When are stacking penalties applied to a hex?

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Stacking limits outside of island sizes are not sui generis.  They impact just like everything else referred to in s.3.0, 15.0 and 15.1 of the manual.

There are several factors which are taken into account in estimating how much supply a LCU will need.  The number of "shots" fired in combat will increase the supply determination.  If the hex has a stacking limit the consumption formula provided by michaelm is another discrete variable which is taken into account in the estimate.  The repairing and replacement of devices is another variable.

All the relevant variables for supply consumption and fatigue are taken into account in the "Supply Operations" phase which is detailed in the logistics chapter of the manual.  This is after combat has occurred and any malus which results (for example there being insufficient supply on hand) remains until the next "Supply Operations" phase which follows the next land combat phase.

Alfred

Digressing just a little bit, but the bolded part... even if supply is dropped to the hex by air or amphibious TF? It's been a while since this sort of situation has occurred in my games, but I had thought that dropping supply via plane or ship into a hex that wasn't a friendly base meant that the supply went directly into the organic supply of the unit(s) in the hex.

Now, the underlined part: when you say "all the relevant variables for supply consumption and fatigue", would stacking penalties be taken into account at this point as well?

[Alfred]

1.  Yes, when you do not own the base (or there isn't a base at all) supply goes to the LCUs themselves but there is a limit to their organic holding capacity.
 
(a) Air dropped supply is conducted during the "supply operations" phase which is only conducted during daylight and after combat.
 
(b) Amphibious landings see the troops landing with their organic supply and any surplus supply carried on the vessels gets distributed after combat when the "supply operations" phase is run.  There was a bug a long time ago squashed by michaelm where an invading LCU could hoard supply above its "required amount + 10" and by doing so prevent the other invading LCUs from getting any top up supply.
 
2.  It isn't really a stacking penalty per se.  Look at the michaelm formula which someone else provided earlier in the thread and you will see that all LCU have an x0.02 multiplied against the stacking result of the hex.  That stacking result may be either negative or positive.  It is therefore an additional variable which is added to the estimated supply calculation.
 
Essentially going over the stacking limit will increase the demand for supply.  Inability to provide the additional supply results in greater difficulties than otherwise in reducing fatigue (which is also boosted but by a reasonably small amount).
 
In very simplified terms picture it as this.  Remember that supply is needed for several things.
 
(A)  You have a large stack of LCU units (called "Armee Nord") at a well stocked base whose SL is higher than the size of Armee Nord.  All units in Armee Nord are in green with their supply.
 
(B)  Armee Nord moves out of base into a hex which has a lower SL than Armee Nord.  Armee Nord remains at this hex for 5 days without being attacked in any manner by the enemy.
 
(C)  Out in the field the estimated supply requirement for Armee Nord are higher than they were when it was inside the base but because of it's close proximity to the well stocked base, it remains in the green as the additional supplies can be provided.
 
(D)  Eventually Armee Nord is attacked both aerially and terrestrially on day 6.  As Armee Nord organic supply is green at the start of day 6 it faces no additional difficulties in this days combat.  However the "supply needs" phase of day 6, which follows the combat now factors in the new additional supply requirement for day 7 and an even larger supply estimation than that which applied in days 1-5 is made.
 
(E)  The day 6 "supply operations" follows the day 6 "supply needs" estimation.  If all the necessary supply is able to be provided to Armee Nord during the day 6 "supply operations" phase, Armee Nord will appear at the start of day 7 in the green and therefore will enter any day 7 combat with no supply malus.  However if the day 6 "supply operations" phase was unable to fully satisfy the estimated supply requirement then Armee Nord starts day 7 in the red and will suffer some supply malus if combat resumes on day 7.
 
 
If the entire point of this thread is to determine whether you should land a large army on a non base hex with a SL lower than the size of the army, your task has been made much harder with the SL limits unless you have the capability to maintain a large offshore merchantman fleet to feed in every day the increased supply estimates.  A similar situation applies with regard to driving overland through low SL hexes except that then you are dependent on the distance from your terrestrial supply depots and how well stocked they are.  With sufficient logistical capability either move is feasible.  But it will be very costly if you must maintain your units in the green every day.
 
Alfred 

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Stacking limits outside of island sizes are not sui generis.  They impact just like everything else referred to in s.3.0, 15.0 and 15.1 of the manual.

There are several factors which are taken into account in estimating how much supply a LCU will need.  The number of "shots" fired in combat will increase the supply determination.  If the hex has a stacking limit the consumption formula provided by michaelm is another discrete variable which is taken into account in the estimate.  The repairing and replacement of devices is another variable.

All the relevant variables for supply consumption and fatigue are taken into account in the "Supply Operations" phase which is detailed in the logistics chapter of the manual.  This is after combat has occurred and any malus which results (for example there being insufficient supply on hand) remains until the next "Supply Operations" phase which follows the next land combat phase.

Alfred

Digressing just a little bit, but the bolded part... even if supply is dropped to the hex by air or amphibious TF? It's been a while since this sort of situation has occurred in my games, but I had thought that dropping supply via plane or ship into a hex that wasn't a friendly base meant that the supply went directly into the organic supply of the unit(s) in the hex.

Now, the underlined part: when you say "all the relevant variables for supply consumption and fatigue", would stacking penalties be taken into account at this point as well?

I'm not Alfred, but my answer might help until he sees the post and answers.

"The underlined part": Yes, this is what I think (99.9% sure) was implied in the earlier mentioned 'developer statements' about when the stacking penalty for supply is applied.

"The bolded part": Supply moved into the (non-friendly base) hex via air drop or amphibious unloading are added directly to the units present. That supply is available for ground combat that day. I'm not 100% sure about it being available for defense against air strikes/naval bombardments.

Notably, once upon a time the code allocated either all or the vast majority of the supply so added to one unit. Michael made changes to the code so that the supply is better spread out between units, either by putting it into units more equitably upon the supply's arrival or by sharing (moving) supply between units, or both.

[witpqs]

Oops - type too slowly! [:D]

[Lokasenna]

This is all useful info. Thanks. I think I've got what I need to know what I should look for.