lucky if they can sortie more than 8-10 times/mo and the replacements dont keep up with ops losses..... even in the face of negligible flak and fighter defenses. I saw this range-based operational loss effect early on in the game with my transport AC.......just trying to fly supplies unopposed into rear area bases in Burma from India resulted in the C-47 Skytrains leading all Allied plane types in losses for the 1st 2 years of the war.....all to ops.


I think that it is better for the Allies to recapture Luzon as quickly as possible. Strategic bombing missions can be initially launched against southern Japan from a level 9 airfield at Aparri. Okinawa needs to be captured......you can construct a level 8 airfield at Naha and a level 6 airfield at Nago. Naha also provides you with an excellent front line naval base for refueling, rearming and repairs. Amami Oshima gives you a level 6 airfield and Tanegashima gives you a level 7 airfield and then you can get all your B-24s and long range fighters into the mix.

The first 10,000-15,000 strategic bombing points are relatively easy to amass....after that it becomes significantly more difficult to score more strategic loss points....especially at a favorable victory point ratio. Switching targets from southern Japan to the large industrialized cities of central Japan...Kobe/Osaka/Nagoya/Yokohama/Tokyo.....endurance and extreme range again became a factor as the B-24 crews' fatigue ramped up considerably and I ran out of long range P-38Ls and nearly ran out of the P-47D25s.

I got to a point where I couldnt make a dent in the 3:1 point ratio needed for auto victory.

The turning point was capturing the island of Miyake-jima off thre coast of central Japan and building a level 5 airfield there. This enabled the Allies to not only base Corsairs and medium bombers to help reduce the cities of central Japan.....but it also enabled the Allies to make use of the USMC fighter pilot pools which were very extensive. The Japanese Home Island fighter force was quickly overwhelmed and the medium bombers were able to fly virtually every day(as weather allowed) without fatgue as the range was so short.

As far as targeting......MP attacks work best against nearly virgin cities with large MP......this is the most cost effective way to damage HI/LI. As city damage and MP damage increase it becomes significantly more difficult to create the fires needed to damage the HI/LI. Precision bombing of HI.....and especialy LI.....has diminished returns and is very time consuming.

As far as precision bombing, it is most effective(in descending order) for resources/shipyards/refineries/armaments/AC factories.

As far as using carrier bombers, they are most effective(in descending order) for resources/shipyards and then(to a lesser extent) refineries/armaments/AC factories.

Weather seems to be the biggest determinate of damage inflicted and it is usualyy bad over most of Japan. Using 'Commanders Choice" scored some points for me(and gave me a bit of insght into targeting for precision bombing) but overall I was disappointed as the "Commander" repeatedly bombed cities with poor weather and targeted MP in small agrarian cities.


Ive attached a screenshot of Japan with islands noted with the greatest potential for airfields. off the south coast of Japan, the Allies can acquire a level 8 AF at Tsushima and level 7 AFs at Nakadori-jima, Fukue-jima and Koshiki-jima. Off the central coast of Japan, the Allies can acquire level 5 AFs at Izu Oshima and Miyake-jima and a level 4 AF at Hachiro-jima.


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racndoc
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RE: High (strange) damage, fighter losses in night combat

Post by racndoc »

Also....in regards to night bombing with B-29s.....here is what I experienced:


STRATEGIC BOMBING OF JAPAN


B-24s based at Tanegashima and Amami Oshima hammer Tokyo airifelds and close it with 100% damage.

At Tinian, General Curtis LeMay is disappointed with the high altitude attacks on Japan. The USAAF brass cannot figure out why bombing accuracy is so poor for the penultimate designed high altitude heavy bomber of the war......extremely high winds of over 150 miles per hour are throwing off the accuracy of the Norden bombsight and no one yet knows of the physics of the "jet stream". With his own neck on the line.....and the future of Hap Arnold's most visible strategic bomber program on the line......General Curtis LeMay makes the the most important command decision of his life. General LeMay orders the B-29 bomber groups to jettison their remotely controlled sighting equipment and all defensive anti aircraft guns save for the tail position. The powerful Wright R-3350 engines struggle to put the B-29 into high altitude approaches so LeMay orders the bombers to night attack at 6000 feet:


Night Air attack on Yokohama/Yokosuka , at 113,61

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 108


Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 12 damaged



Manpower hits 388
Fires 133110


Night Air attack on Yokohama/Yokosuka , at 113,61

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 99


Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 11 damaged



Manpower hits 265
Fires 159094


Night Air attack on Yokohama/Yokosuka , at 113,61

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 7


Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 1 damaged



Manpower hits 30
Fires 174044


The B-29s increase Japan's strategic damage losses to 7630.....less than 400 points over 2 days. In addition, the B-29s suffer 5% losses each day for a total of 11 B-29s lost to ops over 2 days....thats 11% of the AC involved.....thats with no defensive fighters and minimal AA.


With over 4 months of training 150 B-29s and then staging them from Aden and and east coast USA to Tinian and _ALSO_ 6 daytime attacks on heavily defended Osaka.....we see a total of 13 B-29s are lost. And then here 99 B-29s conduct 2 night attacks with no CAP and minimal flak and they suffer 11% casualties to ops. I can only imagine staging 400 plane raids with the B-29s at night and losing 40 AC over 2 days with little to no opposition. The Allies get only 18 B-29-1s per month so the losses I suffered unopposed are unsustainable.

The way it appears that WitP AE is designed is that night ops for B-29s creates horrific losses to ops.....nothing you can do about it and their is no relationship to AA or night fighters. This is similar to what I have experienced with the hapless transport AC in my rear areas that for over 2/3rds of the war suffered the heaviest losses of all my AC .....all to ops....only for the crime of flying close to their max range. Here....with the B-29s flying vast distances compared to all other Allied AC....their OP losses are huge and completely unsustainable. So the RL tactic of night bombing at 6000' doesnt work in AE....I suffer almost as many losses in 2 nights(11) as I did over 4 months(13) with training, staging and 6 then days of bombing with over 150 B-29s against CAP and AA.

I think that the B-29 model here is broken but I will continue to test it.

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Shark7
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RE: High (strange) damage, fighter losses in night combat

Post by Shark7 »

I think the thing that is being missed again is not that a bunch of bombers could do it. The problem is that the same crews can fly night after night. If the crews flew missions in the real war at the rate they do in game, they'd all rotate back home in less than a month.

This is true of both sides though, air groups can simply fly far more missions than was historically accurate.
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RE: High (strange) damage, fighter losses in night combat

Post by HansBolter »

ORIGINAL: Shark7

I think the thing that is being missed again is not that a bunch of bombers could do it. The problem is that the same crews can fly night after night. If the crews flew missions in the real war at the rate they do in game, they'd all rotate back home in less than a month.

This is true of both sides though, air groups can simply fly far more missions than was historically accurate.


Couldn't agree more. Fatigue is not very well modeled in game. Methinks to placate those who would whine over having to rest units in game.

What ever happened to the days of fatigue modeling in Uncommon Valor? A mere air transfer over long distance from the coast of Asustralia to Port Morseby would result in such high fatigue that 2-3 days of rest before going into action was mandatory. Now we can stage half way across the world and fly combat missions the same day with little fatigue.
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Miller
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RE: High (strange) damage, fighter losses in night combat

Post by Miller »

I agree with Hans with regard the fatigue levels in the game. The air model in UV was quite primitive, but it did model fatigue very well. Sure you could still fly airgroups every day, but their morale and performance dropped off drastically and they incurred heavy ops losses due to the fatigue. Ops losses are almost non-existent in AE compared to real life. Training units should see something like a 10% attrition rate per month for the least exp pilots, however I find I only have to replace the odd plane and pilot during my fortnightly check of them.

HOWEVER, there come a point in any game whereby the IJN player just has to pull down his shorts and take it up the arse like a man. GJ has taken it for a good 2.5 years. Now its your turn rader. You cannot seriously expect to keep moving the goalposts when something goes against you.

Just my 2p worth...........
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RE: High (strange) damage, fighter losses in night combat

Post by EUBanana »

ORIGINAL: Miller
Ops losses are almost non-existent in AE compared to real life.

I dunno. If you use heavy bombers or transports at long range ops losses are routinely higher than replacement rates, for the Allies.

Try using B29s at Saipan/Tinian as was used historically to bomb Japan and see what happens.
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rader
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RE: High (strange) damage, fighter losses in night combat

Post by rader »

ORIGINAL: Miller

HOWEVER, there come a point in any game whereby the IJN player just has to pull down his shorts and take it up the arse like a man. GJ has taken it for a good 2.5 years. Now its your turn rader. You cannot seriously expect to keep moving the goalposts when something goes against you.

I'm not trying to move the goalposts mate, I'm trying to keep them where we set them at the start of the game.

I certainly would never start a game as Japan with unrestricted strategic bombing (which IMO is totally borked, especially at night), so I think it's a little unreasonable for you to expect me to change them now.

It's still 1944, and GJ has a year and a half to go at a ridiculously ahistorical WITP pace. I hardly think the HRs will cause him to lose the game. So please piss off (and I mean that in the nicest possible way). [:)]
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Dan Nichols
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RE: High (strange) damage, fighter losses in night combat

Post by Dan Nichols »

From GreyJoys first post, listing house rules:

- Non-historical turn but Japanese cannot invade deep in allied territory 1st turn (e.g., no Mersing Gambit)

-Just one Port attack on turn one
-Reliable torps off, allied damage control on
- No sweep/CAP above 20,000 ft (no stratosweeps)
-Para units must be whole before paradroppping (not fragments all over)
-Must pay PPs to cross borders that start *friendly* (e.g., Manchuria -> China, or India -> Burma). Note that you can cross borders that start out enemy (e.g., Kwangtung units can move into Russia).
-1 week russian activation if Japan decides to invade.
-Thai units can move into the Burma panhandle and Indochina.
-4Es on naval attack restricted to 15k and only one group per base.
-No city *or night* bombing under 20,000 ft (it's too powerful). Other than this, all city bombing (China, DEI is fine).
-landing or paradropping on non base/dot hex is forbidden.
No Allied Air or naval units in Russia are allowed, even if Russia is activated.
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rader
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RE: High (strange) damage, fighter losses in night combat

Post by rader »

That's not the full list...
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Dan Nichols
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RE: High (strange) damage, fighter losses in night combat

Post by Dan Nichols »

That is the list he posted, do you have the complete list?
I think that the two obligations you have are to be good at what you do and then to pass on your knowledge to a younger person
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rader
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RE: High (strange) damage, fighter losses in night combat

Post by rader »

-Non-historical turn but Japanese cannot invade deep in allied territory 1st turn (e.g., no Mersing Gambit)
-Allies may not form new TF on 1st turn (may move the already formed TFs).
-Max one port attack turn 1
-Reliable torps off, allied damage control on
-Fighters can be set up to an altitude where they get their second best manuever rating
-Para units must be whole before paradroppping (no dropping fragments)
-Must pay PPs to cross borders that start *friendly* (e.g., Manchuria -> China, or India -> Burma). Note that you can cross borders that start out enemy (e.g., Kwangtung units can move into Russia). You can retreat/reform a line across a friendly border to fight the same enemy (e.g., Japanese units in China can retreat into Indochina as long as they continue to fight Chinese, or Burma units can retreat into India as long as they continue to fight Japanese on the Burma border).
-If activating Russia, Japan must give Russia 1 week to redeploy units.
-Russian and other allied units cannot be co-located or occupy each other's bases.
-Thai units can move into the Burma panhandle and Indochina (but not beyond).
-No city bombing under 20,000 ft. Other than this, all city bombing (China, DEI is fine).
-Night bombing: you can fly bombers up to 50% of moonlight (e.g., 60% mooonlight = 30 bombers).
-4Es on naval attack restricted to 15k and only one group per base
-Landing or paradropping on non base/dot hex is forbidden
-No gamey use of many single ships to confuse naval combat routines (but picket ships are fine).
-Naval CAP trap ("bait&CAP") outside your own base must use as bait a TF composed at least CV/CVL/CVEs with 180 a/c <-This was added later
-Normal withdrawls ("on")
-PDU on
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GreyJoy
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RE: High (strange) damage, fighter losses in night combat

Post by GreyJoy »

This is the tech support forum guys. Let's not talk about our HRs here.
The point we need to discuss here is:
Is night bombing correctly tuned as it stands now?
Please leave out of the discussion our game. I beg you.
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RE: High (strange) damage, fighter losses in night combat

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: rader

-Non-historical turn but Japanese cannot invade deep in allied territory 1st turn (e.g., no Mersing Gambit)
-Allies may not form new TF on 1st turn (may move the already formed TFs).
-Max one port attack turn 1
-Reliable torps off, allied damage control on
-Fighters can be set up to an altitude where they get their second best manuever rating
-Para units must be whole before paradroppping (no dropping fragments)
-Must pay PPs to cross borders that start *friendly* (e.g., Manchuria -> China, or India -> Burma). Note that you can cross borders that start out enemy (e.g., Kwangtung units can move into Russia). You can retreat/reform a line across a friendly border to fight the same enemy (e.g., Japanese units in China can retreat into Indochina as long as they continue to fight Chinese, or Burma units can retreat into India as long as they continue to fight Japanese on the Burma border).
-If activating Russia, Japan must give Russia 1 week to redeploy units.
-Russian and other allied units cannot be co-located or occupy each other's bases.
-Thai units can move into the Burma panhandle and Indochina (but not beyond).
-No city bombing under 20,000 ft. Other than this, all city bombing (China, DEI is fine).
-Night bombing: you can fly bombers up to 50% of moonlight (e.g., 60% mooonlight = 30 bombers).
-4Es on naval attack restricted to 15k and only one group per base
-Landing or paradropping on non base/dot hex is forbidden
-No gamey use of many single ships to confuse naval combat routines (but picket ships are fine).
-Naval CAP trap ("bait&CAP") outside your own base must use as bait a TF composed at least CV/CVL/CVEs with 180 a/c <-This was added later
-Normal withdrawls ("on")
-PDU on

Is that the only one that was added later?

GJ is right, this discussion should be elsewhere.
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rader
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RE: High (strange) damage, fighter losses in night combat

Post by rader »

It's the only one that was added since 1942 at least. There was some discussion early on in the game.

Agreed, sorry for taking up tech support time/space [:)]

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RE: High (strange) damage, fighter losses in night combat

Post by cwDeici »

I think the problem here which might be addressed in any future games is that the changes made were functional rather than substantive.

It's far less controversial in most historical games to add units and control of various territories rather than to change the mechanics, as the former addresses balance whereas the latter addresses contentious subjects of realism.

For example Japan could start with more carriers while the Allies get more land forces. Of course this would more openly admit that one is actually seeking an alt-historic simulation.

PS. Also, rather than crippling the comparative fighting ability of submarines against the IJN by (and I might be very wrong by assuming strengthened Japanese ASW) by strengthening the efficiency of Japanese ASW it might have be better to just give them more ASW assets.
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bigred
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RE: High (strange) damage, fighter losses in night combat

Post by bigred »

I noticed w/ most recent beta update that my night bombers are more often missing the target(announced on screen during the replay).

edit: This could be a situation that the 60% of planes that never participated in the target run before the update are now "offically announced" in the replay as being Off target.
I noted that a second night run of the same 100+ planes did not coordinate and arrive together. This did strike me as unusual. Before the update usually the planes arrived on target in coordination many nights at a time.
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