Is this WAD?

[Harrybanana]

I have been experimenting with using the different types of aircraft (FBs, 2E and 4E) on "Unit" bombings missions. First I will apologize to Helpless as I now believe he is right, using 2Es and 4Es on these missions is not optimizing their use. In most cases the FBs can do a better job of "Unit" bombing if used correctly. I just had not figured out, until now, how to use them correctly. I always assumed it was best to have the FBs attack from a relatively low altitude. But Helpless tipped me off when he pointed out that FBs can dive which increases their accuracy. So I experimented with attacking with the FBs from different altitudes. Below are the results of 2 identical attacks except that one is from 5000' and the other is from 30,000'. As you can see the attack from 30,000' caused about 25% more casualties. But, even more importantly, it lost 80% fewer aircraft to flak and also suffered far fewer damaged aircraft (98 damaged FBs at 5000' compared to only 30 at 30,000'). Accordingly, whereas 2/3rds of the FBs attacking from 5000' ended with morale of less than 55, none of the aircraft attacking from 30,000' were below this threshold.

Note that there were only 3 mixed flak units in the 3 units I bombed (one per unit). If these German units had more flak than I suspect the differences in attacking from different altitudes would be even more pronounced. Also note that attacks from high altitude are more prone to be intercepted by enemy fighters. So if there are a lot of German fighters in the area and the units being bombed do not have very much flak, you might still be better off bombing from a low altitude. I like this as it may enourage the German player to stop pulling every single fighter back to Germany to be used against the SBs.

Of course, using your FBs for unit bombing means they can't be used for interdiction. But the good news is that my tests indicate that these high altitude attacks work just as well for interdiction. So no more losing 100s of FBs every turn to flak.

I have tried these high altitude FB attacks the last couple turns in my game with Liquid Sky with good results. But doing so has now made me feel guilty. Is this WAD or am I taking advantage (ie exploiting) a loop hole in the game design? I can see why attacking at high speed (ie diving) from high altitude would reduce flak losses. But at 30,000' would the FBs even be able to see targets in the first place? And wouldn't they have to dive into the flak so they would at least take a few more losses and damage? Also (and more importantly) what if QBall reads this in the game we are playing where I am the Germans and starts using this tactic on me? And finally, I couldn't have been the first player to figure this out am I?

[Joel Billings]

I know in the case of dive bombers and FBs that glide bomb that the idea is they travel to/from the target at higher altitudes and bomb at lower altitude. This allows them to avoid low level flak for much of their mission. This is WAD. Now I can see an argument that for interdiction (and even for some unit bombing) that they might be loitering at lower altitudes looking for targets and that this would make them more susceptible to flak for a greater part of the mission than just the final dive to hit a target (as in an SBD diving on a carrier). But I don't know all the details of the system so Pavel or Gary would have to speak to exactly how things are done and whether it makes sense for all cases. For now I would assume it is WAD. As for whether others have figured this out, I'm interested in the answer to this as well.

[Helpless]

FB starts glide bombing when approach below 5k, so in both cases they should dive. The difference is that in these two examples flights will get different flak fire. The one approaching at 30K will get heavy/med flak fire (at high alt) + medium/small flak when they dive. 5k flight will get medium/small flak fire twice. Flak efficiency is greatly reduced when plane is diving. So depending on flak composition at the target and on the approach path results can be very different. I guess in the example above unit flak value is mostly medium/small, so lower approach is more dangerous, but can be beneficial in some situations.

[Harrybanana]

Thank you Helpless. So I guess my tactic isn't as good as I thought, it depends on the type of flak units. But when you say FB starts glide bombing when approach below 5000', don't you mean above 5000'.

[Helpless]

But when you say FB starts glide bombing when approach below 5000', don't you mean above 5000'.

Just as said FBs start dive bombing at 5000 and above, assuming that flying lower doesn't bring them into position to have efficient dive bomb in terms of all accuracy and flak protection benefits. Below 5K they make glide bombing attacks.

[LiquidSky]

When I set up Flak in my units, I assign 1 HVY Flak, 1 Mixed flak and 1 Light flak.

When the front is static(ish) I will put flak in towns/airfields right beside the front. If it is a city that cant really be taken I will use a regiment of flak.

I will put RR flak scattered around a bit farther back for interdiction.

[Q-Ball]

I like the Mixed Flak units attached to important units (i.e. Panzer, PzG, and Para) because they're basically a Light Flak and Heavy Flak unit combined.

Good test though, because it shows why both types are important

It could be the difference between the tests was purely the amount of flak resistance. In which case the other takeaway from this is the importance, for the Germans in particular, of embedding flak units with your combat units. You have enough flak to basically hand a unit out to every division, with important ones getting 2 or 3.

[Harrybanana]

My FB bombing attacks on LS this last turn were not nearly as effective. Probably because he was using the measures he describes above. I was still able to cause a fair number of casualties, but my losses and damaged aircraft were much higher. So this isn't the "magic pill" I thought. Which is good.

So don't bother trying it on me QBall, because it is a waste really:).

[LiquidSky]

Also my units are getting more entrenched which i assume lessens the bombing effects

[cmunson]

Good thread. Lots of helpful information here.

[soeren01]

I did some tests, comparing 2E (Marauder) and 4E (B-17). My tests where aimed to compare the damage per bomb ratio of the planes. While flying identical missions, I have seen no significant differences in Mission results.

Example: Ground Attack:Unit
50 B-17 carrying 8 500lbs bombs each (total of 400 bombs)inflicted an average of 47 casualities.
50 Marauders carrying 8 500lbs bombs each (total of 400 bombs)inflicted an average of 50 casualities.

Example: Ground Attack:Interdiction Clear hex
50 B-17 carrying 8 500lbs bombs each (total of 400 bombs) inflicted an average interdiction of 80.
50 Marauders carrying 8 500lbs bombs each (total of 400 bombs) inflicted an average interdiction of 78.

This leads my to the conclusion, that for ground attacks using level bombers only the number of bombs is relevant.

If there are advantages/disadvantages they are somwhere else, for example:
A Marauder is much cheaper than an B-17 but can carry the same bombload for ground attacks.
A shot down Marauder results in fewer manpower losses.
A Marauder has no disadvantage operating from level 2 airfields.

[Ostwindflak]

Will 4E bombers be more effective at causing disruption to dug in units more so than 2E bombers or FBs?

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: soeren01

I did some tests, comparing 2E (Marauder) and 4E (B-17). My tests where aimed to compare the damage per bomb ratio of the planes. While flying identical missions, I have seen no significant differences in Mission results.

Example: Ground Attack:Unit
50 B-17 carrying 8 500lbs bombs each (total of 400 bombs)inflicted an average of 47 casualities.
50 Marauders carrying 8 500lbs bombs each (total of 400 bombs)inflicted an average of 50 casualities.

Example: Ground Attack:Interdiction Clear hex
50 B-17 carrying 8 500lbs bombs each (total of 400 bombs) inflicted an average interdiction of 80.
50 Marauders carrying 8 500lbs bombs each (total of 400 bombs) inflicted an average interdiction of 78.

This leads my to the conclusion, that for ground attacks using level bombers only the number of bombs is relevant.

If there are advantages/disadvantages they are somwhere else, for example:
A Marauder is much cheaper than an B-17 but can carry the same bombload for ground attacks.
A shot down Marauder results in fewer manpower losses.
A Marauder has no disadvantage operating from level 2 airfields.

Sorenson, my tests yielded much different results. Namely that the 2Es didn't even come close to matching the 4Es in terms of casualties caused even taking into account the different bomb loads. Would you be willing to post a save of your tests prior to air execution so I can compare to mine to see what the differences are.

[soeren01]

used hex 91,183 for the interdiction test.
used hex 89,182 for the unit attack test.

Please bear in mind, that this just compares identical attacks with different plane types (2E and 4E). I made no effort to optimize the attacks.
The data from my tests is from attacks at 10.000 feet.
Attacks from other altitudes show the same trend, if the number of bombs dropped is equal,the results are comparable.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

Also my units are getting more entrenched which i assume lessens the bombing effects

I would like to think that is the case LS as it makes sense. But I am not sure that entrenchment, terrain or even weather have much if any effect on "Unit" bombing. The other thing I think should have an effect is the number of enemy units in the bombed hex. One would think that, all other things being equal, 3 full divisions in a hex would present more targets (albeit also more flak) and therefore would take more losses than a single regiment. But in my most recent turn of my game with QBall I "Unit" Bombed a lone regiment, in a mountain hex, in rain that was fortified to level 3 and caused 2500 casualties thus basically destroying the unit with air power alone. Oh yeah, I bombed from an altitude of 5000' thus avoiding interception by the Allied fighters, I wonder who I learned that from? Now, of course, the regiment did not have a flak unit assigned; but still that seems a little ridiculous to me. For one thing if I had attacked at 5000" I would have slammed into the 10,000'+ mountains. But even putting that aside that regiment would have been well camouflaged and dug in. It might have been difficult to hide 30,000 men, but not 2500.

But, as usual, I probably have it all wrong. Perhaps Helpless or one of the developers can comment on how, if at all, weather, terrain, entrenchment and enemy unit size and numbers affect "Unit" Bombing?

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: soeren01

used hex 91,183 for the interdiction test.
used hex 89,182 for the unit attack test.

Please bear in mind, that this just compares identical attacks with different plane types (2E and 4E). I made no effort to optimize the attacks.
The data from my tests is from attacks at 10.000 feet.
Attacks from other altitudes show the same trend, if the number of bombs dropped is equal,the results are comparable.

Okay, now someone is going to have to explain to me how I convert the Attachment into a WitW sav. file. When I click on the attachment I get a txt file. Sorry I am not a techie.

[soeren01]

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

ORIGINAL: soeren01

used hex 91,183 for the interdiction test.
used hex 89,182 for the unit attack test.

Please bear in mind, that this just compares identical attacks with different plane types (2E and 4E). I made no effort to optimize the attacks.
The data from my tests is from attacks at 10.000 feet.
Attacks from other altitudes show the same trend, if the number of bombs dropped is equal,the results are comparable.

Okay, now someone is going to have to explain to me how I convert the Attachment into a WitW sav. file. When I click on the attachment I get a txt file. Sorry I am not a techie.

Just rename the file into testsetup.sav und you should have a valid save.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: soeren01

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

ORIGINAL: soeren01

used hex 91,183 for the interdiction test.
used hex 89,182 for the unit attack test.

Please bear in mind, that this just compares identical attacks with different plane types (2E and 4E). I made no effort to optimize the attacks.
The data from my tests is from attacks at 10.000 feet.
Attacks from other altitudes show the same trend, if the number of bombs dropped is equal,the results are comparable.

Okay, now someone is going to have to explain to me how I convert the Attachment into a WitW sav. file. When I click on the attachment I get a txt file. Sorry I am not a techie.

Just rename the file into testsetup.sav und you should have a valid save.

I tried that, but with Windows 10 you can rename a file, but not the extension. So Windows (and the WitW program) both think it is a text file. I assume there is some way to override Windows 10 so I can rename the extension, but again I am no techie and don't know how.

[Joel Billings]

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

Perhaps Helpless or one of the developers can comment on how, if at all, weather, terrain, entrenchment and enemy unit size and numbers affect "Unit" Bombing?

Until Pavel (Helpless) has time to answer in detail, I can pass on Gary's memory of what impacts unit bombing. First, a caveat that things may have changed as Pavel was the last to work on unit bombing and it's been quite a while since Gary has worked on it. Gary is pretty sure entrenchment levels reduce casualties. He's not sure about terrain (it's very possible it does as well, he just can't remember). Weather has many impacts on air missions, but he's pretty sure one of them is on the chance to hit the target. He thinks the number of targets in the hex does impact the chance of hitting something (the more to hit, the greater chance something will be hit). One other factor that doesn't often get mentioned but is important as well is the detection level of the target.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

Perhaps Helpless or one of the developers can comment on how, if at all, weather, terrain, entrenchment and enemy unit size and numbers affect "Unit" Bombing?

Until Pavel (Helpless) has time to answer in detail, I can pass on Gary's memory of what impacts unit bombing. First, a caveat that things may have changed as Pavel was the last to work on unit bombing and it's been quite a while since Gary has worked on it. Gary is pretty sure entrenchment levels reduce casualties. He's not sure about terrain (it's very possible it does as well, he just can't remember). Weather has many impacts on air missions, but he's pretty sure one of them is on the chance to hit the target. He thinks the number of targets in the hex does impact the chance of hitting something (the more to hit, the greater chance something will be hit). One other factor that doesn't often get mentioned but is important as well is the detection level of the target.

Well the Mountain regiment was adjacent to my units so I suppose the detection level might have been high; but I didn't recon the hex at all. All I know is that this unit's entrenchment, mountain hex, rain and small unit size didn't seem to help it too much. Below are my bombing mission results and the follow up attack. As you can see the air attacks alone appear to have destroyed the unit, or at least killed all the manpower in it.