DL, MDL and naval reaction

[Ian R]

Gentlemen, you are over-complicating this -

1. Get plenty of air search working to spot subs; this will also make them dive and reduce their ability to find targets.

2. ASW TFs under the air search "seem" (a purely anecdotal observation) to have a better chance of finding them and attacking them, but...

3. One of the reasons for putting escorts with convoys is to make the subs go to the convoy for targets, and in effect put themselves in range of the escorts' weapons.

4. The concept of hunter-killer groups (even with CVEs) roaming around the ocean looking for subs is flawed. The hunter killer groups in the Atlantic did not really do that, they reinforced the points where the U-boats gathered - attacking a convoy. You can do this in the game - have an ASW TF follow a convoy at zero hex range. The cargo ships will refuel it and it will put on a separate attack to the escorts.

The possibility of an ASW group actually finding a submarine in a large patch of ocean, unless the submarine attacks it, is, whilst not completely far fetched or fanciful, too remote to expend scarce resources on.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453

Interesting.

Reading the manual p.131-132, it seems to say that
First, combat has to be initiated by submarine affected by following factors
1. Sub’s maximum speed
2. TF’s cruise speed
3. Sub crew’s experience
4. Prior detection of the sub

Then, within that combat sequence
1. Escorts have a chance to detect sub early
2. Sub attack (if not detected during previous step)
3. Sub dive to escape
4. Escort attack

Manual says nothing about surface ships initiating combat against subs. If they do, then what are the parameters that govern the chance of surface TFs initiating combat against a sub in the same hex?

If that section really is headed "Sub vs Surface", it might not cover "Surface vs Sub" - i.e. an ASW TF hunting for subs.
At any rate, the sub seems to get the first opportunity to decide whether to attack or slink away, then the ASW capable ships get a chance to detect. If the ASW does detect, it has to be able to get in position to attack. If it cannot, it searches and the battle may or may not continue depending on continuing detection of the sub and the ammo supply of ASW vessels.

Note that earlier detection of the sub makes it much more likely that escorts/ASW ships will find the sub before it attacks and non-ASW ships will avoid the sub in the same hex. So (air) Naval Search to detect the sub, ASW patrol (air) to localize the contact and ASW TFs to attack the sub are the best way of dealing with them.

[Lowpe]

Do you guys ever bother to read a combat report:

ASW attack near Singora at 51,72

Japanese Ships
BB Haruna
BB Kongo
CA Atago
CA Takao
CL Jintsu
DD Michishio
DD Oshio
DD Asashio
DD Hibiki
DD Akatsuki
DD Arashio

Allied Ships
SS KXVII, hits 3

SS KXVII is sighted by escort

A submarine attack:

Submarine attack near Iwo-jima at 106,81

Japanese Ships
xAKL Taganoura Maru, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage

Allied Ships
SS S-39

xAKL Taganoura Maru is sighted by SS S-39
SS S-39 launches 2 torpedoes at xAKL Taganoura M

[rustysi]

Yes, I do.

What's your point?

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Do you guys ever bother to read a combat report:

ASW attack near Singora at 51,72

Japanese Ships
BB Haruna
BB Kongo
CA Atago
CA Takao
CL Jintsu
DD Michishio
DD Oshio
DD Asashio
DD Hibiki
DD Akatsuki
DD Arashio

Allied Ships
SS KXVII, hits 3

SS KXVII is sighted by escort

A submarine attack:

Submarine attack near Iwo-jima at 106,81

Japanese Ships
xAKL Taganoura Maru, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage

Allied Ships
SS S-39

xAKL Taganoura Maru is sighted by SS S-39
SS S-39 launches 2 torpedoes at xAKL Taganoura M

From one of rustisy’s links (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4611298 :

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

An ASW attack is notated by "SS Saury is located", not "is sighted". The latter tells you that Saury was making an approach on the TF to make an attack, but the escort spotted it first.

So, both of your combat reports are really sub attacks, with the difference being that in the first one, the sub was detected by the escorts before the actual attack.

[alimentary]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
So, both of your combat reports are really sub attacks, with the difference being that in the first one, the sub was detected by the escorts before the actual attack.

To make sure that I comprehend what you are saying...

A sub with no torpedo ammo, no gun ammo, an utterly non-aggressive commander and no DL on anything in the hex will not attack anything and will, consequently, be immune from attack from surface ASW forces in the same hex regardless of the sub's own DL?

[rustysi]

So, both of your combat reports are really sub attacks, with the difference being that in the first one, the sub was detected by the escorts before the actual attack.

That printout is of two separate attacks.

In the first, the TF attacking the sub is not an ASW TF. Its ASW elements just happened to detect the sub first.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: alimentary

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
So, both of your combat reports are really sub attacks, with the difference being that in the first one, the sub was detected by the escorts before the actual attack.

To make sure that I comprehend what you are saying...

A sub with no torpedo ammo, no gun ammo, an utterly non-aggressive commander and no DL on anything in the hex will not attack anything and will, consequently, be immune from attack from surface ASW forces in the same hex regardless of the sub's own DL?

The short answer, and the only one I'll give here, is no.

So what happens if I cross the international date line? Guys, you are making this too 'involved', and I for one am done.

A better option is just to sit back and enjoy the game. You are not going to get 'pat' answers to much of anything in this game. If that is what you're use to, go back to playing whatever you played before.

Sorry to be so blunt, but...[:(]

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: alimentary

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
So, both of your combat reports are really sub attacks, with the difference being that in the first one, the sub was detected by the escorts before the actual attack.

To make sure that I comprehend what you are saying...

A sub with no torpedo ammo, no gun ammo, an utterly non-aggressive commander and no DL on anything in the hex will not attack anything and will, consequently, be immune from attack from surface ASW forces in the same hex regardless of the sub's own DL?

No, the sub has it's chance to attack, subject to a die roll. If the die roll says it should attack, the ammo state check says it cannot, so the attack is canceled. Now the ASW vessels have the opportunity to detect the sub. On a positive die roll they have the opportunity to try and attack it. And so it goes - all based on chances of taking action or not.