When are stacking penalties applied to a hex?

[Lokasenna]

I'm researching an issue and am curious if anyone knows the answer to this question. I see hints of the answer in my look at my data points, but want to know if anyone can tell me for sure.

The penalties for overstacking a hex, AFAIK, are:
-Increased supply usage
-Increased disruption
-Increased fatigue
-Decreased morale? Not sure on this one.

But when during each "combat day" (each day of the replay) are these penalties applied or accrued? Is it at the beginning of the turn? Is it before the LCU move phase? After the LCU move phase (and therefore just prior to combat)? Is it after the land combat phase?

Or is it throughout the day (multiple phases)?

[witpqs]

For sure the supply penalty is after land combat.

I am guessing that all of them are after land combat, but not certain of it.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

For sure the supply penalty is after land combat.

I am guessing that all of them are after land combat, but not certain of it.

How sure "for sure"? Are there any threads that discuss it? When I searched for overstacking, I got a ton of airfield-related results but none that seemed to discuss this.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: witpqs

For sure the supply penalty is after land combat.

I am guessing that all of them are after land combat, but not certain of it.

How sure "for sure"? Are there any threads that discuss it? When I searched for overstacking, I got a ton of airfield-related results but none that seemed to discuss this.

Developer(s) stated that it is applied after land combat. Part of the context of the discussion was island invasions - whatever supply you unload (or fly in) that turn is NOT subject to the penalty until after combat. But after combat (if you are greatly over stacked) your supply dump will get a big dent in it!

[crsutton]

Supply is the only penalty as far as I know.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Supply is the only penalty as far as I know.

That was overturned by further developer investigation inside the code. Fatigue and disruption for sure, I forget whether morale also.

[BattleMoose]

Just from my observations, it seems that over stacked enemies take much more casualties from land, air and naval bombardment as well. I always thought the supply penalties were always applied, like each turn?

[Trugrit]

In the Manual Section 8.9 - Page 202
Penalties include:
1 - 5 Fatigue and Disruption to ALL units if base is overstacked.
Supply usage increases for every 10% over the stacking limit; supply usage increases by an additional 20% UNCAPPED for both sides (e.g. if an atoll has a 6,000 man limit and has 12,000 man garrison, supply usage will increase from 100% to 300% i.e. the base supply for 10,000 men plus a special wastage allowance of 200% of normal supply.)

Michaelm provides a formula in post #4
tm.asp?m=3178009

The manual and Michaelm do not say what phase this check is done.
My guess is that the penalty is calculated during the Supply Needs Calculation phase every turn.
This phase occurs after ground movement but before ground combat.

Also, supply needs are calculated twice per turn and I don’t know when the second check is done
But I would guess that the supply penalty will only occur once per turn with each 10% increase
Over the stack limit.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Trugrit


In the Manual Section 8.9 - Page 202
Penalties include:
1 - 5 Fatigue and Disruption to ALL units if base is overstacked.
Supply usage increases for every 10% over the stacking limit; supply usage increases by an additional 20% UNCAPPED for both sides (e.g. if an atoll has a 6,000 man limit and has 12,000 man garrison, supply usage will increase from 100% to 300% i.e. the base supply for 10,000 men plus a special wastage allowance of 200% of normal supply.)

Michaelm provides a formula in post #4
tm.asp?m=3178009

The manual and Michaelm do not say what phase this check is done.
My guess is that the penalty is calculated during the Supply Needs Calculation phase every turn.
This phase occurs after ground movement but before ground combat.

Also, supply needs are calculated twice per turn and I don’t know when the second check is done
But I would guess that the supply penalty will only occur once per turn with each 10% increase
Over the stack limit.

Hrm, that's a good guess, and matches up with what I had thought from looking at some things.

So fatigue and disruption get bumped up by a random of 1 to 5 each turn if overstacked? That's actually not that much of a penalty, at least on the first turn... if indeed it works that way.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: witpqs

For sure the supply penalty is after land combat.

I am guessing that all of them are after land combat, but not certain of it.

How sure "for sure"? Are there any threads that discuss it? When I searched for overstacking, I got a ton of airfield-related results but none that seemed to discuss this.

Developer(s) stated that it is applied after land combat. Part of the context of the discussion was island invasions - whatever supply you unload (or fly in) that turn is NOT subject to the penalty until after combat. But after combat (if you are greatly over stacked) your supply dump will get a big dent in it!

I'm going to try to find this thread, but any chance you remember when it happened/who posted?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna




How sure "for sure"? Are there any threads that discuss it? When I searched for overstacking, I got a ton of airfield-related results but none that seemed to discuss this.

Developer(s) stated that it is applied after land combat. Part of the context of the discussion was island invasions - whatever supply you unload (or fly in) that turn is NOT subject to the penalty until after combat. But after combat (if you are greatly over stacked) your supply dump will get a big dent in it!

I'm going to try to find this thread, but any chance you remember when it happened/who posted?

The first time goes waaaaaaaay back when I ran some tests on over stacking on atolls/islands several years ago (I think that was before the every-hex stacking limit option was introduced). JWE for sure, maybe others. Very definite about the supply penalty being after ground combat. Otherwise the model for atoll & small island invasions would not have worked as well right from 2004 with WITP introduction.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: witpqs



Developer(s) stated that it is applied after land combat. Part of the context of the discussion was island invasions - whatever supply you unload (or fly in) that turn is NOT subject to the penalty until after combat. But after combat (if you are greatly over stacked) your supply dump will get a big dent in it!

I'm going to try to find this thread, but any chance you remember when it happened/who posted?

The first time goes waaaaaaaay back when I ran some tests on over stacking on atolls/islands several years ago (I think that was before the every-hex stacking limit option was introduced). JWE for sure, maybe others. Very definite about the supply penalty being after ground combat. Otherwise the model for atoll & small island invasions would not have worked as well right from 2004 with WITP introduction.

Makes sense about supply, if in fact it is working that way (which seems to be the intent). I'm really trying to figure out when the disruption/fatigue penalties are applied, so will try to find those posts to see if they say anything. It's going to be an afternoon of Google, I think.

[Capt Hornblower]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: witpqs



Developer(s) stated that it is applied after land combat. Part of the context of the discussion was island invasions - whatever supply you unload (or fly in) that turn is NOT subject to the penalty until after combat. But after combat (if you are greatly over stacked) your supply dump will get a big dent in it!

I'm going to try to find this thread, but any chance you remember when it happened/who posted?

The first time goes waaaaaaaay back when I ran some tests on over stacking on atolls/islands several years ago (I think that was before the every-hex stacking limit option was introduced). JWE for sure, maybe others. Very definite about the supply penalty being after ground combat. Otherwise the model for atoll & small island invasions would not have worked as well right from 2004 with WITP introduction.

I remind all that the institution of a stacking limit for all hexes applies only to beta implementations and DOES NOT apply to stock (with OFFICIAL updates) installations of WITP:AE.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Capt Hornblower

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna




I'm going to try to find this thread, but any chance you remember when it happened/who posted?

The first time goes waaaaaaaay back when I ran some tests on over stacking on atolls/islands several years ago (I think that was before the every-hex stacking limit option was introduced). JWE for sure, maybe others. Very definite about the supply penalty being after ground combat. Otherwise the model for atoll & small island invasions would not have worked as well right from 2004 with WITP introduction.

I remind all that the institution of a stacking limit for all hexes applies only to beta implementations and DOES NOT apply to stock (with OFFICIAL updates) installations of WITP:AE.

It is not Beta, it is included in the official release. It is optional. You must use the appropriate set of pwhex (aka map data) files. There is a set of such pwhex files for the stock map.

[Lokasenna]

Even in stock, there are hexes that have stacking limits. Namely, islands.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Even in stock, there are hexes that have stacking limits. Namely, islands.

Yes, although the point I am trying to make is that the code which honors stacking limits in any hex is in the official release, not just the Beta. But you do need to use a pwhex file set that has those stacking limits specified, hence it is still optional. The atolls and islands that you point out always have (the default) stacking limits based upon their size when not using the optional stacking limits (which will override the defaults).

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Even in stock, there are hexes that have stacking limits. Namely, islands.

Yes, although the point I am trying to make is that the code which honors stacking limits in any hex is in the official release, not just the Beta. But you do need to use a pwhex file set that has those stacking limits specified, hence it is still optional. The atolls and islands that you point out always have (the default) stacking limits based upon their size when not using the optional stacking limits (which will override the defaults).

I just found JWE's comment about Michael inserting a switch to make the island size be given priority over PWHEX data stacking limits. Still haven't found a comment on when exactly they are applied, but I have found some good info so far.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Supply is the only penalty as far as I know.

That was overturned by further developer investigation inside the code. Fatigue and disruption for sure, I forget whether morale also.

Morale falls if fatigue is not addressed.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Even in stock, there are hexes that have stacking limits. Namely, islands.

Yes, although the point I am trying to make is that the code which honors stacking limits in any hex is in the official release, not just the Beta. But you do need to use a pwhex file set that has those stacking limits specified, hence it is still optional. The atolls and islands that you point out always have (the default) stacking limits based upon their size when not using the optional stacking limits (which will override the defaults).

I just found JWE's comment about Michael inserting a switch to make the island size be given priority over PWHEX data stacking limits. Still haven't found a comment on when exactly they are applied, but I have found some good info so far.

My current 1x1 PBM (with the AAR) started in late November/early December 2011 and we used stacking limits with the then latest Beta release from the beginning. I am pretty sure that the next official release after that date had the stacking limits for every hex code included (checks the pwhex file set to see if it is there, uses it if so, uses the old method if not).

[Alfred]

Stacking limits outside of island sizes are not sui generis.  They impact just like everything else referred to in s.3.0, 15.0 and 15.1 of the manual.
 
There are several factors which are taken into account in estimating how much supply a LCU will need.  The number of "shots" fired in combat will increase the supply determination.  If the hex has a stacking limit the consumption formula provided by michaelm is another discrete variable which is taken into account in the estimate.  The repairing and replacement of devices is another variable.
 
All the relevant variables for supply consumption and fatigue are taken into account in the "Supply Operations" phase which is detailed in the logistics chapter of the manual.  This is after combat has occurred and any malus which results (for example there being insufficient supply on hand) remains until the next "Supply Operations" phase which follows the next land combat phase.
 
Alfred