Another newb observation : Gibraltar

[jboldt007]

So in current (first) GW game France surrenders (no Vichy) and Axis decide to go after all them purdy red factories and resources on the Iberian peninsula. The Thin Pink Line collapses and Spain is conquered (followed by Portugal). But at that point the western allies can enter Spain via Gibraltar and with Morocco aligned, send in CW and US troops into North Africa which can be ferried into Gibraltar as needed/ allowed. Plus by this point long range CW bombers, Mosquitos, and even P-51's if available can air base into NA.

Of course, the Axis may, or should, be making a decisive effort to take Gibraltar- but its tough. Gibraltar can only be approached on land by a narrow ismuth (a hex side), which means the combat will be a mano -a-mano affair. The Axis will have to bring in paradrops and an invasion force probably. Axis air units are probably going to be second rate depending on what is needed in other sectors. But perhaps most importantly, the Axis units are a long way from home. Suddenly some tough Spanish and French partisans appear and block supply. So it would seem the Achilles heel of an Iberian campaign is that the western allies can get a convenient beachhead into Fortress Europa.

[Courtenay]

I'm confused. France is conquered, and the US is already in the war? If this is case, and I were the Axis, I would wimp out, and present the Allies with my resignation.

[AlbertN]

I admit that seems somehow surreal, that the US are already at war by the time Axis attacks Spain unless that is post-Barbarossa. And if so I wonder with which forces the Germans are trying to penetrate in depth in Russia.

[jboldt007]

I should say this didn't all happen at once. the Iberian peninsula was not conquered at the time of Barbarossa- which came late, an oversight by GE (which won't be repeated). Axis decided to garrison southern Spain instead of trying to take Gibraltar as troops needed in the east. There's no way the CW could have done any thing until the US was ready and had been shipping units to North Africa. The opportunity to enter Spain came when several partisan appeared including the 4-3 Spanish one and were able to cut off supply to the axis units around Gibraltar (as adjoining sea areas also controlled by allies).

This is first GW game so so me unusual things have happened as rules/ strategy learned- like delaying Barbarossa or for the Japanese, being too timid in China and letting the allies keep Rabaul. but playing it out to the bitter end. How long does it take to become a credible player, which is my goal? I'm worried I'm going to have take early retirement or something

[brian brian]

dunno, could be a sneaky good strategy. suck the Allies onto the Continent in one of the better places to fight them - the mountains of Spain. Beats seeing them come ashore ten hexes from The Reich, or somewhere that makes Mussolini start to wobble. take some Spanish resources while the CW is engaged somewhere already and the Yankees are still pretty green, and without accelerating US Entry either. Kind of an acceptance that you won't be destroying Russia however.

[jboldt007]

I guess the issue with Spain is that there are only two rail lines into it. In this case a couple tough partisan units blocked the lines and without supply from sea the Axis had a problem. But yeah the allies are so far from Rome and the fatherland... and the axis can set up a tough line at the Pyrenees I suppose. Probably just better to go in through an invasion of Sicily or southern France or something.

[jboldt007]

Using extended game length which has resulted in some lollygagging too...

[Joseignacio]

It should be a very unprobable possibility that 2 partisans come to Spain in a turn. I would call it impossible, considering the partisan value (8), unless you are letting them accumulate. [:-]

Anyway, you can garrison (it would cost 4 points in the year of the attack, and 8 later) I would leave 4 units the first year (or more in case the Allies attack) and some more later, not because of the partisan negligible (then, 40%) partisan possibility but for the conquest of Gibraltar, now possible and most advisable (¡¡¡!!!) to control the Med, but also to garrison that back entrance to France, and of course I'd love to see what Brian said, I have seen it at EuroWIfCon and it's a good thing for the Axis player to have the Allies humbugged in the Mountains of Spain instead of invading France or Holland, for example.

Anyway, if you play with Emergency HQ support, that could help you if the bad came to worst, but if you reall want to get covered 100% against an occasional partisan uprisal you can buy a Supply unit and hold it under your HQ, if you spend it, that will become a Primary Supply for the whole turn.

And remember supply does not only come by land, it could reach by sea through the Atlantic or even better, the Med, so you could trace to Italy or south France and then to GE...

[AlbertN]

If you do Spain you should try to fix Gibraltar too in a way or another to be honest.

That not only allows supply via the Med (assuming you took Egypt too) but shortens drastically the amount of coastal hexes to be defended.
To have Spain -and- not have Gibraltar augments the landable hexes immensely.

[TeaLeaf]

If it is late in the game with the USA in the war already, I wouldn't bother taking Spain, and definately not Gibraltar, unless the allies look particularly weak in this theatre (and have very few transports), or Russia has been castrated already. Or if the Suez canal is closed to the Allies.

The thing with Gibraltar and Spain, is that it is in essence an overextension for the Axis.
If the allies are weak in Europe they may have a hard time capitalizing on that (that should only be during the first few years of the war), but if they look ready to respond with substantial force, a German penetration of Spain may be short-lived!

I don't know how late in your game it is, but from late 1942 into 1943 I don't think the allies should have a lot of problems conquering Italy if Germany is fighting Russia and attacks Spain + Gibraltar at the same time. After that, they can (should) launch invasions in Southern France and Bretagne (or Normandy), which easily cuts all supply to the Axis in Spain and beyond. But all this if the allies can stay in Control of at least the Suez Canal. Attacking Spain seems to be viable if you can expect to stay there for a long time. Otherwise it is not worth the effort and the risks.

On the Other hand, all strategy aside, (M)WiF is a game with a rather large luckfactor, so if you are the lucky one in this time, perhaps taking Spain will mean you'll stay there forever .

[jboldt007]

Good comments! Spain and Portugal just looked too darned tempting but it does feel like an over extension unless the gambit to take Gibraltar works out and even then there's all that coastline - particularly if the allies have shut down sea supply. Good idea about the Supply unit. That would have helped.

Yeah the partisans didn't appear at once but they seem to have come quickly: 0-2, 3-3 and the tough looking 4-2. Axis only had one HQ in the area so with no other convenient secondary supply had to pull in another HQ . But mistakes were made. Chaulk it up to experience.

[jboldt007]

I should say that when the axis units around Gibraltar were put out of supply the allies had enough air units to ground strike the ones at Gibraltar which gave allies enough advantage to move in and also take the port at Seville . But now it's not looking like it's all worth it for the allies. Maybe they will use it as a clever feint.

[AlbertN]

Ehm, no Gibraltar and Spain are not an over extension for the Axis, it's actually a shortening of the beaches IF they close the Med by taking both Gibraltar and Suez.

Pratically they free up Southern Spain, Italy whole and Balkan shores from garrisons against landings - which can be used for Hyberian Peninsula.
That adds a 2nd belt around Italy as well keeping Italy longer in the game.

[jboldt007]

Yep makes sense if the Med becomes the "Italian Lake"- alas not the case in my game- italy didn't pull off taking Suez for starters.

[jboldt007]

So.... how do the axis actually capture Gibraltar?? It would seem the only way would be to put it out of supply and then hit it with everything in the book. But CW / French fleet come heck or high water isn't going to let that happen- at least from the Atlantic side...?

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: jboldt007

Yep makes sense if the Med becomes the "Italian Lake"- alas not the case in my game- italy didn't pull off taking Suez for starters.

That's too bad. However, it may be able. It's a nightmare for the CW to send reinforcements to the Med through the long route around Africa, and the ones already thereare easy to unsuppply if the Jap attack in the Red Sea.

Of course the CW can send a strong task force but then they can not cover everything: Med, Red Sea, escort to convoys, Atlantic ocean operations, Asia, ... The Italians could cut supply in the med or the wolfpack have an exciting period, even a Sea Lion...

And in these conditions it would not be impossible to end taking Suez.

[Joseignacio]

You can attack several times, with divisions, including marine divisions and, when available, marine corps. You try to unsupply it.

It may be done at the beginning of one turn is the allies leave few ships in the RTB, and you have some subs or control Morocco and can send planes. Then, double the value with ships (unless you have Morocco or CV your planes won't reach) and pray, there are some results that will make you have many losses but he may lose his 1 or 2 units defending while some of yours survive.

Using the surprise impulse can be helpful if you want to try to unsupply them (planes don't fly ---> CV's) and ships get better positions at sea to try to kick other forces out of the near seas and unsupply. If you had bases at Morocco then planes support double or ground strike twice...

You may need to try several times and take heavy losses each time. Of course the easiest way is to do it from Spain, after invading it (like Hitler planned to do, only he wanted Franco to let him pass, which he didn't).

[AlbertN]

Gibraltar in many cases is a matter of gaining modifier not by strength ratio. Since that usually is very high and even worse with defensive shore bombing.

You need to have everything there flipped (disorganized) and usually that's a +5. You get +2 via HQ support. A +2 about for 1:1 ratio. That's a +9 already, that means 11+ rolls are good for you.
You can add Paratroopers for a total of +2.5 points (even more if they add the notional but usually that's not the case).
And that's pretty much it.

Unless you play with Limited Oversea Supply optional. Then usually a raging battle for the control of Cape St. Vincent happens; where Germany plays combined all the impulses (or land if Italy enables the naval combat) so to be ready to attack Gibraltar in case that impulse is wiped out of supply.

I've never played with the 1D10 base system - as I prefer the "averaging" of the 2d10 for the outcomes more than the total (and less predictable) swings of the 1d10.

[Joseignacio]

Getting a +5 depending on how many units the defender leaves. A high value white print and a strong div can do a good trick to defend Gibraltar, that's only a +3, making the modifiers worse, but on the other side two kills and you are done.

I am curious: How would you flip them? I guess only having some Morocchian area which lets your bombers reach, or Spain, no? Else with CVPs from unprobable CVs with crappy bombing factors...

And here is a really newbie question (I am ashamed) cause I believe long time ago somebody swindled me? You cannot as a defender to assign the first loss to the notional, do you? I was told when I was attacking Gibraltar (back whn I was learning the game, which took me years to handle) that you needed to destroy that unit as well if yu wanted to take the soil.

[jboldt007]

I recall that's the case about not being able to take notional as first loss. But, another question as a bit of an aside- I know the handbook briefly discusses this but why would one not use the notional as the defender- something about denying the invader the chance to blitz out of the hex?

Also: good point to remember - it's not always about the strength ratio but how many '+' s as an attacker one can get in the hex.