Anyone else having convoy trouble in 2.5.1?

[Aranthus]

Same issue as in previous versions, though now it is worse. In set up, trying to create a convoy system that routes the Canadian and Venezuelan resources through the Faroes (where they will be farther from the Germans when they take France). Except the computer ignores some or all of the convoys in the Faroes and routes the Canadian resources through Bay of Biscay, thereby preventing delivery of resources from Africa, India, and Australia. Then when I try to correct and re-route through the Faroes, the computer will not accept the change. Even though the change shows on the default route and the override route, it is clear that the computer is still avoiding the Faroes and some of the British resources are not being delivered. And yes, I am going to simply place those convoys in Bay of Biscay except for one that provides supply to the fleet in Scapa, but then that one is likely to be wasted for transporting resources, plus then the Germans have an easier shot at all the convoys in Biscay.

[rkr1958]

Possible to post your game turn?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Since Aranthus said this was during Setup, I assume there is no "game turn" as such.

However, if a saved game with all the Commonwealth convoys on the map is available - even during Setup, I'll take a look at this.

Setup is a difficult time for the program to route resources since not all the major powers have placed their units on the map. The Commonwealth sets up late in the setup order, so that probably is not playing a role here.

The Commonwealth player is oftentimes worrying about the Production Planning when placing his convoys on the map, although the resources don't get transported until after the end of the first turn. But this is the first time I have had players planning on events following the collapse of France and the declaration of Vichy - which shouldn't happen until 5 or 6 turns in the future.

[Aranthus]

Here is the saved game. Thanks for looking at this.

[TeaLeaf]

Unfortunately, what Aranthus has stated counts for me as well: regarding convoys, 2.5.1 is actually worse to play than previous versions...

Check my savegame and see.
1. Unused allied convoys.
For a simple start, see that it is possible to send the idle Australian resource to a Canadian factory AND one of the canadian non-oil resources to one of the idle factories in the UK. For some reason the game doesn't do this on its own, so you must default them.

2. It is not possible to do as planned in 1 above.
At least I couldn't do it. If I for example default the canadian resource sent to Toronto, to Newcastle in the UK instead, the game defaults it to Toronto! It is smart-assing me!
Defaulting the idle Australian resource to one of the Canadian factories, results in the game defaulting it to Melbourne, Australia instead! What is this crap?!

3. The game still does not accept changes to the route of a convoy line.
For a simple example, see how the resource in Canada is sent to the UK via bay of Biscay. I change that to Faeroes Gap, hit the recompute button and the game refuses to relocate the pipeline.

Anyway, I have been trying to make it work for the CW but I couldn't do it. I hit a stone wall and get stuck all the time. This isn't fun. Instead of playing the game I am troubleshooting for hours .

Maybe savegames from older versions do not work with newer versions, but seeing what Aranthus wrote, I have very low hope for that.
I fear Steve needs to erase everything related to convoying from MWiF and start anew from scratch. Because everytime he tries to fix the existing convoy system it either gets worse, or stays as bad as it was before.

[AllenK]

After much trial and error, I have managed to get the CW convoys set up as I wanted. I had similar problems getting Canadian resources to go to UK via Faeroes. In the end I found I had to make sure I had Override selected. I then selected the factory in the U.K. As the override destination. It shows in blue when done. After that, I could set the override route via Faeroes. If you don't select Override you set a Default, which seemed to have little impact on MWiF's routing decisions.

It still wasn't guaranteed they would follow that route but I think those deviations occurred when I tried to send more resources though a sea zone than CP's. In that case the program forced the Override routes though however it could.

There were a couple of MadEx's in the manual route setting and also a couple of recurrences of a problem with 2.2.2 where right clicking to remove sea zones didn't work. Instead the program just added the sea zone at the bottom, after the destination. I should have taken a screenshot. I'll have another go later to see if I can reproduce.

Edit: Screenshot of the manual route setting problem. After right-clicking, this is what came up.

[AllenK]

Game file attached.

By coming out of production planning and then going back in to redo the Override, I was able get around the problem above and manually set the route okay. However, I then ran into a series of MadEx's when trying the same on a route from British Guyanna - Mouth of Amazon - Central Atlantic - North Atlantic - Faeroes - Glasgow.

[AllenK]

Working from scratch, rather than from the game file started in previous versions, I was able to complete set-up with only one MadEx during set-up. I'd saved as I went, so reloading wasn't a problem and it went fine next time through. That makes two CW CP set-ups that have gone fine starting from scratch using 2.5.1.

[TeaLeaf]

So basically, the 'default' option does not work anymore for planning efficient convoy-routes.
Convoy planning now has to be done only with override option, which has to be repeated every turn. Not fun [:-].

Plus the MadEx-count is popping up very frequently now (at least when I try to plan my convoys).
If I mailed all of them I know who would get a MadEx in his head .

Plus changing sea areas in a convoy route (very important function!) seems to work only in a very few situations. MWiF still refuses my changes 19/20 times.

[AllenK]

ORIGINAL: TeaLeaf

So basically, the 'default' option does not work anymore for planning efficient convoy-routes.
Convoy planning now has to be done only with override option, which has to be repeated every turn. Not fun [:-].

Plus the MadEx-count is popping up very frequently now (at least when I try to plan my convoys).
If I mailed all of them I know who would get a MadEx in his head .

Plus changing sea areas in a convoy route (very important function!) seems to work only in a very few situations. MWiF still refuses my changes 19/20 times.

Good point on Overrides, I hadn't spotted that in the manual. That would be a right pain. I've therefore tried a small test with a game save file that had been saved at the end of Chinese setup, so I just had to end that phase to go into CW set-up.

I created a 5 CP chain from Canada- East Coast - North Atlantic - Faeroes - UK and put an additional 5 CP's in Biscay.

By default, MFiW sent 3 resources to UK, via Biscay. I was able to set Default paths for all 5 Canadian resources to ship them via Faeroes. The routes have survived me closing and reopening the form and saving the game and reloading it. As hoped, the map shows 5 unused CP's in Biscay.

To get it to work, I had to set a new Default factory from the one MWiF had picked. Using the same factory was MWiF had picked was less successful. I could then use the manual route setting function to input the Faeroes route. It did took a bit of clicking and trial and error but it seems to have stuck. No MadEx's.

[BrianJH]

AllenK, it is interesting that you claim some success with setting up routes with the recent 2.5.1 update. Sorry, but I cant say the same.

To demonstrate how authoritative the route definition system is, take this example in the save game I've attached below during CW Setup. You will see I've defined the routes for 5 Canadian resources sent to the UK as Overides. Open up the CW Production Planning and note the routes of all five overides all traverse through EastCoast -> NorthAtlantic -> FaerosGap.

Now close Production Planning, and move the 9CP unit in Belfast into the BayOfBiscay.

Now Open CW Production Planning again, and check the routes of those 5 resources set as Overides again. Everyone of them is now routing through the BayOfBiscay.

These are Overides, and yet the code see's fit to change the route definitions. The routes don't stick as they should, even as overides! I could never get it working using Default routes either, in fact its worse, as I couldn't do it. Two of the Canadian resources insisted routeing to the Canadian factories even though one of them had a Default set to receive a Resource from Australia.

So I would contend that even if you succeed in setting up your routes as you have, moving CP's around certain sea areas will cause all of your hard work to come unstuck, later on.

Brian.

Resource Route before moving the 9CP Unit.

[BrianJH]

Save Game

[BrianJH]

Resource Route after moving the 9CP unit in Belfast to BayOfBiscay.

[AllenK]

Not a claim, fact. I can post the save file if needed to verify my report.

I posted this to correct my earlier post where I said Default routes seemed to have little effect. In my experimentation, I realised I hadn't fully understood how the system worked. I probably still don't but what I did learn was that to get a Default or Override to stick, I needed to set both the destination and manually programme the route to use from within the Default or Override settings menu. It didn't always take and sometimes I had to experiment with different destination factories but ultimately it worked and 5 Defaults were set and stayed set. If I didn't set the route and only set the destination, MWiF used whatever it thought best.

I didn't have time to carry on with the CP set-up last night but will continue the test by completing the rest.

Edit: I successfully managed to remove 2 CP's from Biscay and then create a 3 CP chain from Africa to UK. MWiF happily sent the 3 African resources to UK and didn't touch my Default routes from Canada.

[TeaLeaf]

It clearly is not working as it should.

It is a nightmare to create/fix convoy routes because if you have solved one inefficiency, you most likely will create another with your very solution. It is like a multi headed beast that spawns two more heads if you chop off one. And on top of that, a MadEx pops up every 10 minutes while you are busy going in and out the production screens. Routing only a few resources may take as much as two hours now, because of all this.

Two years ago, when I started playing MWiF, The program was far from perfect in creating its own convoy lines, but at least it was fun to play because it accepted changes and thus players could create a playable, working (stable) convoy system. Using default routes and/or overrides that stuck. But also changing sea areas within a certain convoy line.
If I did not want an Indian resource to be transported through the med (defaulted to a factory in the UK), I could tell the program to transport it around Africa and it accepted that without question. Nowadays it doesn't. Or if it does, it is too damn hard to get to know how.

I think Steve's priority should be to make MWiF accept our changes again.
I said it before: I don't think it is important that MWiF creates its own efficient convoy routes (at this stage of development). It is important that a player can correct the mistakes from MWiF with the default/override option and by changing the route a resource takes to a certain factory (or other end station). Only when MWiF gets an AI-opponent, it is important that that AIcould make efficient convoys.

[AllenK]

The process is sticky and a bit temperamental unless you get it right. It took me a couple times of going into and out of production planning and a game reload but once I had reloaded, the following procedure worked. The reload was necessary because of a MadEx.

1. Select resource.
2. Clear Default (if present).
3. Clear Override
4. Reset destination - Don't press recompute at this point.
5. Manually set the route by first right clicking in the route box, this should bring up text in red representing the start point.
6. Manually set the convoy route as described in the manual by left clicking once in each sea-zone and then a second left-click in the final sea zone.
7. Now hit recompute.

Once I got this routine going, setting the five resources went smoothly.

Picture attached from BrianJH's game file.

BrianJH, I've reprogrammed the five Canadian resources from Override to Default routes using this method. I'll post the new save file in the next thread.

[AllenK]

Save file attached. The Default routes have remained in replace and were still there when I reloaded the file.

[TeaLeaf]

Great you seem to have found a workaround.
I am still pessimistic about the expiration time of it, given the unstable nature of the current build.

Fat chance that you'll have to recreate with the workaround a large portion of your convoys a lot of times. It is a nightmare to solve and then that solution works only a few turns, throwing you back into the same nightmare again. And again.

Few examples that happened to me:
1. when Allies conquer 1 new resource that could (and thus will) be given/transported to CW, the entire conv system becomes a mess again -major recreation needed;
2. when Allies sail 1 or more new convs into a sea area to get supplies to a new area, the entire conv system becomes a mess again -major recreation needed;
3. when Allies sail convs to rebase, the entire conv system becomes a mess again -major recreation may be needed (I never dared to take the risk of finding out and rebased convs the safe way only, going from port to port). I hate needing to redo my convoy lanes unnecessarily.

[BrianJH]

Yes, thanks to AllenK's detailed steps, I also am able to now get this to work after some effort. The route definition element of the game still needs some more work to make it more robust.

The MadEx's goes without saying, I'm sure Steve will tackle these and squash them in due course.

Brian.

[juntoalmar]

Maybe a silly question but, wouldn't be easier for the program (and for the player) if MWiF does not create convoy routes through the sea? If just the player has to set the routes manually and the routes stick there until the player wants to change them?

It seems that automatic routing may not be beneficial after all.