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Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
RE: RHS Map Art
Nice choice for Light Urban and Heavy Urban icons. Very small and non-intrusive, yet the meaning can be deduced at once. Great work.
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el cid again
- Posts: 16984
- Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:40 pm
RE: RHS Map Art
Concur in detail with Yaab
ORIGINAL: Yaab
Nice choice for Light Urban and Heavy Urban icons. Very small and non-intrusive, yet the meaning can be deduced at once. Great work.
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Rising-Sun
- Posts: 2235
- Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:27 am
- Location: Clifton Park, NY
- Contact:
RE: RHS Map Art
Email chemkid for the Topo 2 map tiles.
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el cid again
- Posts: 16984
- Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:40 pm
RE: RHS Map Art
I sent this email to our mapmaker. The changes involved will be part of an update today.
Text:
I came across a remarkable new map of "Eastern China" and another
of "Northern India" - which are on a larger scale than previously available.
Combining these with other maps of Burma, India and China, and also
integrating information in a scholarly book on documents about the "Silk
Roads" - I have figured out a slightly better model for the game map.
Part of the problem is scale distortion; another part is stock map art itself
being somewhat misleading. I have attempted a minimalist solution which
also models fairly well. There actually is a bit of slop because in some
places alternate more or less parallel routes were used (depending on
weather and political conditions).
The biggest nominal change does not involve map art at all - unless we put
in names like "The North Silk Road" - because although it is very different than
we had - everything was on the map already and/or I could change the text
name to say "N Silk Road." The change is that before I used the stock main
road as the "N Silk Road" - but that isn't quite true as one approaches the map
edge. The Silk Road enters the map to the "West" (North) of Kashgar (location 1097 hex 71/6) - goes to Kashgar - and then splits into two branches to go above or below what we think of as the Gobi Desert (correctly named Tarim Basin by Andrew in stock map art). These branches - both on the map - meet and join again at Ansi (location 1535 hex 80/23 - from which point there is but one North Silk Road - until it ends at Baoji (location 1728 hex 82/39). From Baoji all the way to Shanghai I give most locations the suffix "Mother Road" - but technically the "Mother Road INCLUDES the North Silk Road all the way to Samarkand (West of our map area). Because this is all on the existing map as road or secondary road art - I have divided the North Silk Road into NE Silk Road and NW Silk Road branches between Kashgar and Ansi (where NE is the Northern Route and NW is the longer Southern Route). Mainly as chrome - but it does "explain" why Andrew put these roads in the map art. In RHS the oasis town along the route DO produce a lot of supplies - and are the only points where a military force might be supported (if modest in size). The Northern route also moves a few resources and oil - but the Southern route only moves supplies - all resources are consumed at each oasis to make supplies. This is theory and does not affect map work at all - nor pwhexe work either - just location file names. UNLESS you want to put in road names - in which case now you have them.
FYI it is the "Silk Road" NOT because silk is the main product moving on it. Rather because bolts of plain silk are the main money. There was not enough gold to cover the trade - so the Han made three things legal tender - gold, silk and wheat. But wheat rots. Gold was scarce. So Silk was the main money. Troops sent to garrison the route paid for things with bolts of silk - making merchants along the route have lots of that to use for trade - as money!
There is also a "South Silk Road" - but that is a good deal more sloppy. I found a reference yesterday saying the term was used for the "Tea and Horse Caravan Road" - and most sources say it applies to a route that is more or less the route from Kunming to Lashio Burma - and these to the sea down the river system - from which point the trade went over sea routes to the Mideast. I only have a single point marking the South Silk Road - Lao Wing right on the Burma border (location 1710 hex 63/45).
This has not changed.
The changes affect the Tea and Horse Caravan Road. This itself is very difficult to model - and hard to trace. There are two major and two minor variations on its routing in documentation. Yet, paradoxically, this route is much more defined than the North Silk Road is. Up in the desert one can take lots of routes and many points are not rigidly defined. In the Himalayas - mountains and river valleys define things - and capital investment in bridges also forces the route. [The world's oldest Suspension Bridge is on the South Silk Road near my Lio Wing location. From there
Northwest - all the way to Lhasa - ancient suspension bridges were used unless the crossing permitted a traditional stone bridge. The road was also paved in stone at many points - but variable in width from 4 feet to 8 feet to 16 feet! Yet other points it is a true pack trail - more or less 4 feet wide. It fell into disuse in 1945 (when 30,000 merchants went bankrupt because of the sudden end of the war - and they had goods on consignment no longer salable) - but today is getting a trickle of traffic by people interested in seeing it (and trading tea for tradition sake).
I have left the road as is for most of its length - the changes are where the Western
branch meets the Eastern and Southeastern branches - near where the borders of India, China, Tibet and Burma meet. These changes may be seen in the base pwhexe.dat file (also called 41WINTERpwhexe.dat) - attached. Several villages have also moved or been added in this junction area - see the attached location file. I will issue an update later today with all location files and several pwhexe files reflecting these changes.
Changes that should affect map art are
1) changing of where the roads and trails are (run with this pwhexe file)
2) changing the border of Burma to include hexes: 67/38 and 66/37.
3) I moved Fort Hertz location 995 to hex 86/39. It was one hex to the SW. This because stock map art make it appear the valley ends. In fact, 86/39 IS a high
mountain hex - but it should appear there is a portion of it (facing SW) which is a continuation of the valley to the South. This is unique location - still isolated today - and it was entirely air supplied for 25 months during WW2 (once it was found still to be in Allied hands in August 1942). The town is called Pudong. I am unsure how map art will work - never mind with both different schemes you are contemplating? But it occurs to me that pointing out this matter might help it be clear why the location is where the airfield is? Actually - there is a seasonal trail to Myitkynia (however that is spelled) - but it is not practical in game terms and misleading due to map projection distortions in the area - so I am ignoring it. There also appears to be a road over the mountains to India on maps - never mind writers say there isn't. I assume it is a minor route not present in WW2.
4) I changed the location of where the three "arms" of the road meet - the village of Mankang (location 814 hex 66/35). This is NE of where it was before - in China - and it forced the Western branch to move over one diagonal hex column as well as the Eastern branch to be extended farther to the NW - killing its "Westward" turn altogether. The SE branch has a more complicated routing through the mountains.
5) I added the village of Dong in India just at the Burma Frontier. This is in a river valley and the ROAD connections are apparently open all year - but the TRAIL connection to India is lost in Winter. Since this file is a Winter file, the trail is missing from hex 66/37 (where in other seasons it goes to the West and to the NE - connecting India to the Tea and Horse Caravan Road - but only by a steep mountain trail - as it crosses a mountain range).
6) I moved the town of Tezu (location 783) to hex 65/37 - which is more correct re river and road art - and simplified its trail - which now goes directly to Dong in the very NE corner of India - instead of a complicated winding route to the NW and then to the East. However, Tezu is now defined as a port - which in fact it is - but I just confirmed that yesterday.
7) I renamed the town at 66/38 to Changpu (because I had misread the map in the first place, location 1852) - but in fact it is otherwise not changed - accounting for why there is a road East from Ledo? Chengpu is NOT a port and it isn't possible to move a ship there in game terms - but it IS in real life on a river that is SOMETIMES navigable. It isn't used as a port - so we are ignoring the minor river as something of game significance.
The biggest "problem" with map art is the border in 67/38. This hex looks like part of China but in fact it is in Burma. And in fact the road in Burma needs to be longer than it is - so moving the border helps make it appear to be longer. The actual road from Dong India goes to Burma - and then after a brief period - goes to China - it does not go to China immediately. The shape of the border is not quite right whatever we do - because our border follows hexsides but the real one does not. This new model permits a closer fit - but is by no means ideal.
Text:
I came across a remarkable new map of "Eastern China" and another
of "Northern India" - which are on a larger scale than previously available.
Combining these with other maps of Burma, India and China, and also
integrating information in a scholarly book on documents about the "Silk
Roads" - I have figured out a slightly better model for the game map.
Part of the problem is scale distortion; another part is stock map art itself
being somewhat misleading. I have attempted a minimalist solution which
also models fairly well. There actually is a bit of slop because in some
places alternate more or less parallel routes were used (depending on
weather and political conditions).
The biggest nominal change does not involve map art at all - unless we put
in names like "The North Silk Road" - because although it is very different than
we had - everything was on the map already and/or I could change the text
name to say "N Silk Road." The change is that before I used the stock main
road as the "N Silk Road" - but that isn't quite true as one approaches the map
edge. The Silk Road enters the map to the "West" (North) of Kashgar (location 1097 hex 71/6) - goes to Kashgar - and then splits into two branches to go above or below what we think of as the Gobi Desert (correctly named Tarim Basin by Andrew in stock map art). These branches - both on the map - meet and join again at Ansi (location 1535 hex 80/23 - from which point there is but one North Silk Road - until it ends at Baoji (location 1728 hex 82/39). From Baoji all the way to Shanghai I give most locations the suffix "Mother Road" - but technically the "Mother Road INCLUDES the North Silk Road all the way to Samarkand (West of our map area). Because this is all on the existing map as road or secondary road art - I have divided the North Silk Road into NE Silk Road and NW Silk Road branches between Kashgar and Ansi (where NE is the Northern Route and NW is the longer Southern Route). Mainly as chrome - but it does "explain" why Andrew put these roads in the map art. In RHS the oasis town along the route DO produce a lot of supplies - and are the only points where a military force might be supported (if modest in size). The Northern route also moves a few resources and oil - but the Southern route only moves supplies - all resources are consumed at each oasis to make supplies. This is theory and does not affect map work at all - nor pwhexe work either - just location file names. UNLESS you want to put in road names - in which case now you have them.
FYI it is the "Silk Road" NOT because silk is the main product moving on it. Rather because bolts of plain silk are the main money. There was not enough gold to cover the trade - so the Han made three things legal tender - gold, silk and wheat. But wheat rots. Gold was scarce. So Silk was the main money. Troops sent to garrison the route paid for things with bolts of silk - making merchants along the route have lots of that to use for trade - as money!
There is also a "South Silk Road" - but that is a good deal more sloppy. I found a reference yesterday saying the term was used for the "Tea and Horse Caravan Road" - and most sources say it applies to a route that is more or less the route from Kunming to Lashio Burma - and these to the sea down the river system - from which point the trade went over sea routes to the Mideast. I only have a single point marking the South Silk Road - Lao Wing right on the Burma border (location 1710 hex 63/45).
This has not changed.
The changes affect the Tea and Horse Caravan Road. This itself is very difficult to model - and hard to trace. There are two major and two minor variations on its routing in documentation. Yet, paradoxically, this route is much more defined than the North Silk Road is. Up in the desert one can take lots of routes and many points are not rigidly defined. In the Himalayas - mountains and river valleys define things - and capital investment in bridges also forces the route. [The world's oldest Suspension Bridge is on the South Silk Road near my Lio Wing location. From there
Northwest - all the way to Lhasa - ancient suspension bridges were used unless the crossing permitted a traditional stone bridge. The road was also paved in stone at many points - but variable in width from 4 feet to 8 feet to 16 feet! Yet other points it is a true pack trail - more or less 4 feet wide. It fell into disuse in 1945 (when 30,000 merchants went bankrupt because of the sudden end of the war - and they had goods on consignment no longer salable) - but today is getting a trickle of traffic by people interested in seeing it (and trading tea for tradition sake).
I have left the road as is for most of its length - the changes are where the Western
branch meets the Eastern and Southeastern branches - near where the borders of India, China, Tibet and Burma meet. These changes may be seen in the base pwhexe.dat file (also called 41WINTERpwhexe.dat) - attached. Several villages have also moved or been added in this junction area - see the attached location file. I will issue an update later today with all location files and several pwhexe files reflecting these changes.
Changes that should affect map art are
1) changing of where the roads and trails are (run with this pwhexe file)
2) changing the border of Burma to include hexes: 67/38 and 66/37.
3) I moved Fort Hertz location 995 to hex 86/39. It was one hex to the SW. This because stock map art make it appear the valley ends. In fact, 86/39 IS a high
mountain hex - but it should appear there is a portion of it (facing SW) which is a continuation of the valley to the South. This is unique location - still isolated today - and it was entirely air supplied for 25 months during WW2 (once it was found still to be in Allied hands in August 1942). The town is called Pudong. I am unsure how map art will work - never mind with both different schemes you are contemplating? But it occurs to me that pointing out this matter might help it be clear why the location is where the airfield is? Actually - there is a seasonal trail to Myitkynia (however that is spelled) - but it is not practical in game terms and misleading due to map projection distortions in the area - so I am ignoring it. There also appears to be a road over the mountains to India on maps - never mind writers say there isn't. I assume it is a minor route not present in WW2.
4) I changed the location of where the three "arms" of the road meet - the village of Mankang (location 814 hex 66/35). This is NE of where it was before - in China - and it forced the Western branch to move over one diagonal hex column as well as the Eastern branch to be extended farther to the NW - killing its "Westward" turn altogether. The SE branch has a more complicated routing through the mountains.
5) I added the village of Dong in India just at the Burma Frontier. This is in a river valley and the ROAD connections are apparently open all year - but the TRAIL connection to India is lost in Winter. Since this file is a Winter file, the trail is missing from hex 66/37 (where in other seasons it goes to the West and to the NE - connecting India to the Tea and Horse Caravan Road - but only by a steep mountain trail - as it crosses a mountain range).
6) I moved the town of Tezu (location 783) to hex 65/37 - which is more correct re river and road art - and simplified its trail - which now goes directly to Dong in the very NE corner of India - instead of a complicated winding route to the NW and then to the East. However, Tezu is now defined as a port - which in fact it is - but I just confirmed that yesterday.
7) I renamed the town at 66/38 to Changpu (because I had misread the map in the first place, location 1852) - but in fact it is otherwise not changed - accounting for why there is a road East from Ledo? Chengpu is NOT a port and it isn't possible to move a ship there in game terms - but it IS in real life on a river that is SOMETIMES navigable. It isn't used as a port - so we are ignoring the minor river as something of game significance.
The biggest "problem" with map art is the border in 67/38. This hex looks like part of China but in fact it is in Burma. And in fact the road in Burma needs to be longer than it is - so moving the border helps make it appear to be longer. The actual road from Dong India goes to Burma - and then after a brief period - goes to China - it does not go to China immediately. The shape of the border is not quite right whatever we do - because our border follows hexsides but the real one does not. This new model permits a closer fit - but is by no means ideal.
-
el cid again
- Posts: 16984
- Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:40 pm
RE: RHS Map Art
A question came in from a user about the impact of updates on ongoing games which are started now?
This caused me to review development planning from the point of view of its impact on existing (rather than new start) games. Further, I considered the way the new map system is being developed as part of the review.
History will repeat itself, slightly. In WITP days, RHS/WITP ultimately had three "levels" - I, II and III. Level I was the stock system. Level II was a demonstration but primitive map edge movement track system. Level III was a developed map edge movement system with mini-maps for Madagascar and Panama added. In RHS/AE will have only two levels: Level I will use the stock maps. Level II will use the revised maps.
The new map system is similar to Andrew Brown's Extended Map System in some ways: in particular its treatment of Luzon and Shortlands (to separate adjacent locations better modeled separately). A somewhat similar extension to the "Northern" map edge will happen, but involve fewer hexes and location. At the same time, more development of off map movement tracks will be attempted. Also, we will attempt to incorporate a rescaled version of the Madagascar map Andrew did for RHS/WITP (attached). The new map art is being developed for this use - not for direct replacement of stock map panels - at the suggestion of the artist.
The addition of 11 locations for Madagascar, plus at least Recife Brazil off map,
means we must lose about eight locations. This is NOT going to be possible with ongoing games. For safety, we need to delete about 20 minor locations to permit future developments planned for what is now RHS/AE Level II.
Another issue is that we cannot add more scenarios and still upload the compiler - it is at maximum size now (with 7 scenarios - of which only 5 are playable).
The two Levels will mostly have similar scenarios. Scenarios 101-105 in Level I will be duplicated in Level II using numbers 121-125. Unissued Scenario 99 may be dropped - it needs extensive work. Otherwise it will become Scenario 129 in RHS/SE Level II. Unissued Scenario 106 will continue to serve as a 1945 test bed and, if/when completed, will NOT be duplicated in Level II. It is the only RHS mini scenario and extensive development of map edge areas or the Madagascar area is not warranted for it. It is mini-in time - lasting 575 days (from the Battle for Iwo Jima to the end of Monsoon 1946). It is developed for play vs AI as Japan, and permitting the use of kamakaze aircraft (similar to stock's Downfall Scenario). It is also Simplified RHS - similar to 102 and 104 - lacking some of the smallest units and with a simplified aircraft production system for both sides (with cruder production ramp ups) - for ease of play.
I will issue an update today with a "frozen" set of locations for RHS/AE Level I. That means any game started after today will never have a location changing names (to something inconvenient - a South Pacific island becoming a town on Madagascar for example). Otherwise, location industry order and unit device order and similar orders for ships will be respected - to permit folding in all later updates without major impacts on ongoing games. The changes today are minor - in Bhutan and on Timor - and wiping out some locations likely never to be used in any game (as "free space" for development of Level II) - mainly in the far SE Pacific area.
This caused me to review development planning from the point of view of its impact on existing (rather than new start) games. Further, I considered the way the new map system is being developed as part of the review.
History will repeat itself, slightly. In WITP days, RHS/WITP ultimately had three "levels" - I, II and III. Level I was the stock system. Level II was a demonstration but primitive map edge movement track system. Level III was a developed map edge movement system with mini-maps for Madagascar and Panama added. In RHS/AE will have only two levels: Level I will use the stock maps. Level II will use the revised maps.
The new map system is similar to Andrew Brown's Extended Map System in some ways: in particular its treatment of Luzon and Shortlands (to separate adjacent locations better modeled separately). A somewhat similar extension to the "Northern" map edge will happen, but involve fewer hexes and location. At the same time, more development of off map movement tracks will be attempted. Also, we will attempt to incorporate a rescaled version of the Madagascar map Andrew did for RHS/WITP (attached). The new map art is being developed for this use - not for direct replacement of stock map panels - at the suggestion of the artist.
The addition of 11 locations for Madagascar, plus at least Recife Brazil off map,
means we must lose about eight locations. This is NOT going to be possible with ongoing games. For safety, we need to delete about 20 minor locations to permit future developments planned for what is now RHS/AE Level II.
Another issue is that we cannot add more scenarios and still upload the compiler - it is at maximum size now (with 7 scenarios - of which only 5 are playable).
The two Levels will mostly have similar scenarios. Scenarios 101-105 in Level I will be duplicated in Level II using numbers 121-125. Unissued Scenario 99 may be dropped - it needs extensive work. Otherwise it will become Scenario 129 in RHS/SE Level II. Unissued Scenario 106 will continue to serve as a 1945 test bed and, if/when completed, will NOT be duplicated in Level II. It is the only RHS mini scenario and extensive development of map edge areas or the Madagascar area is not warranted for it. It is mini-in time - lasting 575 days (from the Battle for Iwo Jima to the end of Monsoon 1946). It is developed for play vs AI as Japan, and permitting the use of kamakaze aircraft (similar to stock's Downfall Scenario). It is also Simplified RHS - similar to 102 and 104 - lacking some of the smallest units and with a simplified aircraft production system for both sides (with cruder production ramp ups) - for ease of play.
I will issue an update today with a "frozen" set of locations for RHS/AE Level I. That means any game started after today will never have a location changing names (to something inconvenient - a South Pacific island becoming a town on Madagascar for example). Otherwise, location industry order and unit device order and similar orders for ships will be respected - to permit folding in all later updates without major impacts on ongoing games. The changes today are minor - in Bhutan and on Timor - and wiping out some locations likely never to be used in any game (as "free space" for development of Level II) - mainly in the far SE Pacific area.