Is this WAD?

[Harrybanana]

I will add that the German FBs and TACBs (I used both here) appear to be way more effective at inflicting casualties than the Allied FBs; often causing around 1.5 casualties for every aircraft. If I can cause .75 casualties per Allied Aircraft I think this is doing very well. There may be good reasons for this, just saying.

[Helpless]

Screenshot doesn't tell much, but I see nothing which would make me worry. Need to look at the save to provide any feedback.

Theoretically all it factors mentioned by Joel are true. I didn't do much on the the unit bombing as it was initially coded by Gary. The only change I did recently was related to the HQ bombing, which should have nothing to do with the discussed topic.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: Helpless

Screenshot doesn't tell much, but I see nothing which would make me worry. Need to look at the save to provide any feedback.

Theoretically all it factors mentioned by Joel are true. I didn't do much on the the unit bombing as it was initially coded by Gary. The only change I did recently was related to the HQ bombing, which should have nothing to do with the discussed topic.

Well, the screenshot tells you that a 2500 man regiment of mountain troops alone in a mountain hex fortified to level 3 were completely destroyed by 1800 sorties of German FBs and TACBs flying in the rain. Admittedly it doesn't tell you how this was done without the save, but I submit that the fact it did happen should be cause for worry.

Do you need the save from before such an attack, or is after good enough? If the former I'm not sure how I can do that as this is a server game. If the latter than the next time I see such an attack I will let you know before advancing the turn.

[Helpless]

the screenshot tells you that a 2500 man regiment of mountain troops alone in a mountain hex fortified to level 3 were completely destroyed

I don't see it.

Do you need the save from before such an attack, or is after good enough?

In such a case I need a save before the attack.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: Helpless

the screenshot tells you that a 2500 man regiment of mountain troops alone in a mountain hex fortified to level 3 were completely destroyed

I don't see it.

Well as usual I am obviously missing something. How do you not see that each attack of 340 to 380 aircraft was inflicting 400 to 644 casualties per attack and that the enemy unit was wiped out by this? That is why the final attacks didn't do any damage, because there were no men left in the enemy unit. Does anyone else not see this? What am I missing?

Do you need the save from before such an attack, or is after good enough?

In such a case I need a save before the attack.

So I guess that means I need to set up a bombing attack on an enemy unit and then (without even knowing the results of my attack) stop my turn and email you to run my air execution to see what happens. I'll try and set up such an attack though now, of course, my opponent is forewarned.

[LiquidSky]

I've noticed something similar. It is better to stack three divisions in a hex for defence against air attack then to spread out. For one you get more flak. The other is it seems that air attack will do 'x' number of damage against a unit. And a bigger (or more) unit will absorb that damage better.

I've also noticed that for small units, they get overwhelmed in combat easier. I just assumed it was working as designed....but it does get me that a mountain regiment, in a mountain will show like a 50 CV, and I attack it with 3 divisions totaling 15 cv, and kick it off them mountain easily.

But then, that is like 9-1 odds (men) with a lot of guns on the side of the 3 divisions.

[Helpless]

That is why the final attacks didn't do any damage, because there were no men left in the enemy unit. Does anyone else not see this? What am I missing?

Depleted units do not fight. Depletion doesn't mean no one left. Lots of damaged/disabled elements after corp size bombing campaign against single regiment can do this on any terrain (especially if there is no knowledge on initial state of the unit under attack).

Can only guess without a save, but again, I see nothing wrong in the provided results. Honestly I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to show or prove, but I can look into the save to see if there is something wrong for possible tuning.

So I guess that means I need to set up a bombing attack on an enemy unit and then (without even knowing the results of my attack) stop my turn and email you to run my air execution to see what happens. I'll try and set up such an attack though now, of course, my opponent is forewarned.

PBEM++ system allows us to retrieve two saves - current and previous (backup). So if you save and then just execute air directives and quit after auto-save (do not make any additional saves), we should be able to access backup file, which should be a pre-air execution save.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: Helpless

That is why the final attacks didn't do any damage, because there were no men left in the enemy unit. Does anyone else not see this? What am I missing?

Depleted units do not fight. Depletion doesn't mean no one left. Lots of damaged/disabled elements after corp size bombing campaign against single regiment can do this on any terrain (especially if there is no knowledge on initial state of the unit under attack).

Can only guess without a save, but again, I see nothing wrong in the provided results. Honestly I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to show or prove, but I can look into the save to see if there is something wrong for possible tuning.

So I guess that means I need to set up a bombing attack on an enemy unit and then (without even knowing the results of my attack) stop my turn and email you to run my air execution to see what happens. I'll try and set up such an attack though now, of course, my opponent is forewarned.

PBEM++ system allows us to retrieve two saves - current and previous (backup). So if you save and then just execute air directives and quit after auto-save (do not make any additional saves), we should be able to access backup file, which should be a pre-air execution save.

Well in this case I am pretty sure there was no one left because I believe the regiment in question only has a maximum strength of about 2500 and that is how many casualties I inflicted. What I am trying to show is that it is possible to inflict an impossibly high number of causalities on a fortified unit in a mountain hex in poor weather. IMHO this is a flaw in the game program. I am not saying that the game is not WAD; what I am saying is that the design is wrong.

But I am probably being too critical. This is such an excellent game that whenever I see something that isn't quite right it annoys me.

Oh yeah, I tried an almost identical attack on another mountain regiment in Italy and only inflicted about 600 casulties. So maybe this was just a fluke. I don't know.

[Helpless]

Well in this case I am pretty sure there was no one left because I believe the regiment in question only has a maximum strength of about 2500 and that is how many casualties I inflicted

How do you get the 2500 number? How do you know that all of them were pure kills, i.e. ready elements destroyed?

What I am trying to show is that it is possible to inflict an impossibly high number of causalities on a fortified unit in a mountain hex in poor weather. IMHO this is a flaw in the game program. I am not saying that the game is not WAD; what I am saying is that the design is wrong.

I don't see "impossibly high number", nor I see "bad" weather (rain is just some probability of clouds). With low alt bombing it has diminishing effect. Forts and mountain is indeed something which should provide some protection in such a case, which is seen by very low interdiction numbers. On opposite side I see huge amount of planes allocated against well reconed front line unit. It would be good to look at the saves in such a case.

Oh yeah, I tried an almost identical attack on another mountain regiment in Italy and only inflicted about 600 casulties. So maybe this was just a fluke. I don't know.

Or something else which might be not so obvious. In any case, rolls can shift results.

[LiquidSky]

That's a good point. The Losses it shows on bombing is actually the Killed + Disabled. You would have to look at the unit to see how much of it was actually killed. That is also why the apparently completely empty unit took casualties when you attacked it...some of the disabled guys were killed when it routed away.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: Helpless

Well in this case I am pretty sure there was no one left because I believe the regiment in question only has a maximum strength of about 2500 and that is how many casualties I inflicted

How do you get the 2500 number? How do you know that all of them were pure kills, i.e. ready elements destroyed?

What I am trying to show is that it is possible to inflict an impossibly high number of causalities on a fortified unit in a mountain hex in poor weather. IMHO this is a flaw in the game program. I am not saying that the game is not WAD; what I am saying is that the design is wrong.

I don't see "impossibly high number", nor I see "bad" weather (rain is just some probability of clouds). With low alt bombing it has diminishing effect. Forts and mountain is indeed something which should provide some protection in such a case, which is seen by very low interdiction numbers. On opposite side I see huge amount of planes allocated against well reconed front line unit. It would be good to look at the saves in such a case.

Oh yeah, I tried an almost identical attack on another mountain regiment in Italy and only inflicted about 600 casulties. So maybe this was just a fluke. I don't know.

Or something else which might be not so obvious. In any case, rolls can shift results.

I didn't say the 2500 were kills, I said they were casualties. I got the number by adding 483+507+571+644+375=2580. I am not sure how accurate the Air Directive Summary and Battle Reports are; but I note that when I play both sides I get the same numbers. In other words even the German Reports would show 2580 Casualties.

I didn't say bad weather I said poor weather; which is the definition the game itself gives for rain. I didn't air recon the hex at all. I think pretty much all front line units obtain a detection level of 10 against adjacent enemy units after one turn. I didn't use a huge amount of planes, less than 400. But because they were close to the Front they were each able to fly 2 sorties per day. In any event, all the casualties were caused by the first the first 1800 sorties; so I could have got the same result with 150 aircraft flying 2 missions per day. I guess we will have to agree to disagree as to whether or not such a result was historically possible. This is not that big a deal, just something I personally think needs to be addressed in future versions of the game.

Helpless, despite our disagreements from time to time I just want to say how impressed I am with the way you promptly respond to almost every post. I know you probably have more important things to do and it is appreciated. You are obviously very dedicated to your job. You and everyone else involved should be very proud of this game, it is by far the best WW2 game I have ever played, computer or board.