Tora^3 dennishe(J) vs Khyberbill (A) DBB-C with stacking limits

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: dennishe

By the way: "Can the Allied player see which and how many planes and engines I'm building somehow?"

Yes. discussed in a thread recently.

The gist of the discussion is that the allies did have pretty good intel as to what was being built where. Maybe not quite as good as the game gives them, but the differnce is minor in terms of what it means in game.

So plan accordingly.

[dennishe]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
So plan accordingly.

This is not so easy.

The war continues. The Allies are retreating fast in Luzon and in Malaya.
In a previous game Cannonfodder tought me to take Palembang fast. The first Japanese troops have landed at Brunei and Mirri, where a squadron of Zero's also arrived. From here on the IJN will move to Palembang. Singkawang will be taken first and will be used as a bridgehead. The troops for these operations are already embarked and underway.

The exodus of Manilla has started. Kate torpedobombers managed to pick up some juicy targets...

[dennishe]

I'm wondering whether it is worth it to actually continue building the Ki-46-II Dinah. The plane costs twice as much as the good old Ki-15-II. The stats of the Dinah are better than the Babs, but for a recon plane I'm not sure whether the HI costs are worth it...

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: dennishe

I'm wondering whether it is worth it to actually continue building the Ki-46-II Dinah. The plane costs twice as much as the good old Ki-15-II. The stats of the Dinah are better than the Babs, but for a recon plane I'm not sure whether the HI costs are worth it...

The Babs get eaten alive with any opposition and even without they fall prey to ops losses at max range more often than the Dinah. Speed and durability are the best things a recon plane can have (aside from a camera which conveniently is missing from ALL Japanese recons until late), and the Dinah trumps the Babs on both.

The Dinah III is definitely worth it as the range is awesome.

[KenchiSulla]

Its not that much HI, you do not need to overbuild them. It is a better plane so would go for the Dinah...

[dennishe]

Thanks guys. In that case I will continue building the Dinah...

Some of the navy variant of the Babs are currently being built though to reinforce the squadrons before the Judy scouts arrive.

[dennishe]

[center]IMPERIAL JAPANESE ARMY MARCHING ORDERS[/center]

14th Army - LGEN Honma
The fourteenth army is assigned to the Philippines. Currently the first units are landing at Aparri and Legaspi. The first objective is to take Manilla and thereby deny the USAFFE from the light industry and supply points. The Allies already seem to be pulling back to Bataan and Clark Field. Taking Manilla should be relatively easy. Once the USAFFE is cornered two or three regiments will be pulled out of Luzon and will move to Mindanao and the smaller Philippine islands. A IJN unit will land at Zamboanga shortly to deny the USAFFE at Mindanao from further supplies. These regiments will move back to Luzon to deliver the USAFFE the final blow. Once the Philippines are taken the 14th Army will digg in. The Philippines will become a key strategic region in the defense of Japan. While the engineers will build major fortifications, the infantry and armored units will serve as a strategic reserve and will close holes in the Japanese lines. Otherwise these units will only see action again when MacArthur returns to the Philipines.

15th Army - LGEN Iida
The fifteenth army will march trough Thailand and capture Burma. It will be the first line of defense to keep the British regiments out of the SRA. In a previous game Khyberbill has moved large amounts of troops into Burma. It is not unlikely that he would try something like this again. The 15th Army will quickly try to take Rangoon. The 33rd division is already embarked and heading for Bankok. The first divisions the will be released from Manchukwo by paying PPs will also move to Burma, as well as two divisions that currently are located at Shanghai and Osaka, when these become available after the fall of Singapore.

16th Army - LGEN Imamura
The sixteenth army will take Java and the eastern approach to the SRA. At the moment little transports are availabe for its operations, but as soon as most of the units of the 14th Army have landed, the 16th Army will move to Ambon and Kendari. From there Java will be attacked. The 16th Army will guard the southeastern part of the SRA and predominantly try to prevent an Allied assault from the Darwin area. To enforce this the Northwestern part of Australia may be captured. We'll see.

25th Army - LGEN Yamashita
The twentyfifth army will land at Malaya and capture Singapore. Kota Bharu and Alor Star have been taken. The Malayan army is pulling back and is currently being chased by two armored regiments. All other units are on strategic move (bicycles???) and are following the tanks. The Imperial Guards division will arrive shortly from Thailand. The capture of Singapore is the most important target of the IJA in the first months of the war. Therefore Yamashita will have access to all IJA southern army reserves. Once Singapore falls, the 25th army will protect the left flank of the 15th army in burma. Also it will protect Sumatra, Malaya and the Thai/Burmese coast from Allied invasions. An invasion of Ceylon is also within the possibilities.

After these initial operations further assaults on OZ or India may be conducted. Japan lacks significant cargo space in DBB-C and therefore operations must be planned carefully and not all locations on the map can be attacked at the same time. Over stretching is very dangerous. If the Japanese lines suddenly collapse large amounts of troops may become trapped behind enemy lines and there will be no way to quickly pull out units. Hence I'm a little modest with planning my attacks

[dennishe]

While I'm waiting for a turn, I studied the IJA bombers. Comparing them to the medium bombers that the Allies get, It blows my mind how poor the bomb loads of the Japanese bombers are. Below you find a list of most of the bombers that the Japanese get at the early stage of the war. To illustrate how poor the bomb loads are, I also added a couple of fighters. The Ki-43-IIa and the Ki-45 KAIa can carry a substantially larger bomb load than all Japanese light bombers together. I do not see a point in building these. Except a few perhaps for ASW duties. The light bombers will be upgraded via the Ki-45 to the Ki-43 as mentioned by Captain Cruft in his AAR. Also the Ki-48 does have an aweful bomb load. I will build only little of these and upgrade them to the Ki-21. This will be my main IJA bomber, until the second generation Ki-49s become available...


Ki-27b 2 x 50 kg
max speed: 292; normal range: 3(6); maneuver: 41; durability: 24; severice rating: 1.

Ki-43-Ic 2 x 15 kg
max speed: 305; normal range: 5(10); maneuver: 46; durability: 23; service rating: 1.

Ki-43-IIa 2 x 250 kg
max speed: 320; normal range: 6(11); maneuver: 39; durability: 23; service rating: 1.

Ki-44-IIa 2 x 100 kg
max speed: 376; normal range: 5(6); maneuver: 26; durability: 28; service rating: 1.

Ki-45 KAIa 2 x 250 kg
max speed: 340; normal range: 7(8); maneuver: 21; durability: 36; service rating: 2.

Ki-21-IIa 4 x 250 kg
max speed: 302; normal range: 10; maneuver: 20; durability: 40; service rating: 2.

Ki-30 1 x 250 kg
max speed: 263; normal range: 6; maneuver: 23; durability: 24; service rating: 1.

Ki-32 1 x 250 kg
max speed: 263; normal range: 5; maneuver: 19; durability: 24; service rating: 2.

Ki-36 4 x 30 kg
max speed: 216; normal range: 5; maneuver: 33; durability: 20; service rating: 1.

Ki-48-Ib 4 x 100 kg
max speed: 298; normal range: 9; maneuver: 20; durability: 32; service rating: 2.

Ki-49-Ia 4 x 250 kg
max speed: 297; normal range: 9; maneuver: 15; durability: 40; service rating: 2.

Ki-51 4 x 50 kg
max speed: 263; normal range: 4; maneuver: 25; durability: 28; service rating: 1.

Ki-57-Ia 3 x 250 kg
max speed: 334; normal range: 14; maneuver: 12; durability: 41; service rating: 3.

[topeverest]

to your question if the allies can see what you are building from an airframe perspective - no. but they can add up your air factories.

Should I assume you will keep KB intact and try to ambush an unsuspecting allied play?

The sub war in 43 typically gives me trouble. Have you thought about the ASW paradigm you will use?

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: dennishe

While I'm waiting for a turn, I studied the IJA bombers. Comparing them to the medium bombers that the Allies get, It blows my mind how poor the bomb loads of the Japanese bombers are. Below you find a list of most of the bombers that the Japanese get at the early stage of the war. To illustrate how poor the bomb loads are, I also added a couple of fighters. The Ki-43-IIa and the Ki-45 KAIa can carry a substantially larger bomb load than all Japanese light bombers together. I do not see a point in building these. Except a few perhaps for ASW duties. The light bombers will be upgraded via the Ki-45 to the Ki-43 as mentioned by Captain Cruft in his AAR. Also the Ki-48 does have an aweful bomb load. I will build only little of these and upgrade them to the Ki-21. This will be my main IJA bomber, until the second generation Ki-49s become available...

Yep. Bomb loads suck. It's like using a Havoc as your best bomber platform, with some Hudsons thrown in for color.

You'll spend a lot of PPs upgrading through the FB path. It's 250 a pop per Sentai. Too cost prohibitive for me in the beginning. Maybe worth it though if those also get into the NF path to be used later to defend the Home Islands. That's something I hadn't thought of before. Hmmmmmm.

I think the Oscar is too fragile against any Brit/US units or bases as it can't stand up to heavy flak in a bombing run. Cruft stopped using them in low ground role pretty quickly, but of course they can work as a kami later.

Upgrading to the 2E line is the way I went, at only 75 PP per Sentai, and these are great ASW platforms as well.

[dennishe]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: dennishe

While I'm waiting for a turn, I studied the IJA bombers. Comparing them to the medium bombers that the Allies get, It blows my mind how poor the bomb loads of the Japanese bombers are. Below you find a list of most of the bombers that the Japanese get at the early stage of the war. To illustrate how poor the bomb loads are, I also added a couple of fighters. The Ki-43-IIa and the Ki-45 KAIa can carry a substantially larger bomb load than all Japanese light bombers together. I do not see a point in building these. Except a few perhaps for ASW duties. The light bombers will be upgraded via the Ki-45 to the Ki-43 as mentioned by Captain Cruft in his AAR. Also the Ki-48 does have an aweful bomb load. I will build only little of these and upgrade them to the Ki-21. This will be my main IJA bomber, until the second generation Ki-49s become available...

Yep. Bomb loads suck. It's like using a Havoc as your best bomber platform, with some Hudsons thrown in for color.

You'll spend a lot of PPs upgrading through the FB path. It's 250 a pop per Sentai. Too cost prohibitive for me in the beginning. Maybe worth it though if those also get into the NF path to be used later to defend the Home Islands. That's something I hadn't thought of before. Hmmmmmm.

I think the Oscar is too fragile against any Brit/US units or bases as it can't stand up to heavy flak in a bombing run. Cruft stopped using them in low ground role pretty quickly, but of course they can work as a kami later.

Upgrading to the 2E line is the way I went, at only 75 PP per Sentai, and these are great ASW platforms as well.

Thanks! I did not realize that converting them trough the FB path would be so expensive. I will need lots of PPs to free up divisions from Japan and Manchukwo to stop the Allies dead cold in Burma and at Ambon-Kendari-Kupang, if they take the Darwin route to the SRA. Converting the light bombers to Helens and Sally's may indeed be a good alternative. I might save a couple of squadrons for training and ASW duties if I'm short on PPs.

Edit: rethinking this with respect to the utter uselessness of the Japanese bombers, I might still convert several squadrons trough the FB route, yet not use them for bombing runs...

I do not have a clear strategy yet on how to handle the Allied subs from '43 onwards. The SCs basically are one of the few merchant platforms that I'm actually building at the moment. A dozen of SC-TFs, in combination with float and LBA ASW squadrons near key points on the shipping lanes hopefully results in sinking of at least some subs(?). Advice would be welcome here...

[obvert]

Hey,

The ASW has been a pet project of mine. I've so far limited hits to big TKs by subs to under 20, and current number of Allied subs sunk is somewhere between 115-125 by 1/45 if reports are close to correct.

Firstly, all of what I learned started with rader in his match with GJ and an earlier one with Jzanes. I've probably done a few things differently as I learned more, but some of it is still a mystery as we never really now what hit a sub (or what was dropped) from the air since there is not indication in the reports.

1) I don't use search arcs, at all. When I've done some limited tests the planes performed better in ASW without search arcs. I only use them for some search if I want to restrict search from an area due to CAP. I use a lot of night search. It brings DL up in that phase making sub attacks less effective at night and ASW TFs find and hit them more often. It may keep some DL in to the day phase but I've never been sure about that. So each area will have a night search Jake group, usually 6-9planes, and each AV moving with big TK convoys will have Jakes night searching also. This is critical so I convert some of the Kyushu and other big fast xAK to AV as soon as possible. The Husimi can work too, but then it's only really small 4 plane groups.

1a) All Jake pilots have 60-70 search, 60-70 ASW and 60-70 low naval. Their bombs do make the subs go home which is nearly as good as killing them. In the beginning they train in groups while flying the ASW mission. So ASW mission at 40% ASW, 40% train, 20% rest at 1k altitude at 8 hex max. Later I'll switch the mission to naval bombing which will train in low naval even though they're still running ASW. Most already have search as this is trained in the first months.

Night search is usually 50% search, 20% rest and 8 hexes, but 10 will be used if needed, especially in the area South of the HI with those big open deep water sections of sea.

Then there are some big training groups (usually flying my surplus crap Dave, Glen and Alf planes) in the first year getting a pool of these pilots. Later they're used to train fighter, bomber and recon pilots.

2) The IJAAF 2E groups are my main killer ASW platforms. When I put 25-50 planes in an area Allied subs usually go away after a few turns, which lets me know it's having an effect. These train in exactly the same manner as the Jakes, but they have to of course finish China first, so in the beginning it's a lot of smaller groups of 9-12, and they're not really effective until mid-late 42. All restricted 1E IJAAF planes will train low naval and ASW in the first few months, and some non-restricted. A few Anns might also be used in a pinch to fly ASW missions. if you keep all of the IJAAF pilots in the planes that are 60 exp and good at ground bombing, they'll still train up as ASW pilots over time set on the 40/40/20 system at 1k, usually max normal range distance. Makes them multi-use, but does take longer than starting from scratch. I do a bit of both.

For the IJNAF the Kate is the best platform, and all KB TB pilots get ASW training when waiting to strike, also bringing their experience and defensive skills up. By the end of 42 nearly every LBA and KB Kate pilots will have at least 60 ASW skill and 65-70 search skills, and these fly at 2k to use their good naval bombing (not low naval) skill. Later I still produce the Kate as it has MAD which helps in 44 when it starts working.

I will use the IJN 2E planes occasionally, but mostly to search a broad area for subs to get the other more well trained units into the right places and to send in the ASW surface forces.

3) The ASW surface forces will have as good commanders as I can afford for the ships, which then function as TF leaders as well. High naval skill and aggressiveness. At first we have to use the crap SC and SC CHa ships a lot, then relegate them to escort and close to port defenses due to their range. The E and DMS ships are good early, but the DMS are also precious for minesweeping with combat and amphib TFs. I use older DDs and even first line modern DDs in critical areas like off of Balikpapan. If I use good DDs I'll step up night search as well, to help protect them.

I don't use the PB much in ASW TFs. Sometimes you have to though.

All surface ASW will be patrolling some needed area and move according to sightings. I may also use them to move with a TF on follow to shepherd it into a port. Usually just patrolling the route slightly ahead works well too.

It's a fun part of the game and can really frustrate the Allied player who of course think it's their right to dominate the sub war, as that's what happened in the war. [;)]

I agree the Japanese couldn't have been this good, but they could have been a bit better.

[dennishe]

Thanks Obvert,

This is very useful

[&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o]

[PaxMondo]

+1 To all of obverts ASW comments. I do everything the same except I do use search arcs. Night and Day searches are critical as subs do lose most of the DL each phase. Air ASW is for DL, Nav ASW is to prosecute. Like obvert, I find most of my air hits only damage the subs as they need on average 3 hits to sink. Nav ASW has higher chances to get those multiple hits to sink.

[Spidery]

Great stuff Obvert. I think I may be making some changes to my plans...

[&o][&o][&o]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

+1 To all of obverts ASW comments. I do everything the same except I do use search arcs. Night and Day searches are critical as subs do lose most of the DL each phase. Air ASW is for DL, Nav ASW is to prosecute. Like obvert, I find most of my air hits only damage the subs as they need on average 3 hits to sink. Nav ASW has higher chances to get those multiple hits to sink.

While the smaller bomb Jake units seem to only damage the subs, I do get a lot of reported sinkings (in the ship losses list where it shows the destructive ordnance that most likely took out the sub) from the 250kg bombs used by IJAAF and Kates. Many I'm sure are sunk with these groups and I know Pax and I disagree on low naval training for ASW, but it does seem to work for me. I note a big increase in HIT messages once groups are around 65-70 low naval trained.

Also, if I need more range I use part search part SAW at 1k for the IJAAF 2E getting out to 11 hexes, and that low naval skill will still mean that if they attack while searching there is a much better hit chance.

[KenchiSulla]

Hate to be a spoiler but aircraft detecting subs at night without radar... it is what it is, but it is dubious if you ask me...

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Hate to be a spoiler but aircraft detecting subs at night without radar... it is what it is, but it is dubious if you ask me...

It works for both sides in game, and is part of the game.

[dennishe]

We didn't negotiate much houserules. Except that PPs must be paid for moving troops out of restricted areas. My subs and miniKBs are hitting the Allied shipping hard. Especially in the Philippine area. And besides the Prince of Wales also the Pennsylvania, California and Nevada turned up in the sunk ship list. Hopefully they will stay there...

December 15th 1941: The British are up to something. They moving ships out of Singapore loaded with troops. One of these was hit by a torpedo from a submarine, which confirmed the troops on board. Also there is a lot of shipping at the very north of Sumatra. It seems the Allies are reinforcing Sabang. The IJN is still pushing to take Palembang as early as possible. In the meantime KB is bombarding Wake Island. The invasion fleet is expected to land tomorrow...

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Hate to be a spoiler but aircraft detecting subs at night without radar... it is what it is, but it is dubious if you ask me...

It works for both sides in game, and is part of the game.

+1