Anyone else having convoy trouble in 2.5.1?

[Joseignacio]

I think that would be the best, at least till they make it work properly. We boardgame players do it that way and it's a little bureaucratic and you can forget some convoys sometimes, but it's better than this nonsense where you cannot set them up as you wish and they may come back to default without warning...

[TeaLeaf]

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar

Maybe a silly question but, wouldn't be easier for the program (and for the player) if MWiF does not create convoy routes through the sea? If just the player has to set the routes manually and the routes stick there until the player wants to change them?

It seems that automatic routing may not be beneficial after all.

I agree Juntoalmar, I suggested this as well a few times.
Of course, if MWiF ever wants to get an AI, that AI needs to be able to create convoy lines for itself, but in player versus player it is definately unnecessary that an AI creates your convoy lines. I'd say creating convoy lines should be removed from player versus player games indeed (and thus also from single player). Let alone if the game even should have an AI at this point. We need a stable game first, then more optional rules implemented and then even some standard rules need to find their way back in the game (most notable: ships moving through port during their movement and something that pays more respect to the rule that during land movement, overstacking does not exist).

After that, I guess more stabilization is again required (introducing new rules tend to introduce instabilities as well).

I Hope AllenK's steps hold out, cause I experienced some new nasty things a few minutes ago: When I finally was a satisfied with the allied convoys (after hours and hours of trial and error), There were a few unused convoys left on the map. Five in total, so I picked them up and rebased them. This action killed all the hard work I had done. All overrides, manual routes and the few defaults I had still set, were undone. A mess was created, again! It is infuriating! Rebasing unused convs killing existing convoy lines.

Also, saving, exiting and restoring the game changed things in the convoy lines as well. Sometimes. Sigh...

[juntoalmar]

ORIGINAL: TeaLeaf
There were a few unused convoys left on the map. Five in total, so I picked them up and rebased them. This action killed all the hard work I had done. All overrides, manual routes and the few defaults I had still set, were undone. A mess was created, again! It is infuriating! Rebasing unused convs killing existing convoy lines.

I'm not an expert but maybe the convoys that you rebased weren't the unused ones. After all, if a sea area has 10 convoys and 5 of them are unused, how can we know which one is being used and which one is "free"?

[TeaLeaf]

Indeed, Juntoalmar. I thought so myself as well . We cannot know.
As it is now, the alternative is to leave all unused convs where they are, out of fear of having to deal with a big mess in sealanes -again.

If removing the AI from convoying is not an option, then maybe it is time for Steve to add another priority to the list of convoy-AI priorities:
if convs are removed from a sea area (for whatever reason), do NOT change the route if enough eligible convs remain in that area to maintain the same route.

After hours and hours of trial and error, experiencing MadExes, saving and restoring the game, I finally managed to set up a satisfying convoy system after I installed 2.5.1.
I could not do it with AllenK's steps, but rather I had to fill the sea areas MWiF seemed to prefer with more and more convs, until MWiF itself started to make more efficient changes to the routes taken. I could introduce a few key overrides, but there still are unused convs that I dare not touch anymore.

Though I am repeating myself, the most important thing regarding convoys remains making MWiF accept player changes again. Whether that be one-turn overrides, defaults, changes in the route, name it. OR... indeed removing the AI from the convoy system. Just let players themselves create the pipelines. as long as they do so within the rules, ofc.

[juntoalmar]

Still, it's kind of strange that if you removed one convoy from the sea area that was part of a convoy path, when recalculating, the AI didn't choose another one in the same sea area to maintain the route (instead of finding a new route).

[AllenK]

See my post 13. I was able to remove the unused CP's from Biscay with no impact on the Default routes.

I have just continued the set-up from where that left off (5 resources from Canada to UK and 3 from Africa to UK). It took me 20 minutes to finish the complete set up. There were no problems, no MadEx's and just one more route that had to be prorammed as a default. CW is producing 12, has all bar one oil saved (the other is going to production to UK from Canada), has 2 CP's in Bengal ready to send Malaysian resources to China as soon as that becomes possible and has 5 CP's spare around the board. The routes are either of my choosing or MWiF has picked the route I would have used anyway.

Game file attached. The CP net is surviving saving and reopening and also the set-up tray is opening as expected for the remaining CW units to be placed.

[TeaLeaf]

Hey AllenK,

We are talking about two different games >.<
I added my own current game a while ago, since I think it fits nicely in this thread, seeing its title.
If you want to have a go at it, savegame is in post #5. I will also add my current progress in a savegame below.

To get from the savegame in post #5 to the savegame below, it took me hours upon hours, mainly because I experienced a LOT of MadExs, undoing all my work repeatedly. Then I thought to save my game after some steps and reload when I see a MadEx, but that didn't work either, because I found out you can save a MadEx-to-happen. In other words: you can save a point that will always produce a MadEx. So then it is back to square1. Also, restoring the last saved game sometimes gave me a different situation than what I saved!
The save below is a good example: pay close attention to the CW build point that is traded to France. If you load the game, it is lost, but I absolutely saved it being transported to France (Dakar).

Not to mention what I stated before: if you tackle a problem, you often create multiple new ones.
Well, that is if you don't know how to tackle a specific situation. Right now, if I would have to get from my save in post #5 to the save below, it would take me about 15 minutes I guess, because I now know how to handle this specific situation. And you have been dealing with multiple MadExs in Aranthus' setup as well and by trial and error you figured out how to handle that specific situation too. But my guess is Aranthus' problems ain't over. I know how to deal with MWiF convoys, but it keeps tiring me out with new bad messy situations every time. The song is always the same: I will eventually find out what to do in that particular situation, but I have not found 1 set of steps that worked me through all different situations I encountered so far. It is always a time consuming troubleshooting, instead of just playing the game. Conv-system does not work how it should. Not by far.

The goal from savegame #5 is obviously to get all 21 CW factories non-oil resources to work with and save all oil except the Saoudi one (that one can be consumed on the spot every turn). USA must be getting their 46 resources as well and France must receive 2BPs every turn.

As you can see in the save below, I finally succeeded at that, but with some leftover unused convoys that I don't want to touch. If I rebase a single one of them, MWiF creates a mess again.

[AllenK]

TeaLeaf,

I got one MadEx in Aranthus' set-up. That occurred when I was trying to figure out what I'd done the previous night when I found I got into the swing of Default route setting. The routes were going in easily and sticking and no MadEx's. If you get the process right, it seems to work okay but it's temperamental. If you don't follow the process, fairly random click and hope (as I was doing) produced MadEx's. The other issue I have found is I sometimes have to click two or three times between the Produce and Where To boxes on the Rail/Ship list before the list of factories comes up. A minor inconvenience but another example of the stickiness I referred to.

When I downloaded and tried to run your game file from post 5, I got the error message below. The game did load afterwards, telling me it would use a NewGame file or create the missing one but what impact that has on playability, I don't know. I don't get that message with my games, so I'm not sure whether there is a problem with your game file that is impacting on the CP system.

Edit: Same problem with the later save you posted as well.

[paulderynck]

The message is about the fact that the custom screen layout used by TeaLeaf does not exist in the MWiF files on your PC. MWiF using the default New Game in its place is exactly what it is supposed to do. It is highly unlikely this has any impact (good or bad) on the CP routing issues.

[TeaLeaf]

What paul said. Just use your own SLY [;)].

Maybe I picked the exact wrong route to try, but I applied your steps to one of the routes in my game and it didnt work. But it is appreciated anyway, ofc!
Or it did work but created more (and most likely more difficult) problems further up in the pipelines. I don't exactly remember but I do remember surrendered to the AI and sailed more convs into the areas MWiF seemed to like. I think it is obvious this is not how convoys should be managed in '39, '40, and maybe even '41. Allies don't have enough or cannot build as many. Even now, in '44 it is not preferred because you don't always have extra convs where MWiF wants you to have them.

Happy I can finally start sailing other ships and working closer to retake The Rock again [8D].

[AllenK]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

The message is about the fact that the custom screen layout used by TeaLeaf does not exist in the MWiF files on your PC. MWiF using the default New Game in its place is exactly what it is supposed to do. It is highly unlikely this has any impact (good or bad) on the CP routing issues.

Thanks Paul.

[AllenK]

ORIGINAL: TeaLeaf

What paul said. Just use your own SLY [;)].

Maybe I picked the exact wrong route to try, but I applied your steps to one of the routes in my game and it didnt work. But it is appreciated anyway, ofc!
Or it did work but created more (and most likely more difficult) problems further up in the pipelines. I don't exactly remember but I do remember surrendered to the AI and sailed more convs into the areas MWiF seemed to like. I think it is obvious this is not how convoys should be managed in '39, '40, and maybe even '41. Allies don't have enough or cannot build as many. Even now, in '44 it is not preferred because you don't always have extra convs where MWiF wants you to have them.

Happy I can finally start sailing other ships and working closer to retake The Rock again [8D].

That others are having serious difficulties with their convoys I don't deny. It just hasn't been my experience. I still do get problems but I seem to be able to overcome them. I still haven't fully worked out exactly how but once I've got into the rhythm of setting those default routes, they all went smoothly.

I'll have a go tonight at the 'Mess' save but first I have an Italian set-up to attend to.

[AllenK]

Okay, I'll concede defeat on the "Mess" game save. The MadEx's just keep on coming as reported. I'm impressed you managed to get as far as you did with your later save [&o].

This raises a couple of questions.

At the set-up phase, whether starting from scratch or using an existing save file, the CW CP routing has gone fine for me, without significant problems.

Picking up TeaLeaf's game, which is in 1944, produces MadEx's at every turn. The 1944 situation is considerably more complex than 1939 at set-up.

1. Is there a capacity issue? Can the MWiF CP algorithms only cope up to a certain point?
2. The Faeroes sea zone seems to be a blind spot. MWiF happily sends resources from other countries through it automatically but seems to ignore the existence of available CP's in Faeroes where Canadian resources are concerned. At set-up I have been able to counteract that with Default route programming but in the 1944 game, it simply breaks down with a MadEx. Is there a specific fault associated with that sea-zone or the Canada to UK route?
3. What is the history of this game? When previous MadEx's have occurred (if they have) has the game been simply continued, saved and then restarted or abandoned and restarted at the closest point prior to the MadEx? The advice I have been given is not to continue beyond MadEx's or save and continue due to the risk of saving bad or corrupted data/values in the file. Are the problems here the legacy of previous MadEx's?

I've just started a game with Mayhemizer from scratch using 2.5.1. We'll be able to see how the CP situation progresses as the convoy requirements get more complex.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

I think I have fixed the problems reported in this thread with version 2.5.1.xx and routing resources overseas.

However, I haven't downloaded and run through all the saved games provided herein. That would take me additional time.

What I have tested are all the saved games that were emailed to me regarding these problems and checked that the Mad Except errors generated and emailed by other players had the same root cause.

So, I am pretty confident that the Hot Patch (version 02.05.02.00) I am about to upload will take care of all the problems reported here.

[TeaLeaf]

Thanks for the hot patch Steve.
Downloaded it right away and are hoping for the best >.<

@AllenK:
Thanks for spending time on the "mess" game [:)]. Trying to recall what I did exactly to get to my last save, I now doubt I can reproduce it. What pretty much is the problem I have (hopefully had!) had with the convoy system so far: it can produce problems like this, that are even ten times as complicated to solve as learning and playing WiF in the first place.

Regarding your 3rd question (I am hopelessly unqualified to answer the first 2 [;)]): When previous MadEx's have occurred (damn sure they have) the game has been continued and saved if possible (very rarely, but possible). Then restarted and continued. Mostly though, just restarted at the closest point prior to the MadEx. Are the problems here the legacy of previous MadEx's? I don't know. I'll take your advice not to save a MadEx to heart though. One little something in my 'defence', the mess definately started after installing 2.5.1.

So my first thought is savegames could be (more -or- less) incompatible with newer versions of the game.
Or 2.5.1 introduced something to multiply my MadEx legacy or has indeed some killers of its own. Playing a while with Steve's new hotpatch will tell, I hope.

[AllenK]

Thanks TeaLeaf,

Good luck. I'll give it a go myself once I've downloaded the patch.

My questions 1 and 2 were more posed to the wider forum and would be where I might have been looking if I had the programming skill to do so.

Not saving and carrying on after a MadEx was early advice I picked up and sticking to it has possibly helped in avoiding problems. Either that or my play is relatively simple and stays well within the normal range the program copes pretty well with.

It's been a useful learning exercise for me and hopefully, it's these sort of intensive tests that help Steve track down where problems lie.

[AllenK]

Well, I had a couple of false starts due to MadEx's but the attached meets the brief and has the spare CP's moved back to ports. The new patch is certainly working better. Good work Steve.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: AllenK

Thanks TeaLeaf,

Good luck. I'll give it a go myself once I've downloaded the patch.

My questions 1 and 2 were more posed to the wider forum and would be where I might have been looking if I had the programming skill to do so.

Not saving and carrying on after a MadEx was early advice I picked up and sticking to it has possibly helped in avoiding problems. Either that or my play is relatively simple and stays well within the normal range the program copes pretty well with.

It's been a useful learning exercise for me and hopefully, it's these sort of intensive tests that help Steve track down where problems lie.

If a Mad Except happens, it is possible that the game gets damaged. Therefore it is wise not to continue a game after a Mad Except occurs but to restore an earlier gamesave.

[TeaLeaf]

Sad to hear you've got some MadExs, AllenK. But if it is only a few, that's better already.
I rebased all spare (unused) convoys without a problem. Also sailed a lot of CW ships without a problem. They are preparing Something for Adolf . So no MAdExs for me, but I realize I had nothing left to do in the production planning. I hope it is again possible to manually change the sea routes a resource or BP takes. Or to default particular resources. Haven't tried all that yet.

Thanks guys!
And especially Steve for the hotpatch!

[AllenK]

The game I posted has Default routes and destinations working OK. The strange thing about the MadEx's was just by doing the resources in a different sequence got around them but still using the same settings.