Another newb observation : Gibraltar

[Joseignacio]

Finally it's all always about modifiers, the matter is whether you get them by a ratio or by other means.

[Centuur]

It's the rules...

RAW:

Resolve the combat normally. Any combat result (other than ‘-’)
destroys the notional defending unit. It doesn’t count as a loss towards
satisfying the combat result.


The CW will usually try to put in two good units and a division in Gib when it becomes clear it will come under attack. Any invasion of the Rock without an attack on Spain can only succeed if the Axis have taken Morocco, made it into an airfield for the 4+ range bombers and are able to disorganise the defenders and put them out of supply too. That can be done, since the Rock will defend with 10 factors if a white print unit and two addditional units in it. This means that all German PARA's are needed to attack the Rock from the air and additional shore bombardment makes the attack a +10.

A good CW player will put a unit into French North Africa, to prevent the Axis from conquering Algiers and/or Morocco. If the area becomes Vichy, that unit is usually teleported to the Rock itself and the Axis are faced with the question to collapse Vichy or not and start over at the Algerian/Tunisian border.

So Germany almost always have to go through Spain...

[Joseignacio]

Wouldn't like to have to face you in a game, haha [&o]

And thanks for the quote, I could have tried to check it myself but I never have the rules when I remember about that. I was swindled. [:@]

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Wouldn't like to have to face you in a game, haha [&o]

And thanks for the quote, I could have tried to check it myself but I never have the rules when I remember about that. I was swindled. [:@]

José, I lack training, I'm afraid. I tend to make mistakes which in the past I wouldn't have done. These kind of things happen if you don't play a game for over almost 20 years against human opponents...

[paulderynck]

Another issue with the notional is that it gives the attacker a +1 which equates to half an odds column more in 2D10. It adds 2 defense which does not usually reduce an attacker by half an odds column. So its possible a notional will give the attacker a better chance to take the hex. [X(]

[Jagdtiger14]

That can be done, since the Rock will defend with 10 factors if a white print unit and two addditional units in it. This means that all German PARA's are needed to attack the Rock from the air and additional shore bombardment makes the attack a +10. So Germany almost always have to go through Spain...

Well, there are other methods to take Gibraltar[;)]

[jboldt007]

Son of gun ! Ok now I know a bit more about notionals (the great thing about MWIF is that you will learn the correct rules - usually the hard way- there is no mercy).

I just wish the game would warn you if you are about to overstack oil .... [:(]

[AlbertN]

Indeed all the times I've taken Gibraltar has been through Spain.
The Marocco tactic is hardly affordable and is doable only against novice players in the end - since CW can enter France minors with no HQ (I find that personally most odd but that's how the rules are frankly).

[Courtenay]

The original poster said that delaying Barbarossa was a mistake. Not necessarily. There are, to my mind, two viable German strategies: '41 Barbarossa and Close the Med, an all out attack designed to take Gibraltar and Suez, with Barbarossa delayed until '42.

[jboldt007]

Yeah... as Axis I tried to do something along the line of Option 2 .... but failed miserably so far ...

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

The original poster said that delaying Barbarossa was a mistake. Not necessarily. There are, to my mind, two viable German strategies: '41 Barbarossa and Close the Med, an all out attack designed to take Gibraltar and Suez, with Barbarossa delayed until '42.

Barb 42 is most of the times destined to be a failure. The URRS player is by then too strong to be destroyed, so it can simply hold the lines while he and the others outproduce the axis. Axis strategy consists usually in the Barb 42, whether it's intended or not, in creating a buffer zone in Ukraine to Leningrad for the URSS counterattack...

It's better to have a sitzkrieg in these cases, although an offensive dedicated to a buffer zone anyway can be considered a form of sitzkrieg.

[AlbertN]

Main problem of non Spain strategies is that they're a one shot marvel.
You launch paras only to take Gibraltar? If it goes sour - you lose all of your Paras, and no matter how much you produce - they'll take 4 turns to be built again and 1 more turn to be brought in position in most cases.
You need to be able to keep pushing for it (or better trying!) so you pratically need Spain. That's how I see it.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Cohen

Main problem of non Spain strategies is that they're a one shot marvel.
You launch paras only to take Gibraltar? If it goes sour - you lose all of your Paras, and no matter how much you produce - they'll take 4 turns to be built again and 1 more turn to be brought in position in most cases.
You need to be able to keep pushing for it (or better trying!) so you pratically need Spain. That's how I see it.

+1

[Joseignacio]

Most experienced players would agree, but, if you get lucky and can get it even if it takes, say, 2 attempts without declaring war to Spain, you can align Spain and the reward is huge:

- You don't need to lose units fighting Spain
- You increase your units by the Spanish army, good quality for a minor.
- You don't give a roll to the USA for entering the war
- The UK (or USA too) don't get the chance to set a beachhead supported by the Spanish, they would need to invade against the spanish garrisons and notionals, and railed GE units.
- You get all of the spanish factories, not only the red? blue? one/s
- You don't have partisans in Spain.
- ...

So why not trying to invade with some lousy divs in the meantime?

[AlbertN]

Because divisions in the tabletop game are counted, not infinite like in MWiF if playing with an optional.
Not only, it's 3 Combat Factor +3 of Airplanes, that's 6 (9 if you add shore bombing, but it's a -1 because you have Germans and Italians involved).
That would be defended by like 30ish factors of CW units? That's like a -4, let's assume all flipped, +5. Hmm, attacking at +1 to get through you need to roll 19 or 20.

Without Spain you rely on Marocco for supply AND that means it has to cross a West Med where the RN can go full force. Best of luck keeping the Regia Marina alive and the supply line over; for Gibraltar AND for Suez at once.

Sure you can be -LUCKY- but would you plan around to luck out a die roll your future? I'd not do that there but that is my opinion.

[Dabrion]

Going into Spain+Portugal via DoW costs 1.5 USE chits, a steep price! Not following through and taking Gib+denying the Torch beaches (the ultimate reward of the whole operation) was the worst possible decision in that situation. Might have been better to throw the Marines at Gib multiple times instead

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Cohen

Because divisions in the tabletop game are counted, not infinite like in MWiF if playing with an optional.
Not only, it's 3 Combat Factor +3 of Airplanes, that's 6 (9 if you add shore bombing, but it's a -1 because you have Germans and Italians involved).
That would be defended by like 30ish factors of CW units? That's like a -4, let's assume all flipped, +5. Hmm, attacking at +1 to get through you need to roll 19 or 20.

Without Spain you rely on Marocco for supply AND that means it has to cross a West Med where the RN can go full force. Best of luck keeping the Regia Marina alive and the supply line over; for Gibraltar AND for Suez at once.

Sure you can be -LUCKY- but would you plan around to luck out a die roll your future? I'd not do that there but that is my opinion.

I recall having attacked with 3 div as an Italian, one of them being marines. Of course, with such few preparation and at the beginning of the game, when the CW player is busy in France and/or Egypt, Malta and Gibraltar are weakly defended.

If you get lucky isolating the brits (in other case you wait) specially at the beginning of a turn, when most ships RTB, I do not think it's easy to get air support, but you could double with ships while he cannot. This may give you a 1:1 ratio depending on what is defending there (at the beginnig of the game). That's a +2.

If you are lucky, but no so terriby lucky, you only need to roll a 13 and you can destroy the one corps defending. Of course a 17 would let you kill two, but that would be Real luck. With an 18 you kill everybody, even 3 units.

Of course later the CW can have more units but then the IT will have MAR, and they can be doubled as well, there are longer range planes that could try to disorganize some of the units at Gibraltar, etc..

This all is without the IT building an AMPH and sending Balbo which gives you a +2, letting the previous rolls be 11, 15 and 16. Not so bad. And this modifier does not depend on how many units are at Gibraltar. Of course by then the brit could have more units.

[Dabrion]

Trying to take Gib on a series +7ish crap shots is quite common. There are 14pts usually with +5 for flips. The usual Para/Marine stack is 10pts before shore and air. +3ish from odds, +5 flips, -1coop = +7 (+x for Paras/HQ). That has roughly a 1/3 chance of success. Start wit hthe Paras, send in the Marines after them and then Balbo + X. Chance to roll 14 or better on three consecutive rolls is ~62%, you invest 15bp per attack round (half your turn production roughly) plus maybe a cheap naval Ochit out of Brest to set you up. All well invested, considering what a game changer it is..

[Joseignacio]

What would you use the naval o-chit for? I would use it for rerolls, but that's another ruleset, after th RAW 7.xx series.

And all this you can do only if ypu have bases in Algeria, right? I cannot see another departure for the paras, except invading Portugal, which I would not advise.

I am asking this because I never used PARAs there and few times bombers, so I didn't need close bases, and my scarce attacks were wilder, of course, but my opponent was way more relazed as well because I didn't have these units to attack and Gib used to have only 1 or 2 units.

[Dabrion]

Yes needs bases in Algeria at the minimum. I would argue for Morocco even, as the Ju-87D can reach Gib from Rabat and you get FW-190s into the Cape, it is also +1 Spanish resource as small hedge against a total failure of the op. So early DoW IT>FR and a race for Rabat is recommended (usually doable , esp. if playing railway movement, CW can drop units into Algiers and Rabat tho ..).

The naval OChit for the rerolls yes. Is that not part of MWiF? That was in RAW7 as part of the 2008 Annual afaik. It is not really needed if you can project enough air into the Cape.