HamburgerMeat (Allies) vs Cpuncher (Axis) Educational AAR (1.06)

[HamburgerMeat]

I've had a very busy month, but I am back and available. I'll just continue using this thread

[Cpuncher]

Hamburger is probably busy, so I will start posting from the Axis side. Game has been restarted though we haven't progressed very far. We are at Jan 1940 right now. I didn't take any screen shots earlier but will do so from here on.

BTW, server's been constantly giving communication errors recently and that's frustrating.

Let me start by saying this is one of the best WW2 strategy games I've ever played (and I've played a lot of them). It's almost like playing Chess, you have to move your pieces to the exact spot with the exact sequence. After having played at least 15 MP games and numerous hot seats against myself I am still optimizing my first turn moves. The strategic decisions you make will have profound impact down the road and there are many of them to make. So kudos to the developers. But then, I also have many things to complain...well maybe another time for that.

Also Kudos to whoever enjoy playing this game. This game is not for a beer and pretzel type of guy.

So, WW2 has started and Germany took Poland in 1 turn...

[Cpuncher]

There is a very detailed post by LuciusSulla on how to take Poland in 1 turn: please search it up, I'm not allowed to post links yet (It's titled: Repeatable Strategy to Conquer Warsaw on turn 1)

However I use a somewhat different method. Where LuciusSulla use 4 Tank attacks, 1 Tac B, and 1 Corp attack to take Warsaw, I use 3 Tank, 1 Army and 1 Tac B. It's very important to attack in this particular order too. If the 3 Tank attacks can generate 1 dmg, then you are guaranteed to take Warsaw. Even the 3 tank attacks fail to do any dmg, you still have a chance.

This plan has about the same chance to take Warsaw, but use far less other units, which need to move/upgrade to be ready for France and others.

Won't go into details on the research here as the game is ongoing. Just say I had to cancel a lot of them to get the MPPs for upgrading many units on turn 1.

[Cpuncher]

Game Tips 1: Micro-manage HQs.
I use auto-assist for all HQs. At the start of a turn I detach all units, then attach each unit 1 at a time just before them to attack/move. If available Armies/Tanks/Paras/Specials are attached to the highest rated HQs then Ftrs, then Bombers, then Corps. Units that won't attack or may not be attacked will stay un-attached. In general units are for strength dmg dealing are attached to higher rated HQs while those for morale/entrenchment reduction are attached to lower ones or not attached at all.

[Elessar2]

ORIGINAL: Cpuncher

There is a very detailed post by LuciusSulla on how to take Poland in 1 turn: please search it up, I'm not allowed to post links yet (It's titled: Repeatable Strategy to Conquer Warsaw on turn 1)

However I use a somewhat different method. Where LuciusSulla use 4 Tank attacks, 1 Tac B, and 1 Corp attack to take Warsaw, I use 3 Tank, 1 Army and 1 Tac B. It's very important to attack in this particular order too. If the 3 Tank attacks can generate 1 dmg, then you are guaranteed to take Warsaw. Even the 3 tank attacks fail to do any dmg, you still have a chance.

This plan has about the same chance to take Warsaw, but use far less other units, which need to move/upgrade to be ready for France and others.

Won't go into details on the research here as the game is ongoing. Just say I had to cancel a lot of them to get the MPPs for upgrading many units on turn 1.

This is an argument to randomize the "automatic" setup upon a DoW.

[Cpuncher]

For the sake of this thread that HambugerMeat wanted it to be an educational one, I will talk more about game Tips and Choices/decisions (for beginners/intermediate players) rather than much detailed AAR.

For Germany, speed is of utmost importance. It must use its superb military assets to gain real estate as quickly as possible. The plan is to take Poland in 1 or 2 Axis turns (All turn numbers I use here will be Axis turns, not game turns). Dow Denmark on turn 2 and take it on turn 3. Dow and take Belgium on Turn 4, and move into northern France on Turn 5 (late Dec 1939)...

Although taking Poland in 1 turn is better, taking it in 2 turns is not bad either. It allows a reduced Russian mobilization when they agree to the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact (if you take Poland in 1 turn then Russia won't have the option to turn down the pact but won't take the mobilization penalty either), and some extra National Morale Bonus by finishing up a few isolated Polish troops. Since you only need to leave a couple Armies/Tanks plus enough corps to finish off Poland in turn 2, majority of them can still be operated to Belgium border and upgraded, and take Belgium in Turn 4.

To Dow Denmark on Turn 2, I would move 1 corps to its border and upgrade my Med Bomber on turn 1. Sometimes 1 of the 2 Tac Bombers is not needed to take Warsaw and I would also move it within range of Copenhagen. Upon Dow, Denmark will have a strength 1 garrison which for most part can be taken out by the upgraded Med Bomber. Occasionally the Med Bomber will fail then the back up Tac Bomber if it's available. If not then I will have to move all 3 bombers in range to take it out in Turn 3, which will really hurt the Belgium/France side...luckily this hasn't happened in any of my PBEM games yet.

To Dow Denmark seems a no brainer to me. It only mobilize Russia a little bit, but not US. For most part I'm more concerned of US mobilization than Russia. I'm pretty confident in defeating Russia in the current game setup, while early US mobilization can be a huge problem down the road.

[Marcinos1985]

Glad to see you both playing again. Your opening seems to be pretty refined. Allies probably don't have a straightforward answer to this.
Your confidence regarding Russia is interesting, let's see what HM will do.

[HamburgerMeat]

My schedule just freed up significantly, so I should be back in business.

Cpuncher is the toughest opponent I have faced since zzmzzm. My turns will have to be thorough.

France will fall in February-March 1940, about 1-2 turns faster than usual. However, the speed of his push also reduces his ability to protect the Italian navy as it is not possible to get Maritime bombers in time

Still, it is a net gain for the axis as they get French MPPs 1-2 turns earlier

[Cpuncher]

A quick recap of what happened so far

Sep.1, 1939
After destroying several Polish units and damaging a few others, German panzers roll onto the streets of Warsaw. For the first time, the world witnessed Blitzkrieg in full display. The proud Polish Cavalry, who had a glorious past, were no match of the panzers. Poland surrendered, and got divided up between Germany and Russia. All was quiet on the western front.
Italy reorganized its limited resources to focus on new researches, while sending a small naval detachment to the Atlantic.
Japan began an aggressive campaign to put as much pressure on China as possible. It destroyed a Chinese corps southwest of Nanchang, and severely mauled an Army northeast of Chengchow. I corps took the undefended Pakhoi. Work began to upgrade the bombers on its carrier fleet.

Sep. 29, 1939
Germany operated its armies to the Belgium border and began preparing for an invasion. Meanwhile war is declared on Denmark and German bombers dissuaded a small garrison from putting up a fight. A German corps marched close to Copenhagen. Heavy Cruiser or Pocket Battleship Deutschland was spotted off the southeast coast of Iceland and hunted by multiple allied units. She was able to escape for now.
Italy put all of its limited resources into more research.
Japan mauled a Chinese corps northeast of Changsha while destroying a newly arrived unit northeast of Chengchow. With a Chinese corps taking up positions in the mountains north of Pakhoi, attack on Nanning was halted. This Chinese corps must be removed at all cost, or Okamura HQ can't move into Parhoi to keep the supplies moving freely for the attack on Nanning. Luckily all carriers have finished their upgrading and will be ready to deal damage to this corps.

[Cpuncher]

Oct 27, 1939
Germany upgraded all of its armies to prepare for the invasion of Belgium and France. War was declared on Luxembourg and a German army marched into the capitol. Luxembourg surrendered. An allied bomber unit was spotted nearby and together with a couple allied fighter units trying to defend it, were badly mauled by the heroic and superior German air force. Copenhagen was occupied and Denmark surrendered. Deutschland was again caught by the allied ships and was badly damaged. There was to be no escape this time. Prepare to scuttle the ship!
Italy continued to pour all of her resources into research.
Japan kept on attacking on all fronts. Significant progress was made towards both Chengchow and Changsha with a couple Chinese units destroyed. Against all of Japan's carrier borne aircraft and superior Japanese ground units, the Chinese corps occupying the mountains north of Pakhoi defended heroically and only suffered partial damage.

Nov 24, 1939
War began on the western front! Germany took fort Eben Emael and quickly overwhelm the Belgium force. There was no chance for them. Belgium surrendered. A few German units already attacked into France and dealt some damage. The weather had be good and our air force had been busy flying sorties the whole time. No allied air force ever bothered to show up. Things were not looking good for the allies. Meanwhile sad news arrived that Deutschland was sunk before she could beach herself on the southern coast of Iceland, not too far from the port of Julianehåb. Captain bid farewell to the Führer in his last telegram and decided to go down with the ship. Deutschland's last salvo hit a British BC and damaged her. There has been much talk to change the name of the ship to Lützow to prevent the name "Deutschland" being sunk, which is really bad for morale...
Italy is fast preparing to join the war. Troops were sent to reinforce North Africa.
To the surprise of the Japanese high command, the Chinese abandoned the key mountain position north of Pakhoi. Now the road to Nanning is open. Meanwhile, Chinese units near Changsha and Chengchow continued to be hammered, and both cities were to fall soon...Japan is preparing attacks on the Chinese units west of Wuhan.

[Treefrog]

so I assume diagram shows Axis positions January 1940.
Where is the French army?

[Cpuncher]

Dec 22, 1939
German armies and Panzers began attacking into France. A couple French units were destroyed or badly damaged. All of the best German units were in position to thrust toward Paris from the North. Surprisingly, the French abandoned the entire Maginot line, and many German corps began marching toward Paris from the east. Again, the weather has been good!
Italy continued to reinforce North Africa. The small naval detachment hurried toward Kiel to seek shelter... war is about to come to them.
China decided to abandon all of her positions defending Nanning, Changsha, and Chengchow, and Japan happily marched into all 3 cities, plus Paotaw. There is much optimism among the Japanese leadership. Many believed the Chinese may surrender soon should we offer them a decent peace term. However, despite all diplomatic efforts, the Chinese simply refused to talk...Battle erupted west of Wuhan, where some Chinese units were badly damaged. Intelligence reported 3 to 4 elite Chinese units were formed from the survivors of Nanning etc... what survivors? They didn't even fight in Nanning...

Jan 19, 1939
Germany began its assault on Paris. The 2 French units on the north and northeast of Paris, who hadn't had the time to dig in, were destroyed. Paris the city itself will be assaulted in the next turn. Bombing raids and preliminary attacks were already launched.
Italy joined the war! Nobody thought the war would come to Italy so soon. This was both good and bad! There hadn't been enough preparation for the war yet. Troops were mostly under strength. While the 2 naval detachment ships were able to find shelter in the Baltic sea, the main Italian fleet is now cornered in the Adriatic sea, not knowing what is going to happen to them.
Japan explored further past Nanning, Changsha and Chengchow, and dealt some damage to the Chinese units encountered. Full support was given to the assault toward Ichang. The fort to the northeast was captured and destroyed, while the unit defending it eliminated. Now the Chinese army defending the other fort is in danger of getting cut off.

[HamburgerMeat]

Attacking the Italian Navy:

Italy joined the war last turn due to the speed of the axis advance. However, even if the axis player purchased maritime bombers on the first turn, it is impossible for them to have been produced by this turn. This knowledge, coupled with luftwaffe sightings in France, gives me confidence to attack the Italian navy in port. I end up destroying one battleship and one heavy cruiser

[HamburgerMeat]

I also send a French suicide corp via long-range amphib to land in Albania to trigger Italian national morale loss

[HamburgerMeat]

Looks like this is going to be an educational AAR for me as well! In April 1940, the Axis have taken Lithuania and Latvia. Although the USSR is alarmed (68% mobilization), I imagine that Barbarossa will be launched in a couple of turns. Now I see the source of Cpuncher's confidence: with an extra year of war to take the USSR, it is very unlikely that the USSR will be able to hold. If I recall correctly, the USA does not increase mobilization when the USSR is invaded.

With the extra year of war, I expect that this game will go to Cpuncher. I will continue to play to see what happens, but I expect that Axis players will/should mimic this strategy of taking the Baltic states before the soviets can, then attacking the USSR in the spring/summer of 1940.

And I don't think there is any counterplay to this. Even if the entire British Empire comes to France, they cannot stop the Germans from taking the Baltic states. The devs will likely address this in the next patch.

[Marcinos1985]

A nasty surprise indeed. What is unit count by now? Germans probably still play by themselves, no Romania, Bulgaria etc.
Personally I hardly believe this strategy will be adressed soon, it wasn't talked that much (at all?) and what would be an easy solution? Tinkering only with mobilization may be not enough.
BTW, is such a strategy good in WiE?

[HamburgerMeat]

In WiE, I always toyed around with the idea of a amphibious invasion of Estonia in May 1940, but I only performed it a few times. It did not have counterplay at the time as it only mobilized the USSR by ~20% (not sure if that's the case now).

By taking Estonia, you get both of the following:

1. Deny the USSR the ability to annex the other Baltic states, which makes them easy pickings in Barbarossa
2. Leningrad is only a stone's throw away

Nonetheless, with this strategy you still invade in 1941. In WiE a 1940 invasion is NOT optimal due to the greater difficulty taking France out + the greater distances required to cover the USSR


Due to the shorter distances in WaW, I did not bother with the Estonia strategy. But Cpuncher's approach is making me rethink the optimal approach for invading the USSR. Before, I was of the mindset that the best move is to wait until early 1941 to mix/max MPP discrepancy between Germany and the USSR. But now I think that Cpuncher's approach is much better, as the power level between level 1 infantry weps + tanks VS level 0 infantry weps is greater than level 2 infantry weps + tanks VS level 1 infantry weps. This, coupled with the extra year of fighting, is likely much more optimal than simply waiting until 1941.


If nothing is changed, the only thing that one can do is attempt to hold France as long as possible (sealion be damned) by bringing as much of the British Empire over as quickly as possible

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Cpuncher

For the sake of this thread that HambugerMeat wanted it to be an educational one, I will talk more about game Tips and Choices/decisions (for beginners/intermediate players) rather than much detailed AAR.

For Germany, speed is of utmost importance. It must use its superb military assets to gain real estate as quickly as possible. The plan is to take Poland in 1 or 2 Axis turns (All turn numbers I use here will be Axis turns, not game turns). Dow Denmark on turn 2 and take it on turn 3. Dow and take Belgium on Turn 4, and move into northern France on Turn 5 (late Dec 1939)...

Although taking Poland in 1 turn is better, taking it in 2 turns is not bad either. It allows a reduced Russian mobilization when they agree to the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact (if you take Poland in 1 turn then Russia won't have the option to turn down the pact but won't take the mobilization penalty either), and some extra National Morale Bonus by finishing up a few isolated Polish troops. Since you only need to leave a couple Armies/Tanks plus enough corps to finish off Poland in turn 2, majority of them can still be operated to Belgium border and upgraded, and take Belgium in Turn 4.

To Dow Denmark on Turn 2, I would move 1 corps to its border and upgrade my Med Bomber on turn 1. Sometimes 1 of the 2 Tac Bombers is not needed to take Warsaw and I would also move it within range of Copenhagen. Upon Dow, Denmark will have a strength 1 garrison which for most part can be taken out by the upgraded Med Bomber. Occasionally the Med Bomber will fail then the back up Tac Bomber if it's available. If not then I will have to move all 3 bombers in range to take it out in Turn 3, which will really hurt the Belgium/France side...luckily this hasn't happened in any of my PBEM games yet.

To Dow Denmark seems a no brainer to me. It only mobilize Russia a little bit, but not US. For most part I'm more concerned of US mobilization than Russia. I'm pretty confident in defeating Russia in the current game setup, while early US mobilization can be a huge problem down the road. Taking Denmark early give the added bonus of having Iceland and hence the port of Julianehåb available to Axis for 6 months-ish until the Allies can take it in April 1940. Should any German Naval units getting cornered in that area it can hold out in the port and tie up many Allied Naval units for quite many turns.

Nice tips I really like the Iceland trick! Gonna have to try this now!

[Cpuncher]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Nice tips I really like the Iceland trick! Gonna have to try this now!

Sorry Tanaka, it actually doesn't work. Julianehåb is Greenland, not Iceland. I got mixed up. I thought it should work as I described, but Iceland actually doesn't go Axis before UK take it.

[HamburgerMeat]

The game is over, though I will play a few more turns before calling it quits.

In the next several pictures I have provided locations where one can build additional fortifications, depending on which front you are focusing on defending (however, extensive fortifications are not possible with a 1940 invasion). You cannot cover all three areas, so instead I recommend covering two of three: