Fischia il Vento - loki100 vs smokindave34 ... German marginal victory T94

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I think bombing railyards in Germany at this stage is a waste. Railyard bombing is important at choke points, like Northern France in 1944. It's not going to do much in Central Germany at this stage. You're better off dropping those bombs on something else, like Manpower, HI, or Fuel....

fair comment, guess this (and my vs AI game) is a bit of an experiment. If I understand the effect is two fold, there is the immediate increase in the cost of loading and unloading units. Agree that in 1943 this is no real issue as realistically the German player does not need to fear a massive secondary landing (? maybe) so that is a minor problem. The second gain though is that the manual indicates that the level of functioning railyards creates the capacity to move resources as well as supply around. So snipping at that, means that the production remains where it was produced not where it was needed.

[loki100]

Turn 8: 28 August – 3 September 1943

The hammering that 8 Air force took in the previous turn rather influenced my options this time. The good news was one of the highest per-turn VP counts I've managed for bombing:



This, however, puts it all in context:



Unless there is a real need, I don't use airgroups under 70 morale. In this case, resting a lot of 8 Air is not just a response to shattered morale, its also a method to allow my pools to recover.

I decided to only use Bomber Command over Germany, leaving 8 Air to carry on bombing infrastructure in France.

In the Med, I carry on covering both potential landing zones (Lauria and Salerno), but now I've spotted a lot of the Luftwaffe bases so shift most of the available tactical and level bombers to hitting airfields



I'm keeping the fighter bombers back for now, I find they suffer too many losses on airfield raids and want them nice and fresh for when I shift to interdiction.

The net result was air losses back to normal:

Bomber Command did an excellent job on Freiburg and Kleve



In the Med, the first round of airbase attacks destroyed around 40 planes on the ground and a lot more fighters around their airbases.



Have built up good levels of naval interdiction at both potential landing sites but decide not to risk an invasion this turn. I still have time, and would like to continue weakening the Luftwaffe if I can. So having made a start on this strategy, I'd like to escalate it before risking too much.

[marion61]

Your strategic bombers are taking all those losses needlessly. Your flying missions where the fighter intercepts outnumber you. If you hit a one hex target, set the strike number to 1, and set requested to a number above the planes you have. This will send them on one mission to that target a day with the maximum planes available. This will stop his turning a lot of your bombers back, and it will increase bombing damage significantly. These are dumb bombs, and the more you drop at once, the better chance you have of hitting something intended. Set a 1 hex this way for one city, for two days, then create another for another city for two more days, and then a third for two days, and give them the 7th day off. You lower fatigue from flying everyday that far, but you will see bomb damage increase and you won't lose as many planes and you'll be killing a lot more of his. I set my bombers flying that far into staggered days. Day's 1-3 and 5-7. You wear them out if you fly them to Hamburg or further day after day.

My two and a half cents.[8D]

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: meklore61

Your strategic bombers are taking all those losses needlessly. Your flying missions where the fighter intercepts outnumber you. If you hit a one hex target, set the strike number to 1, and set requested to a number above the planes you have. This will send them on one mission to that target a day with the maximum planes available. This will stop his turning a lot of your bombers back, and it will increase bombing damage significantly. These are dumb bombs, and the more you drop at once, the better chance you have of hitting something intended. Set a 1 hex this way for one city, for two days, then create another for another city for two more days, and then a third for two days, and give them the 7th day off. You lower fatigue from flying everyday that far, but you will see bomb damage increase and you won't lose as many planes and you'll be killing a lot more of his. I set my bombers flying that far into staggered days. Day's 1-3 and 5-7. You wear them out if you fly them to Hamburg or further day after day.

My two and a half cents.[8D]

thanks for this, one thing I am struggling with though is how to get planes to appear in multiple directives?

Have started reducing the number of raids to 1 a day.

More generally that disaster at Frankfurt was due to a gamble that failed. Mostly I don't bomb the same target more than one week in the hope that smokindave will move on his fighters, so this time I gambled that he had redeployed ... and he hadn't.

all part of the fun (? [;)]) aspect of the air planning game, great when you feel you have gained an advantage, horrible when you realise you have badly miscalculated

[loki100]

Turn 9: 4 – 10 September 1943

I'm slowly losing control of the U-Boat part of the VP war. My disaster a few weeks back with 8 Airforce has both reduced my capacity to hit the U-boat factories and my willingness to risk further heavy losses. Bomber Command sometimes does a decent amount of damage but most time inflicts limited damage that I guess will repair very quickly.



In Italy my air campaign is all about trying to judge where the Axis forces are, setting off a bit of confusion and from now on, trying to force the Luftaffe to fight when it suits me.



To try and recover some U-boat points, I decide to risk 8 Air at Bremen. Organise everything into a single raid of 520 bomber and 350 escorts. Bomber Command goes for the Ruhr and soft targets in the south.



None of which works out well. Bomber Command takes serious losses in the Ruhr and 8 Air losses almost 300 bombers over Bremen.



The only reward is that Bomber Command did do a lot of damage at the Ruhr as did 8 Airforce.

In Italy my campaign of attacking the Luftwaffe directly continues with 80 fighters and bombers destroyed on the ground.



I also now have a pretty good idea of the German deployments (both land and air).

[JocMeister]

Ouch! 300 bombers in week. What settings are you using? [X(]

This early in the war I would do 1 big strike 3 times per week to minimize losses. Due to pools running dry I was down to 2 strikes per week for a while. But I was using an older version where the B17G wasn´t available until 2 months later then it is now.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Ouch! 300 bombers in week. What settings are you using? [X(]

This early in the war I would do 1 big strike 3 times per week to minimize losses. Due to pools running dry I was down to 2 strikes per week for a while. But I was using an older version where the B17G wasn´t available until 2 months later then it is now.

I'm still making the mental shift from vs AI... where mistakes may hurt ... to PBEM (where they can hurt very badly). In that case I forgot to lift the altitude which would've helped a lot and perhaps only 2 days not the 3 I did.

The AAR is about 10-12 turns behind where we are up to.

In defense, it wasn't just oversight, it was a deliberate attempt to send in a heavily protected raid in the hope of damaging the Luftwaffe too. So part of the trade off was the city's industries pretty much trashed and 76 German fighters lost.

I guess I am still hunting for a tool that will work as attrition rather than anything more subtle.

[jwolf]

OK let's say you took out 76 enemy fighters for the loss of 300 of your bombers. I honestly don't know how the numbers work out, but if you say it then I'll believe this level of attrition works in the Allies' favor. Nevertheless, this strategy seems almost ... Stalinesque ... transplanting the brutal attrition of the Eastern Front onto the air war over NW Europe.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: jwolf

OK let's say you took out 76 enemy fighters for the loss of 300 of your bombers. I honestly don't know how the numbers work out, but if you say it then I'll believe this level of attrition works in the Allies' favor. Nevertheless, this strategy seems almost ... Stalinesque ... transplanting the brutal attrition of the Eastern Front onto the air war over NW Europe.

no the strategy was potentially sound, go in mob handed with a lot of escorts and come away with 1-1 losses, the reality was it was a disaster, I didn't even get 1-1 with the fighter losses.

Lot to learn about managing the strategic airwar, its relatively easy vs AI, harder when a player concentrates and sets traps for you

But this is the one aspect of the game where you can convert relative strength to dominance via attrition. You certainly can't do with the Allied ground forces, but as with the Soviets, its all too easy to disapate brute strength

[loki100]

Turn 10: 11-17 September 1943

VP situation remains pretty steady. Last turn was a net +2 for bombing (+4 in general, -2 for U-Boats), so there is that reward for my heavy losses. But I think I can't cope with this pattern carrying on for much longer.



Anyway in Italy, carry on preparing for the main assault. This time I have decided to invade, so everything is concentrated around the planned landings at Salerno. The actual invasion is 2 infantry divisions supported by the British 1 Airborne



I also carry on bombing the Luftwaffe on the ground. Also this turn most of the squadrons I moved from the UK are ready so I commit the Fighter Bombers to generate interdiction around Salerno

After last turn's losses, I restrict Bomber Command and 8 Air to single well escorted raids.

The result is air losses down to 372, with the air field attacks being the most costly.



And thus elements of US 5 Army approach the coast



… I am not at all confident about this. My fear of a major disaster is one reason why I am opting to land just 2 divisions on a single beach [1]. At the least it should knock Italy out of the war and I think all German units have been withdrawn from Corsica and Sardinia.

[1] - with hindsight, I even picked the wrong beach but we'll come to that error in due time [;)]

[loki100]

Turn 11: 18-24 September 1943

One thing I am experimenting with in this game is moving the great majority of the Allied airforces to Italy in order to try and overwhelm the Luftwaffe.

This might give an overview of how much has been deployed as 2 Tactical Air is down to 322 planes (allocated to a mix of Malta and Tactical Air commands) and also about half of RAF Coastal Command is in the Med.



Unfortunately my paratroops landed on top of a full PzGr Division but I have generated enough interdiction to protect the landings.


(a careful view of that map will point out a major flaw in my plan)

But I'm really not sure I can break out or expand this. The reward is an Italian surrender and since no Germans were on Corsica or Sardinia then I have both islands under my control [1]

VP situation worsened due to losses in airborne troops



In Italy, my air attacks carried on hitting the Luftwaffe's bases. In northern Europe, I'm still nursing 8 Air and Bomber Command so only limited air raids till they can recover (both morale and numbers).

The other reward is a weakening of the German defense at Reggio Calabria. 8 Army crosses at Messina to take advantage.





[1] – this seems to be one of those nice gambles in the game. All I'd done was to prepare a very weak invasion of Sardinia just in case the Germans were still there. In effect, a weak residual defense would have forced a diversion and instead I've been concentrating on preparing a massive invasion north of Rome and have both islands to fill up with aircraft.

[loki100]

Turn 12: 25 September – 1 October 1943

My paratroop losses last turn means I am now behind in VP. Not a surprise and not yet of any major concern. Bombing results are neutral so at least I am gaining something for all my losses.



Air war in Italy is now focussed on inflicting long term damage. So carry on wrecking the rail infrastructure, protect my landings but I am now after the Luftwaffe. I've spotted a number of concentrations of bombers and those are my main targets if I am to manage a successful landing at Rome.



Northern Europe is mostly about destroying infrastructure. Send 8 Air goes for Hannover but Bomber Command to Aachen. The results are not too bad over Germany



The Luftwaffe winter sun vacation near Foggia is rudely interrupted



Now many of those are just damaged, but even so they won't be causing me much trouble next turn. Also by damaging the airbase I slow the speed at which planes can repair.

On land, I abandon plans to reinforce my landing but decide to stay in position for now. 2 of my divisions are tieing down 6 German divisions (incl 1 Pzr and 2 PzrGr). In the far south, I cross the Straights of Messina but Reggio Calabria itself is still strongly held.

[Q-Ball]

I wonder if running naval interdiction off Salerno before your landing tipped your hand.

If you are planning a move north of Rome, make sure you start expanding all the airfields on Corsica and Sardinia ASAP, particularly Corsica. I would even build new ones on towns where you can. You will need max aircraft based there.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I wonder if running naval interdiction off Salerno before your landing tipped your hand.

If you are planning a move north of Rome, make sure you start expanding all the airfields on Corsica and Sardinia ASAP, particularly Corsica. I would even build new ones on towns where you can. You will need max aircraft based there.

I was trying to confuse him (possibly being too clever for my own good) by setting up advanced interdiction at both Salerno and Lauria. My mistake was landing the wrong side of the river, now my TFs are taking attrition from Salerno.

Corsica is being concreted over with precisely the aim of projecting short range fighters into Lazio. It also gives me a medium threat to the South of France.

But the mistake at Salerno is going to cause quite a few problems

[loki100]

Turn 13: 2-8 October 1943

The air war in Italy split into three related missions. Most of the naval air was protecting Salerno, a significant chunk of Strategic and Tactical air were carrying on bombing the Luftwaffe around Foggia. Finally some of Tactical Air were engaged in supporting 8 Army's advance up from Reggio Calabria.

In Nothern Europe, I scale back both 8 Air and Bomber Command to single raids after the losses from last turn.

Results are mixed. Bomber Command has problems hitting Germany never mind its designated target but 8 Air does serious damage to Cologne.

Hitting the Luftwaffe on the ground is starting to pay off with about 60-80 planes a week destroyed that way and overall air losses at a 2-1 ratio.



On the ground, my first attempt to shift the Germans near Catanzaro is beaten off.



However, even a single turn of relatively limited direct air strikes produced a lot of disrupted elements.



VP situation worsens a little, mainly as I have not really attacked the U-Boat production over recent turns.



It was at this stage I started to rethink my Italian strategy. I have the two most critical things – Italy is out of the war and I have enough terrain to avoid the 1944 VP penalty. Equally Corsica can both support strategic bombing of Southern Germany and possibly an invasion of Southern France.

This is relevant as my TF at Salerno is taking steady damage. In fact for T14 I forgot that you need the TF to preserve a temp port and moved it back, kindly Smokindave agreed to let me redo that portion of the turn.

So this may argue for no further commitment. On the other hand, 2 divisions at Salerno are pinning down 7 German divisions (a pretty good trade off for me), and taking Rome will give me southern Italy and all the airbases I need for a sustained strategic attack on both Germany and Romania.

I didn't need to decide for some time, in any case uncertainty is good for my opponent.

In truth, I'm finding out the hard way how different the game is PBEM as opposed to vs the AI.

[loki100]

Turn 14: 9 – 15 October 1943

In nothern Europe my bombing pattern is much as usual. Swap targets and decide to risk the U-Boats again, but basically trying to do as much damage as I can for as few losses as possible.

In Italy, am protecting my landings, and specific bombing raids on airbases around Foggia, At the top of the toe, the ground attacks are aimed at supply lines but also allocate a lot of Typhoons and similar to blowing up that annoying Pz Brigade stopping my march on Rome.



Results are not too bad, Bomber Command does well over Hamburg and 8 Air does decent damage at Cologne, not least in inflicting heavy losses on the Luftwaffe.



German air losses on the ground steadily increase.



In Italy, I generate a reasonable level of interdiction around Castrigillari



And clear out that annoying PzGr formation (helped this time as there was no reserve reaction). This time air power was less effective but then it is in hilly terrain.



8 Army makes some progress along the western coast of Calabria.

[loki100]

Turn 15: 16-22 October 1943

VP situation by this turn was not bad. The strategic air war has a net score of 0 (+4 for bombing, -4 for U-Boats) which reflects my pattern of attacks in recent turns.

In Italy, the air war is much as last turn: protect the landings; bomb the rail infrastructure; hit the Luftwaffe around Foggia; and, interdict supply into Calabria.



The weather in northern Europe is very poor so no missions flown there.

German air losses on the ground escalate with just over 70 destroyed around Foggia and an overall exchange ratio of 3:2.





Equally while I am destroying some planes outright, substantial numbers will be unavailable and of course with the air fields wrecked, their recovery of damaged planes is a lot slower.

On land, British and American tanks race past the German positions in the mountains and seize Costenza. This is a little bit risky but to really make me pay, the Germans will need to commit quite a lot more to the battles in Calabria.

[Q-Ball]

Nice job on that AF bombing! I have found that while the Luftwaffe will run out of pilots, generally there are plenty of FB replacements. The Luftwaffe will run out of Level Bombers, however, as production drops off in 1944 and ends completely in August. It's good to toast alot on the ground now

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Nice job on that AF bombing! I have found that while the Luftwaffe will run out of pilots, generally there are plenty of FB replacements. The Luftwaffe will run out of Level Bombers, however, as production drops off in 1944 and ends completely in August. It's good to toast alot on the ground now

I'm basically trying to weaken the Luftwaffe to the stage that in 1944 I can be active on two sectors if I want. I think I can manage that *if* the Luftwaffe is so battered that it can only contest one so that my planes are flying with no real opposition and I don't need to do too much to protect my naval supply lines

[loki100]

Turn 16: 23-29 October 1943

In VP turns, am facing a small loss due to lack of focus on the U-Boats. Overall bombing score is -3 (+5 for cities etc, -8 for U-Boats).

In Italy, the Germans have run away in Calabria.



Bomber Command is ordered to hit Hamburg and Hannover to make up for the lack of U-Boat Vps.



In Italy, same bombing pattern as before. Hit the rail yards, hit supply movement and hit the main Luftwaffe bases.

Overall, Bomber Command is reasonably successful at Hamburg but the Hannover raid makes little real impact. US 8 Air does heavily bomb Cologne.



German air losses mount, especially those lost on the ground



On land, still preparing for a naval landing at Rome and, to be honest, increasingly wondering if this is really a good idea. I have air bases to reach S Germany and Romania and I've a few badly damaged TF due to my error at Salerno.